TOS myths and misconceptions...

[EEE]

Star Trek is about talking through one's problems, not fighting them out. Have people who say this ever watched TOS? This is a TNG idea. Many eps would have Picard lecturing a bunch of people that their way of life is wrong. TOS had battles, action, and excitement pretty much every week!

"TNG idea?" "battles, action ... pretty much every week?" Nonsense.

Kirk talked their way out of plenty of problems. Corbomite anyone? How about computers talked into suicide? ERROR! ERROR?! MUST ELIMINATE! Etc, etc. A seeming first for a TV show, in the earlier days of sci-fi.* No he did not do it exclusively, but their first production/"real" episode ended on that note. If Kirk could talk, he would go that way, instead of the myth of Kirk kissing and/or zapping everyone.


* Telling of the times is that NBC chose to air a "zap the monster ending" episode first, instead of a talking ending!

 

[Warped9]

Ha, ha, ha... it's funny when an episode's original meaning is twisted around to fit what a person wants to see rather than what it really is.

I know. I did it with Star Trek: Enterprise because it is a horrid show that doesn't make any sense in the context of the Core Trek Time Line.

However, there is no good reason to take an Original Series episode out of context. Kirk doesn't disagree with her or look at her funny when she says what she says. In fact, he agrees with her that it isn't fair.

Kirk isn't treating her like an insane person. He is treating her with openness, honesty, and genuine care.

I mean, honestly. Show your parents and friends this episode and have them pay close attention to this scene. Replay it for them again at the end if necessary and ask them what they think this scene means before sharing your hypothesis with them.

Also, the show was made when women were not accepted in certain leadership type positions in the work force yet.

Clearly the series is a reflection or product of the times. That is one of the reasons why the pilot episode "The Cage" was not aired in the first place. The network didn't believe a woman should have had a leadership role on board a starship. And no. It wasn't because she was Gene's girl friend either. Here is a quote taken from Making of Star Trek Pilots.

Adding to the scenario, Nimoy explained, "The network eliminated one character entirely, the role of Number One...They told Gene to also get rid of the guy with the ears, insisting that the audience couldn't identify with an extra-terrestrial character. Gene battled this but was finally forced into a compromise. He felt the format badly needed the alien Spock, even if the price was the acceptance of 1960s style sexual inequality. A new pilot was written and Mr. Spock was in Number One's place as second-in-command as well as having some of the woman's computer mind qualities. Vulcan unemotionalism and logic came into being."

"The reasons were these: too cerebral, not enough action and adventure," he said. "'The Cage' didn't end with a chase and a right cross to the jaw, the way all manly films were supposed to end. There were no female leads then--women in those days were just set dressing. So, another thing they felt was wrong with our film was that we had Majel as a female second-in-command of the vessel. It's nice now, I'm sure, for the ladies to say, 'Well, the men did it,' but in the test reports, the women in the audience were saying, 'Who does she think she is?' They hated her. It is hard to believe that in 20 years, we have gone from a totally sexist society to where we are today--where all intelligent people certainly accept sexual equality. We've made progress.

Oh, and also, Assistant Managers can carry out General Manager duties. Doesn't make em General Managers, though.


Quoted Source:
http://www.earthsmightiest.com/fansites/startrek/news/?a=6323

It's long been debunked that GR cooked up the whole "NBC doesn't like the idea of a female 2nd in command because no one will like her" bullshit because maybe it made him feel better that NBC didn't like him displaying such nepotism. Majel Barrett was GR's extramarital girlfriend and everyone knew it.

No one is cooking up anything. You just haven't proven your case. The Janice Lester things doesn't hold water. And in that episode Kirk (in Lester's body) says it: Lester couldn't command because of lack of training and temperament. The episode shows she's unstable and erratic. She obviously didn't have the temperament (amongst other things) as an individual to command. There's nothing in there about gender.

 

[Vonstadt]

Janice Lester was a loon. When she says Kirk's world of starship command doesn't include women it doesn't mean Starfleet excludes women from command. It means Kirk's life and career of starship command excludes serious relationships. She wasn't just a loon, she was also a vindictive bitch as evidenced by what she tried to pull off.

This has always been my interpretation of the episode and its meaning and I grew up in that era and this is how my mother took the episode then and how my wife who has watched it with me took it now.

As well as my teenage daughter.

They held the same view of Pike's comment, he was grumbling his view not Starfleet's.

There is very little evidence in TOS that they couldn't command a ship. Just they were never shown on screen.

A sign of the times of the studio's, not the view of TOS's starfleet.

Vons

 

[Luther Sloan]

Well said people. I re-examined the episode and have come to a new alternate conclusion (which you may or may not like).

