And yet the alien cultures (or Picard's interaction with them) were a heck of a lot less interesting.
TOS myths and misconceptions...
- Thread starter Warped9
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And yet the alien cultures (or Picard's interaction with them) were a heck of a lot less interesting.
Well, I do think Kirk spoke like every word was a sentence on its own!
Let's see. Do you remember those rumors that got spread about Spock having male genitalia on his back ... and Vulcans getting drunk on chocolate? No proof ... merely loosely established among the fandom after a lot of talk.
Let's see. Do you remember those rumors that got spread about Spock having male genitalia on his back ... and Vulcans getting drunk on chocolate? No proof ... merely loosely established among the fandom after a lot of talk.
Actually, she says "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women." If she had said Starfleet didn't admit women, that would have been easily refuted: not only do we have Uhura and Rand and Chapel, Lester herself says in the line immediately previous that she had been "at Starfleet" with Kirk.
Janice Lester was a loon, and cannot be taken as an authority on anything. She also says that Kirk has always wanted to literally smother her (to kill her by suffocation), but lacks the courage to do so. Was she right, or was she delusional?
As the conversation they are having pertains directly to their earlier relationship and its reasons for ending, it is pretty clear that she isn't saying that there was no place in Starfleet for female Captains, but rather that there was no place in Kirk's life as a Captain for a woman. His ambition to be a Captain left no room in his life for a serious long-term relationship.
Kirk expresses a slightly different view. It is clear from his comments that he believed they were simply each incapable of the change needed to fit into the other's life: he did have room for a wife in his life, but it must be a wife who accepted that Starfleet came first. And he regretted that she couldn't be that wife.
As others have said above (and somewhat surprising given the era the episode was made), they even manage to avoid suggesting that Lester was unsuited to command because she was a woman: she was unsuited to command because she's a loon.
Given the amount of warfare, boarder clashes, killed off lovers, dead parents, on going problems with medical diseases, I would say no not a utopian exsistance
There's a lack of continuity between the "simply cash-less debit card economy" and the "everythings free economy." With a little stretching you can reconcile the debit card future in the 23th/24th century, with the rare free reference. But the opposite is a lot harder, there are a large number of "exchange of value" references in Star Trek that are incompatible with a everything's free economy.It is a moneyless society. They used credits. I'm assuming there was a further advancement in economics far beyond our understanding where even this system seemed to disappear by STNG.
- The Federation is a moneyless society. No, not in TOS. Later films and TNG referenced this idea.
Definitely have warp speed, maybe just not a lot of range at high speed. At warp six between planets in a few minute or hours. slower at warp four or five between star systems in days or weeks. When Kirk and Mendez chased after the Enterprise at over warp six (they were trying to overtake her), they ran out of fuel in a day. I find interesting Mendz's comment "and now we coast." were they coasting at warp speed? Gradually losing speed on some kind of sustainer.
JANICE: The year we were together at Starfleet is the only time in my life I was alive.
KIRK: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.
JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.
KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.
JANICE: I loved you. We could've roamed among the stars.
On reflection Janice would seem to be saying that Kirk's life as a starship captain precluded a on going affair with Janice. To paraphrase "Kirk's world of starship captains doesn't admit Janice." The first line I quoted suggests they were together at the academy (at, not in, Starfleet), either when Kirk was a midshipman or later when he was a instructor. Perhaps Kirk got his assignment to a ship, but there was a option of staying at a assignment that would have left Kirk and Janice together. As would later happen with Riker and Troi, Kirk choose to concentrate on he career, unlike with Riker and Troi, Kirk and Janice didn't part amicably.
Which doesn't mean there were in fact any Human female starship captains, certainly none of the observed "canon" starship captains were women. In the 1960's culture women didn't command ships, in the year 2010 culture they do. We're making the assumption that the future is going to be like it is now, that what (to a degree) the producers in the 1960's were doing. A century from now there might again be a culture of no female captains and then firty more years their back. Hell in some of the science fiction I've read we could go through a period of no male starship captains. Kirk's era may simply ben a "no females" in command time period.
And yet the alien cultures (or Picard's interaction with them) were a heck of a lot less interesting.
Well that's opinion, not really shared by everyone. I'd run out of space listing the interesting alien interactions in STNG...starting with Q in episode 1, the Traveler, Crystalline Entity, Binars, continuing with the Borg in Season 2, Darmok, Inner Light, Masks, et al.
