TOS myths and misconceptions...

[Captain Robert April]

Not quite. DeForest Kelley, James Doohan, Grace Lee Whitney, and George Takei all DID HAVE contracts. IIRC Nichelle Nichols was hired as a day-player, but they hired her a lot (same with Majel Barrett and John Winston). Walter Koenig was on contract starting in the 2nd season. Star Trek was made in the days before all contracted actors appeared in opening credits. The opening credit/closing credit thing is due to the way SAG contracts were in the 60's. The same thing happened with I Dream of Jeannie made around the same time - Bill Daily & Hayden Roarke were both on contract and major characters but they were put in the ending credits. This changed around the late 60's / early 70's timeframe.

According to Koenig, he was never under contract. By contrast, Grace Lee Whitney was signed as a regular.

In any case, Star Trek was not an ensemble show. The show had one star, William Shatner, two main co-stars, Nimoy and Kelley, and a fairly sizable cast of recurring actors.

Frankly, it's debatable just how well TNG worked as an ensemble show, and that one was set up as one. I think DS9 is probably the only one of the bunch that really delivered on that front.

 

[Mysterion]

Star Trek is about talking through one's problems, not fighting them out. Have people who say this ever watched TOS? This is a TNG idea. Many eps would have Picard lecturing a bunch of people that their way of life is wrong. TOS had battles, action, and excitement pretty much every week!

This.

There seems to be more and more revisionism applied to TOS by folks whose first Trek exposure was TNG. Very annoying.

 

[Captain Robert April]

"The best diplomat I know is a fully activated phaser bank." Scotty, "A Taste of Armageddon"

 

[JoeD80]

According to Koenig, he was never under contract.

Whether he was or not wasn't my point; my point was about opening/ending credits. You can't tell from the original series credits who did or not because it was before SAG had it in the MBA to always appear in the opening credits if you were on contract.

 

[Captain Robert April]

^ True. But my point had nothing to do with screen credits, just who was the star, who were the supporting leads, and who were background players. It can be a bit of shocker to go through the listings on imdb.com and see just how many episodes "the other four" weren't in. And most of the ones they were in, as far as their characters were concerned, consisted almost solely of scenes on the bridge, which means in the five or six days of production, they were there maybe two or three, if that. As Shatner said in a Starlog interview some years back, they were barely there, compared to Shatner, Nimoy, and Kelley, who sometimes were in virtually every scene, which means five, six, sometimes seven days of work (and they wondered why Shatner didn't want to hang out after work? He needed to get home to remind his kids what he looked like and get back to reality for a while; considering that workload is probably what delivered the final blow to his marriage, we're lucky he didn't decide to never have anything to do with Star Trek ever again after it was cancelled).

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I'm with yah.

Me too. And I liked AotC and RotS.

I could give a fuck about "the appearence of Jar Jar in TPM" - I didn't actually dislike the character or see him as anything out of the ordinary, as SW characters go - but nonetheless I don't think much of Star Wars from ROTJ onward.

A lot more was wrong with TPM than Jar Jar just as a lot more was wrong with RotJ than those fucking Ewoks but both are pretty emblematic of what went wrong in both films.

 

[Kirk here]

A lot more was wrong with TPM than Jar Jar just as a lot more was wrong with RotJ than those fucking Ewoks but both are pretty emblematic of what went wrong in both films.

The main thing wrong with RotJ, IMnsHO, is that they changed Han Solo into a doofus for comedy relief. He goes from hot-shot, shoot-from-the-hip (byebye, Greedo), bad-ass, into a jokester who taps Stormtroopers on the shoulder instead of just blasting them.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

To its credit, though. TOS was sometimes intentionally vague about Earth History. They made plenty of misteps talking about what went down in the 1990's but back then that seemed so far into the future.

I suppose you could bust the myth that TOS takes place in the 23rd Century. That was never really nailed down while the series was on the air and not officially "canonized" until TWOK in 1982.

I'm always a bit surprised that they went with the 1990s, only three decades from their present. Given Kahn's age he would have been born in the 1950s. The standard "100 years from the present day" trope would have worked better. And Kirk's line about Khan "sleeping" for 200 years would have fit with the 23rd Century concept.

I think we can also appreciate that back in the day they had little to no inkling that Star Trek would take off in popularity after its cancellation and remain a phenomenon for decades to follow. They more likely thought once the show was done after a few reruns it would be forgotten and any references to the 1990s wouldn't matter.

Well, the eugenics movement started in the 1920's and held on until World War II, even after in a few places. The idea Khan was born in the late 1950's isn't out of line. Remember, he's described as the product of selective breeding, not genetic engineering (despite Chekov's line in TWoK).

 

[T'Girl]

Khan ruled over India and other places. It's been pointed out before that in the traditional india calander the 1990's would be the 2050's in the western calander and perhaps Spock was being culturally sensative.

Or maybe (my opinion) the entire Human race, in the 23th century, uses the India calender. Can't be afraid of new ideas.