Here is the video that shows the line mentioned by Kirk (in Lester's body) that basically says: Lester couldn't command because of lack of training and temperament...

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/60243

Well, in light of this new evidence I have come to a new conclusion on women becoming Starship Captains within Starfleet in the TOS Series.

Ignoring the series Star Trek: Enterprise, I have concluded that women are actually allowed to be Captains within Starfleet, but none of them have reached the level of Captain yet within Starfleet at this particular point in time. Thus, why Lester says to Kirk, "Your world of Starship Captains doesn't admit women..."It isn't fair". And Kirk agrees with her that it isn't fair. Not that it was impossible for women to become Captains or anything. At the time the test to be Captain within Starfleet was probably extremely hard, and no woman had actually attained such a position yet (because of the intense difficulty of it). Otherwise Kirk would have sited an example of a female Starfleet Captain to her.

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/60122

Side Note:

Oh, and as many of you know: I don't consider Star Trek: Enterprise to be a part of the The Core Star Trek Time Line. There are just too many questionable issues in regards to it's canon. Regardless of whether or not the Enterprise episodes can be twisted around to fit awkwardly with the rest of the series (or if it is considered officially canon).

I look at Star Trek: Enterprise as some type of Unexplained First Contact Time Line. Whether there are scenes within Enterprise that suggest contrary to that belief or not.

For me, there hasn't been any 100% conclusive evidence suggesting that Star Trek Enterprise couldn't have been an Altered First Contact Time Line.

 

[Kagan]

Gary Mitchell Myth #1: Gary and Kirk were classmates at the Academy. The lines between them in sickbay show obviously that Kirk was one of Gary's instructors in the Academy.

Gary Mitchell Myth #2: Gary was the Enterprise's navigator. Not necessarily, three proofs in the episode: 1) Paul Carr (Kelso) was credited as "Navigator" in the original WNMHGB credits, 2) when Kirk orders leaving the galaxy, he calls for the helmsman to proceed and looks at Mitchell, and 3) when Mitchell is injured on the bridge, Kirk yells for a helmsman to replace him.

Gary Mitchell Myth #3: Gary was the Enterprise's first officer. There is no on-screen or '60s off-screen evidence to this. In fact, Kirk, Spock, Smith, and an unnamed officer on Delta Vega are the ONLY ones in the episode that wear command uniforms. Mitchell, Kelso, and Scotty wear the engineering/services color of sand/peach/beige

Gary Mitchell Myth #4: Gary was only familiar to Kirk. A briefing room line by Dehner reveals that she had learned/known that Spock and Gary had worked together "for years". Spock's final line of the episode, "I felt for him, too," indicates that to be the case as well and not just a human sentimentality. This means that Mitchell may have preceded Kirk to the Enterprise since The Menagerie indicates that Spock was a long-term officer with Pike.

 

[diankra]

Gary Mitchell Myth #4: Gary was only familiar to Kirk. A briefing room line by Dehner reveals that she had learned/known that Spock and Gary had worked together "for years". Spock's final line of the episode, "I felt for him, too," indicates that to be the case as well and not just a human sentimentality. This means that Mitchell may have preceded Kirk to the Enterprise since The Menagerie indicates that Spock was a long-term officer with Pike.

Yes, I tend to read the various comments as meaning that 'Kirk requested Mitchell for his first command', but Mitchell was instead assigned to the Enterprise, serving with Spock for some time before Kirk was also assigned to Enterprise and took over as captain.
Personally I like the idea that Mitchell was first officer, and that the Spock-Kirk friendship began in the wake of his death as Spock took over the role and was later confirmed in it, but it's not really supported by what's onscreen.

 

[sariel2005]

Gary Mitchell Myth #1: Gary and Kirk were classmates at the Academy. The lines between them in sickbay show obviously that Kirk was one of Gary's instructors in the Academy.

Actually, Kirks stating he has known Mitchell for 15 years implies that they knew each other while Kirk was a cadet at the Academy.

 

[johnjaypl]

. . . if LB Abbott and the Lydecker Brothers were on the Trek staff, the model work would still be amazing. But the sets would all have the same Jupiter 2 / Batcave consoles.

And the transporter pads would have been those translucent hexagonal panels recycled from the miniaturizer floor in Fantastic Voyage. And this familiar bit of hardware would have shown up in Engineering.

I always liked that computer. Wasn't it called something like "Miss Hemme" when it first appeared in the movie "Desk Set?"

I also love those Jupiter 2/ Bat Cave consoles. I think they showed up in the seaview too.

Those Burrough consoles were the real thing.

http://www.cs.virginia.edu/brochure/new_images/b205.gif

 

[SpyOne]

Gary Mitchell Myth #3: Gary was the Enterprise's first officer.