RAMA
And yet the alien cultures (or Picard's interaction with them) were a heck of a lot less interesting.
Well that's opinion, not really shared by everyone.
RAMA
That's true, the only people who feel that way were folks who watched TNG.
Given the amount of warfare, boarder clashes, killed off lovers, dead parents, on going problems with medical diseases, I would say no not a utopian exsistance
There's a lack of continuity between the "simply cash-less debit card economy" and the "everythings free economy." With a little stretching you can reconcile the debit card future in the 23th/24th century, with the rare free reference. But the opposite is a lot harder, there are a large number of "exchange of value" references in Star Trek that are incompatible with a everything's free economy.
Definitely have warp speed, maybe just not a lot of range at high speed. At warp six between planets in a few minute or hours. slower at warp four or five between star systems in days or weeks. When Kirk and Mendez chased after the Enterprise at over warp six (they were trying to overtake her), they ran out of fuel in a day. I find interesting Mendz's comment "and now we coast." were they coasting at warp speed? Gradually losing speed on some kind of sustainer.
JANICE: The year we were together at Starfleet is the only time in my life I was alive.
KIRK: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.
JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.
KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.
JANICE: I loved you. We could've roamed among the stars.
On reflection Janice would seem to be saying that Kirk's life as a starship captain precluded a on going affair with Janice. To paraphrase "Kirk's world of starship captains doesn't admit Janice." The first line I quoted suggests they were together at the academy (at, not in, Starfleet), either when Kirk was a midshipman or later when he was a instructor. Perhaps Kirk got his assignment to a ship, but there was a option of staying at a assignment that would have left Kirk and Janice together. As would later happen with Riker and Troi, Kirk choose to concentrate on he career, unlike with Riker and Troi, Kirk and Janice didn't part amicably.
Which doesn't mean there were in fact any Human female starship captains, certainly none of the observed "canon" starship captains were women. In the 1960's culture women didn't command ships, in the year 2010 culture they do. We're making the assumption that the future is going to be like it is now, that what (to a degree) the producers in the 1960's were doing. A century from now there might again be a culture of no female captains and then firty more years their back. Hell in some of the science fiction I've read we could go through a period of no male starship captains. Kirk's era may simply ben a "no females" in command time period.
Seems like they can go far in Starfleet but not command...there's a glass ceiling, and that's what Lester is on about. Again though, I think the dialogue is directly reflective of the issues in production in the 3rd season, rather than deliberate neglect.
And yet the alien cultures (or Picard's interaction with them) were a heck of a lot less interesting.
Well that's opinion, not really shared by everyone.
RAMA
That's true, the only people who feel that way were folks who watched TNG.
Oh you mean the 17 million avg viewers a week, who kept the show on with record ratings for 7 years? Oh yes, must be those.
Oh you mean the 17 million avg viewers a week, who kept the show on with record ratings for 7 years? Oh yes, must be those.
Or the ones who were so bored that they abandoned ship after the original run leaving TNG to the 1am pre-infomercial time slot (or on cable).
TOS definitely had longer legs when it came to syndication. Which is funny considering there is so much more TNG for people to watch.
There's also a lot more tv out there, period. Best not to get in a pissing contest with TNG over numbers, and this coming from a guy who is pretty vocally a TOS-only kinda guy.
There really is nothing to debate about both shows performance in strip syndication. Nor is there really any debate about which part of the franchise performed better theatrically (without counting Star Trek 2009).
I really liked TNG (especially seasons 1 & 2)... but it's day is over. And it's day came and went a hell of a lot faster than TOS.
And I suppose that has nothing to do with the fact that the show is widely available on DVD season sets, whereas most Star Trek fans back in the day could only get their Trek fix by watching the show in syndication?
I'm not really a big TNG fan anymore -- there's only a handful of episodes I'll watch -- but come on. TNG was an unqualified hit. To say that fans "only" watched the show in great numbers for the entirety of its seven-year run is a little silly.
On reflection Janice would seem to be saying that Kirk's life as a starship captain precluded a on going affair with Janice. To paraphrase "Kirk's world of starship captains doesn't admit Janice." The first line I quoted suggests they were together at the academy (at, not in, Starfleet), either when Kirk was a midshipman or later when he was a instructor. Perhaps Kirk got his assignment to a ship, but there was a option of staying at a assignment that would have left Kirk and Janice together. As would later happen with Riker and Troi, Kirk choose to concentrate on he career, unlike with Riker and Troi, Kirk and Janice didn't part amicably.