Well, the eugenics movement started in the 1920's and held on until World War II, even after in a few places. The idea Khan was born in the late 1950's isn't out of line. Remember, he's described as the product of selective breeding, not genetic engineering (despite Chekov's line in TWoK).

There was a American Eugenics Society pre-WWII, it didn't disappear so much as simply changed it's name. Give the age of Montaban when space seed was filmed you can basically guess at Khans age when he came out of the freezer. And Khan certainly doesn't look like a first effort or a first generation. The selective breeding program might have been running for multiple generation before Khan was born. So the whole progam may have begun in the 1800's.

The whole "augment thing applied to Khan leave my cold.

Never have cared for most retcon.

 

[T'Girl]

Khan ruled over India and other places. It's been pointed out before that in the traditional india calander the 1990's would be the 2050's in the western calander and perhaps Spock was being culturally sensative.

Or maybe (my opinion) the entire Human race, in the 23th century, uses the India calender. Can't be afraid of new ideas.

Well, the eugenics movement started in the 1920's and held on until World War II, even after in a few places. The idea Khan was born in the late 1950's isn't out of line. Remember, he's described as the product of selective breeding, not genetic engineering (despite Chekov's line in TWoK).

There was a American Eugenics Society pre-WWII, it didn't disappear so much as simply changed it's name. Give the age of Montaban when space seed was filmed you can basically guess at Khans age when he came out of the freezer. And Khan certainly doesn't look like a first effort or a first generation. The selective breeding program might have been running for multiple generation before Khan was born. So the whole progam may have begun in the 1800's.

The whole "augment thing applied to Khan leave my cold.

Never have cared for most retcon.

 

[Mytran]

Well, selective breeding is a form of genetic engineering.

 

[RAMA]

Star Trek is about talking through one's problems, not fighting them out. Have people who say this ever watched TOS? This is a TNG idea. Many eps would have Picard lecturing a bunch of people that their way of life is wrong. TOS had battles, action, and excitement pretty much every week!

"TNG idea?" "battles, action ... pretty much every week?" Nonsense.

Kirk talked their way out of plenty of problems. Corbomite anyone? How about computers talked into suicide? ERROR! ERROR?! MUST ELIMINATE! Etc, etc. A seeming first for a TV show, in the earlier days of sci-fi.* No he did not do it exclusively, but their first production/"real" episode ended on that note. If Kirk could talk, he would go that way, instead of the myth of Kirk kissing and/or zapping everyone.


* Telling of the times is that NBC chose to air a "zap the monster ending" episode first, instead of a talking ending!

Actually it was TOS that more often argued someone else's culture was wrong, this was normally because the writer's arranged for this to be so they could make a point. Picard did this far less than Kirk and co.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

Some of mine:
- Kirk slept with everyone women he encountered. Not true and another concurrent thread is also debunking this.

Well this is worded very carefully, but although he certainly did not sleep with every woman he encountered, it was fairly common for the hero of the time to "get the girl". Kirk did have his fair share of one night stands, etc.

- Kirk acted first and thought later. I disagree. Kirk didn't get where he is by the seat of his pants and dumb luck. He has fifteen years experience and training that got him where he is. He has an adept mind that can consider many options quickly, certainly more quickly than other commanders we've seen in later series.

He did consider options, although there are examples where he acted unilaterally, and almost on impulse. To TOS' credit, these events were almost always regretted by Kirk. Other Starfleet captains in other shows are as highly trained and experienced as Kirk (if not more so), and often are more realistically portrayed consulting with their officers before making decisions.

- Kirk speaks like every word is a sentence. Not true. Indeed this mannerism has been caricatured for years by comedians, but Kirk only really once spoke blatantly like that in one episode, "The Lights Of Zetar."

Ehh, there were more episodes than that...but Shatner's acting style back in those days didn't bother me that much.

- The Enterprise is the Federation flagship. No, never referenced as such in TOS.

Most likely it wasn't in TOS. I believe it was in STTMP or STIII (Klingons)where it was mentioned as being the flagship.

- Star Trek is a Utopian future. No, not in TOS. This is a TNG concept.

None of the Star Trek's are utopian, in the sense that they are far from perfect. We'd have to define what perfect means anyway, and that's problematic. STNG does realistically portray a more advanced social society based on the improved human-alien society of TOS.

- The Federation is a moneyless society. No, not in TOS. Later films and TNG referenced this idea.

It is a moneyless society. They used credits. I'm assuming there was a further advancement in economics far beyond our understanding where even this system seemed to disappear by STNG.

- Shuttlecraft are only sublight capable. No, the anecdotal evidence onscreen clearly argues that shuttlecraft would have to be warp capable to do what we see them doing.

This one is pretty obvious..they have ramscoops, and a shuttlecraft chased the Enterprise as early as the Menagerie.

Well, in light of this new evidence I have come to a new conclusion on women becoming Starship Captains within Starfleet in the TOS Series.