I think this is fueled by Gary calling Kirk "Jim".
As far as I know, in the entire run of the series the only crewmembers to call the Captain "Jim" were Mitchell, Bones, and Spock, and even Spock usually called him "Captain" if other people were present.
Such familiarity is inconsistent with the discipline shown in later episodes unless Mitchell is the First Officer, but probably was because Gene Roddenberry had his finger in this episode more than any other, and he viewed Kirk as more "first among equals" than "top of the pyramid".

 

[EEE]

Gary Mitchell Myth #1: Gary and Kirk were classmates at the Academy. The lines between them in sickbay show obviously that Kirk was one of Gary's instructors in the Academy.

Actually, Kirks stating he has known Mitchell for 15 years implies that they knew each other while Kirk was a cadet at the Academy.

Not necessarily a cadet... in the US Army Air Corps it was fairly common to make an instructor out of someone who just graduated a class. I'd imagine Gene Roddenberry had to have personally seen the phenomenon in WWII as it applied to flight instructors.

...Or Kirk could've been something along the lines of a study group or class leader for that matter.

James Teachers-pet Kirk (and you guys thought it stood for "Tiberius" didn't you? ...another myth debunked! *grin*)

 

[Mr. Mugato]

Gary Mitchell Myth #3: Gary was the Enterprise's first officer.

I think this is fueled by Gary calling Kirk "Jim".
As far as I know, in the entire run of the series the only crewmembers to call the Captain "Jim" were Mitchell, Bones, and Spock, and even Spock usually called him "Captain" if other people were present.
Such familiarity is inconsistent with the discipline shown in later episodes unless Mitchell is the First Officer, but probably was because Gene Roddenberry had his finger in this episode more than any other, and he viewed Kirk as more "first among equals" than "top of the pyramid".

I disagree, Gary calling Kirk "Jim" is perfectly consistent with what we see in the run of the show.

Not because he was (or was not) the first officer, but because they were friends who have known each other for many years.

Just like Bones, who constantly called the Captain "Jim". It's a quick way to let the audience know that they have a longstanding friendly relationship.

When Spock calls him"Jim" it does the same thing, but on an even deeper level - since Spock is the most formal guy around, when he breaks out the ol' "Jim" It lets the audience know that they're good friends and that this particular situation is extremely important.

Just like when Scotty called the Captain "Jim" in Mirror, Mirror.

 

[Aike]

And finally, the biggest myth: Star Trek survived because the hard core fans kept it alive.

 

[Luther Sloan]

You can't build a TOS Romulan Cloaking Device out of Radio Shack parts...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z9VSOq0nqU

 

[Warped9]

We have to remember that we actually saw little of Starfleet's universe. We saw the Enterprise and her crew, some starbase commanders and personnel, and we saw a few other starship captains and a handful of their crews. It seems like a lot, but that's actually a small fraction of Starfleet as a whole.

We never saw the Captains of the starships Intrepid (a Vulcan starship), Excalibur, Yorktown and Potemkin. And in each of those there were no references to the gender of those commanders.

The essential point is there's nothing in TOS that says women cannot command and there's nothing there that says there aren't any at the present time.

Side note: it has nothing to do with canon, but I did write a TOS era story that featured the Captain of the Excalibur after it had been repaired and remanned. Captain Teresa L. Marquette was the name I gave her. She sits in on an inquiry board with Kirk and Judge Advocate officer, Lt. Commander Areel Shaw, investigating charges of gross insubordination of Captain Hector S. Finnegan.

 

[Luther Sloan]

It means Kirk's life and career of starship command excludes serious relationships.

Warped 9:

See, thats just the thing. Lester says the only time she was alive was when she was at Starfleet with Kirk. Kirk then says I never stopped you from going on with your space work. Meaning, Kirk was referring to Lester's concern was more over her advancement within the space program than it was with their serious relationship. This had nothing to do with her being with Kirk while he was a Captain. She didn't really want to be with him. Kirk even said in Lester's body that she hated her own womanhood. In other words, Lester was more concerned with being a Captain than she was with being with Kirk!

So although Janice's line... "Your world of Starship Captains doesn't admit women" can be interpreted to fit your viewpoint. In all actuality the previous lines of set up suggest otherwise.

So by all accounts, TOS's "Turnabout Intruder" is stating that women can be Captains within Starfleet. There has just not been any Starfleet woman Captains yet at this time (due to the difficulties of the test or whatever). Meaning... Kirk's world of Starship Captains hasn't admitted any women into it's ranks yet.

Plus, there is no indication within the rest of the episode that Lester was motivated in the past at any point to be with Kirk on a romantic level while he was a Captain. Simply put, Janice's top primary motivation was always to be a starship Captain.