Which doesn't mean there were in fact any Human female starship captains, certainly none of the observed "canon" starship captains were women. In the 1960's culture women didn't command ships, in the year 2010 culture they do. We're making the assumption that the future is going to be like it is now, that what (to a degree) the producers in the 1960's were doing. A century from now there might again be a culture of no female captains and then firty more years their back. Hell in some of the science fiction I've read we could go through a period of no male starship captains. Kirk's era may simply ben a "no females" in command time period.
I agree with this theoretical interpretation. However the writers and casting people are just appalling at putting it into practice. I'd guesstimate that less that 10% of admirals, captains, and first officers we've seen throughout Trek's entire history have been women. If you only include speaking parts the ratio drops even further.
For, example the decision to leave out Number One in NuTrek means that we have no female senior officers in significant roles. The Starfleet Panel has at least two women on it but they are spread out at the fringes so that we generally only see the male admirals except in the wide shots, and none of them have any lines. Worse still, on Vulcan, tradtionally a matriarchal society, we see only one woman on a four man science panel and she gets no lines. T'Pau, the female vulcan leader is also absent, although she may be a non-speaking character.
Overall, an unimpressive attempt at showing there is no glass ceiling in Trek!
But every show that is reran in strip syndication is also available on DVD. Every show that is reran in strip syndication also has lower total viewers because more competition exists than in the seventies.
Even with those points factored in TNG was unable to compete in prime strip syndication timeslots.
I think that people just moved on after TNG.
I agree and this is not a slight on the quality of the series. It was an outstanding show, one I looked forward to with great anticipation every week.
But, DVDs or not, TNG just doesn't have the same rerun value. TOS was an action adventure SF series. TNG was primarily a sci-fi drama. TNG had some action, but it wasn't that kind of show, especially after the first season or two. Plus, they seemed to be hit harder with budgets than the original when it came to showing a battle. I remember them being relegated to either one or two quick shots, or as tactical graphics. TNG had some killer stories, and the middle four seasons were really upper level television. But - it wasn't "fun." At least, not regularly. It had its own identity.
So, while I do go back once in a while to TNG, it's never nearly as often as TOS.
Ayway, this is waaaaaay off topic. Sorry.
Few shows are as re-watchable as TOS, that I agree with. However, if TOS had to face the same syndication market today as TNG did, I imagine it would have fared only marginally better despite being a monumentally better show.
Oh you mean the 17 million avg viewers a week, who kept the show on with record ratings for 7 years? Oh yes, must be those.
What? You mean the show ST:TNG; which was commissioned only after seeing the POPULARITY of the Original Star Trek series that lasted for decades and spawned 4 successful feature films prior to the debut of ST:TNG - (btw, whose rating were anything but spectacular for the first 2 1/2 seasons)?
Actually, the ratings were high for every season, first and second included. The quality of the show, now, is a different matter...That's true, the only people who feel that way were folks who watched TNG.
Oh you mean the 17 million avg viewers a week, who kept the show on with record ratings for 7 years? Oh yes, must be those.
What? You mean the show ST:TNG; which was commissioned only after seeing the POPULARITY of the Original Star Trek series that lasted for decades and spawned 4 successful feature films prior to the debut of ST:TNG - (btw, whose rating were anything but spectacular for the first 2 1/2 seasons)?
Not sure of the accuracy of this (source), but...
- Fall 1987 - Spring 1988: 8.55 Million viewers
- Fall 1988 - Spring 1989: 9.14 Million
- Fall 1989 - Spring 1990: 9.77 Million
- Fall 1990 - Spring 1991: 10.58 Million
- Fall 1991 - Spring 1992: 11.50 Million
- Fall 1992 - Spring 1993: 10.83 Million
- Fall 1993 - Spring 1994: 9.78 Million
- Fall 1994 - Spring 1995: 7.05 Million
- Fall 1995 - Spring 1996: 6.42 Million
- Fall 1996 - Spring 1997: 5.03 Million
- Fall 1997 - Spring 1998: 4.53 Million
- Fall 1998 - Spring 1999: 4.00 Million
TNG ended in '94, so something ain't right.
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