Ignoring the series Star Trek: Enterprise, I have concluded that women are actually allowed to be Captains within Starfleet, but none of them have reached the level of Captain yet within Starfleet at this particular point in time. Thus, why Lester says to Kirk, "Your world of Starship Captains doesn't admit women..."It isn't fair". And Kirk agrees with her that it isn't fair. Not that it was impossible for women to become Captains or anything. At the time the test to be Captain within Starfleet was probably extremely hard, and no woman had actually attained such a position yet (because of the intense difficulty of it). Otherwise Kirk would have sited an example of a female Starfleet Captain to her.

.

Lester clearly states the Starfleet doesn't "admit" women, which would suggest she means in a professional sense, not personal. Its almost certain that there are no female Starfleet captains, and none in evidence during the series. However....I don't think this is because it was the intention of the producers and writers of the first 2 seasons, but mainly because the new producers of the 3rd season ASSUMED this was so, just because there weren't any portrayed and because of their own biases. The lack of motivation to fix this problem from the shows original producers is the real issue here. Happily Enterprise restored some balance and showed us some women in command roles, and restored the credibility lost in the laziness of 3rd season TOS.

RAMA

 

[EEE]

Star Trek is about talking through one's problems, not fighting them out. Have people who say this ever watched TOS? This is a TNG idea. Many eps would have Picard lecturing a bunch of people that their way of life is wrong. TOS had battles, action, and excitement pretty much every week!

"TNG idea?" "battles, action ... pretty much every week?" Nonsense.

Kirk talked their way out of plenty of problems. Corbomite anyone? How about computers talked into suicide? ERROR! ERROR?! MUST ELIMINATE! Etc, etc. A seeming first for a TV show, in the earlier days of sci-fi.* No he did not do it exclusively, but their first production/"real" episode ended on that note. If Kirk could talk, he would go that way, instead of the myth of Kirk kissing and/or zapping everyone.


* Telling of the times is that NBC chose to air a "zap the monster ending" episode first, instead of a talking ending!

Actually it was TOS that more often argued someone else's culture was wrong, this was normally because the writer's arranged for this to be so they could make a point. Picard did this far less than Kirk and co.

RAMA

Exactly my point you quoted. (although I have no idea how often Picard talked his way out overall... not my cup of earl grey tea, that show)

 

[RAMA]

"TNG idea?" "battles, action ... pretty much every week?" Nonsense.

Kirk talked their way out of plenty of problems. Corbomite anyone? How about computers talked into suicide? ERROR! ERROR?! MUST ELIMINATE! Etc, etc. A seeming first for a TV show, in the earlier days of sci-fi.* No he did not do it exclusively, but their first production/"real" episode ended on that note. If Kirk could talk, he would go that way, instead of the myth of Kirk kissing and/or zapping everyone.


* Telling of the times is that NBC chose to air a "zap the monster ending" episode first, instead of a talking ending!

Actually it was TOS that more often argued someone else's culture was wrong, this was normally because the writer's arranged for this to be so they could make a point. Picard did this far less than Kirk and co.

RAMA

Exactly my point you quoted. (although I have no idea how often Picard talked his way out overall... not my cup of earl grey tea, that show)

The point is Picard didn't lecture about the theme of the plot...because STNG didn't create "straw cultures" (as Gerrold likes to call them) for the crew to knock down. They take aliens a bit more seriously... and their points had to be made in a more sophisticated manner.

RAMA

 

[EEE]

The point is Picard didn't lecture about the theme of the plot...

Your point may be that, however the subject of the sub-thread you quoted was whether the myth of Kirk blasting everything in sight was true.

They take aliens a bit more seriously...

The early Ferrengi, the Yar-killing lava monster, Wes-Wesley Crusher... I can see the merit of your point.

 

[Maurice]

Most likely it wasn't in TOS. I believe it was in STTMP or STIII (Klingons)where it was mentioned as being the flagship.

I don't believe that was in either of those films.

 

[Warped9]

I'm not one hundred percent certain, but I'm pretty sure the flagship thing got started in TNG.

 

[Londo]

Most likely it wasn't in TOS. I believe it was in STTMP or STIII (Klingons)where it was mentioned as being the flagship.

I don't believe that was in either of those films.

Except ofc that it was a flagship in TMP-TSFS as Admiral Kirk would have (theoretically) flown a flag.
Although his grade reduction in TMP may exclude it, TWOK and the first part of TSFS certainly.
I guess when Commodore Stocker commanded in "The Deadly Years" she was also a flagship, flying a broad pennant, similarly in "The Doomsday Machine."
I doubt they ever put a flag out the back, but I bet if Ent-A ever had a Flag officer they would fly one in the room with the old wheel.

 

[BillJ]

I'm not one hundred percent certain, but I'm pretty sure the flagship thing got started in TNG.

It was. Never was the Enterprise referred to as the flagship until TNG.