That is what this scene was about...

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/60122

And that is what the entire episode was about.

 

[Noname Given]

The Vulcan race is intelligent, scientific and logical. The Vulcans are just as shallow, conniving and petty as the rest of us. They send their children into to the desert to see if they'll survive. Their marriage and sexually practices would get them prosecuted in modern day Iran. Their scientific dogma prevent any revision in the face of evidence (time travel). Their racial arrogance is pervasive.

This is based mostly on ENT and not TOS.

No - it's based FIRMLY in TOS.

in Squire of Gothos:

After finding out that Spock is a a Vulcan:

Trilaine: "Are its inhabitants preditory?"
Spock: "Not generally. But, there have been exceptions.

The Managerie: Hell, the entire first episode shows Spock commiting mutinous offenses left and right (and even sabotaging the 1701 itself) all because of his EMOTIONAL attachment to his former Captain (Pike).

Amok Time: While Spock's actions during the episode can be attributed to Ponn Far. The outright disgust that T'Pau shows for Humans (Offworlders) in the episode cannot.

T'Pau (To Spock): Thee has prided Thyself on thy Vulcan heratige. Art thee Vulcan or art thee Human?! (And there is clearly disdain and disgust in her voice when she says the last part.)

Also, T'Pring and Stonn have been having the 'illicit' affair for a LONG time prior to Spock returning to Vulcan - and the change to the 'plan' to divorce Spock was made very quickly, and logically.

Stonn also had an emotional outburst that caused him to be admonished by TPau.

Journey to Babel - We have Sarek outright lying to everyone to cover up his heart condition. Secondly we have Spock's comment to McCoy when they are discussing the possibility of Sarek as a muder suspest.

Spock: "If there was sufficient reason, my father is quite capable of killing. Logically and effeciently."

So, again, sorry - the statement that "The Vulcans are just as shallow, conniving and petty as the rest of us." I VERY WELL supported by episodes of TOS.

 

[Gojira]

The Eugenics Wars and World War III are separate conflicts. Spock in "Space Seed" mentions the "third world war" to which McCoy replies "the Eugenics Wars." To me this directly contradicts TNG's notion that the conflicts are separate ones. TOS is saying WW3/Eugenics War happens in the 1990s (thankfully Star Trek is an alternate timeline) while TNG asserts WW3 happens in the first half of 21st century. Also in "Return To Tomorrow" Kirk says humanity avoided a nuclear holocaust while TNG references a post atomic horror.

I prefer to think of them as two seperate conflicts. However, I suppose one could view them as one long drawn-out conflict. The Eugenics Wars would then be just one theatre (or sub-conflict) of the overall war.

When Spock mentions World War III and then McCoy mentions the Eugenics War I always took it as McCoy "correcting" Spock on getting Earth History wrong. The Eugenics war was in the late 20th century but World War III was in the 21st century as mentioned by TNG.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Eugenics Wars and World War III are separate conflicts. Spock in "Space Seed" mentions the "third world war" to which McCoy replies "the Eugenics Wars." To me this directly contradicts TNG's notion that the conflicts are separate ones. TOS is saying WW3/Eugenics War happens in the 1990s (thankfully Star Trek is an alternate timeline) while TNG asserts WW3 happens in the first half of 21st century. Also in "Return To Tomorrow" Kirk says humanity avoided a nuclear holocaust while TNG references a post atomic horror.

I prefer to think of them as two seperate conflicts. However, I suppose one could view them as one long drawn-out conflict. The Eugenics Wars would then be just one theatre (or sub-conflict) of the overall war.

When Spock mentions World War III and then McCoy mentions the Eugenics War I always took it as McCoy "correcting" Spock on getting Earth History wrong. The Eugenics war was in the late 20th century but World War III was in the 21st century as mentioned by TNG.

Spock wrong?????

 

[Gojira]

I prefer to think of them as two seperate conflicts. However, I suppose one could view them as one long drawn-out conflict. The Eugenics Wars would then be just one theatre (or sub-conflict) of the overall war.

When Spock mentions World War III and then McCoy mentions the Eugenics War I always took it as McCoy "correcting" Spock on getting Earth History wrong. The Eugenics war was in the late 20th century but World War III was in the 21st century as mentioned by TNG.

Spock wrong?????

God forbid!! but in this case I think he was.

 

[Warped9]

^^ Uhh...no.

McCoy seems to be giving a little nod of affirmation to Spock's remark. Just as we know the first world war as World War I in it's time and for sometime after it was known as The Great War. And Spock appears to agree rather than appear in anyway miffed that he's been corrected.