TOS Klingons had ridges!

[C57D]

Just to let Ford's Klingons speak for themselves.
"And though the cold brittles the flesh, the chain of duty can not be broken.
For the chain is forged in the heart's own fire, which cold can not extinguish.
Yet if my line should die, it dies with it's teeth in the enemy's throat.
It dies with it's name on the enemy's tounge.
For just as mere life is not Victory
Mere death is not Defeat;
And in the next world, I shall kill the foe a thousand times,
Laughing,
Undefeated ! "

 

[1001001]

I forced myself to sit through three episodes, and then abandoned STD.
I was so excited - "new ST wooohooo" - and then so drastically disappointed - ";*%#-{} ©¢¥¬ !!!"
And the so called Klingons!
We have gone from Soviet stand ins to barbarian bikergangs and NOW we get mortuary Klingons WTF!
Biggest mistake in modern ST is that they ignored (and imho forcefully uncanonised) Ford's wonderful extrapolation from TOS Klingons.
Easy come easy go, I guess?

That's interesting.

I think the exact opposite.

TNG improved the Klingons tremendously. In TOS, they were ridiculous guys in face paint and pajamas.

DSC Klingons actually seem like a real, full-blown alien race, not just a caricature of one aspect of humanity.

 

[Commishsleer]

I really hate the augment explanation. Just might as well admit the real reason for the difference in appearance is that its just a TV show. If they were so worried about explaining every inconsistency then why introduce the Romulan thing with ridges. If they were determined to do that they should have done it with the Vulcans too as they were the same species.
A simple explanation for the difference (if they must explain it) would be that Klingons are a conglomerate of races like the Xindi. The "human" looking Klingons were the ones that dealt with the Federation while the TNG buffoon Klingons drank wine and talked of honour on their home planet. By the time of TMP the TOS Klingons left the Klingon Empire and formed their own leaving the TNG ones to do their own dirty work battling the Federation,.

 

[Dukhat]

Biggest mistake in modern ST is that they ignored (and imho forcefully uncanonised) Ford's wonderful extrapolation from TOS Klingons. Easy come easy go, I guess?

Oh yes, how dare they ignore a 35-year-old novel by some unknown author that only hardcore Trek trufans even know about, who depicted the Klingons completely differently than how they were shown in TOS, and whose characterizations weren't even used in TNG, DS9, VOY, or ENT anyway.

And BTW, novels aren't canon anyway, so it would be impossible to "uncanonize" them.

 

[C57D]

Oh yes, how dare they ignore a 35-year-old novel by some unknown author that only hardcore Trek trufans even know about, who depicted the Klingons completely differently than how they were shown in TOS, and whose characterizations weren't even used in TNG, DS9, VOY, or ENT anyway.

And BTW, novels aren't canon anyway, so it would be impossible to "uncanonize" them.

Obviously YMDV! !
Not a case of "how dare they", more a case of a well written extrapolation from TOS Klingons being ignored by TPTB, and a poor, inane substitute being put in its place.
Fords work wasnt 100% in line with TOS, but it hit all the sparse evidence that existed then. Far closer than TNG+ Klingons could ever dream of achieving. And managing to write a damn fine novel too!
Obviously the old mantra "novels are not canon" needs to be rolled out again and it is strictly true. Just funny how the book had a Paramount licensing moniker back then, but now we can forget all about it!
Not anger, just sadness that we had a sirloin steak with all the trimmings offered to us, but got fed a dry ham sandwich!

 

[BillJ]

DSC Klingons actually seem like a real, full-blown alien race, not just a caricature of one aspect of humanity.

From what I've seen, they were still a caricature... just with more expensive make-up.

 

[Dukhat]

Not a case of "how dare they", more a case of a well written extrapolation from TOS Klingons being ignored by TPTB, and a poor, inane substitute being put in its place.

You're missing the point. Ford's book wasn't "ignored." Its existence most likely wasn't even known by the DSC producers. You can't ignore something you aren't aware of.

But let's play devil's advocate and say that they did know of the novel, and had read it. They're under no obligation to follow the work of some freelance unknown author's 35 year old non-canon book, which was already ignored by TNG onwards anyway. They had a story they wanted to tell, and Ford's version of the universe was not compatible with it.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I really hate the augment explanation. Just might as well admit the real reason for the difference in appearance is that its just a TV show. If they were so worried about explaining every inconsistency then why introduce the Romulan thing with ridges. If they were determined to do that they should have done it with the Vulcans too as they were the same species.
A simple explanation for the difference (if they must explain it) would be that Klingons are a conglomerate of races like the Xindi. The "human" looking Klingons were the ones that dealt with the Federation while the TNG buffoon Klingons drank wine and talked of honour on their home planet. By the time of TMP the TOS Klingons left the Klingon Empire and formed their own leaving the TNG ones to do their own dirty work battling the Federation,.

When I was growing up, my Dad explained to me Trekfans from the 80's already made logical theories on their own. The human looking "Genghis Khan" Klingons were from the Northern Hemisphere; while the ridges- very stupid Klingons- like Worf, Martok, and the ever ridiculous Gowron were from the Southern Hemishere. Chang, Gorkon, Kamarag, Kerla, and the Duras type Klingons were from the equator.

All were good and excepted in the world of Star Trek... until DS9's "Blood Oath" came around. F^cked up everything.

 

[Dukhat]

All were good and excepted in the world of Star Trek... until DS9's "Blood Oath" came around. F^cked up everything.

I wouldn't go that far. I'm pretty sure that the prevailing attitude of Trek fandom at the time was that the bumpy-forehead Klingons was how they always looked, and what we saw in TOS should just be quietly tolerated and ignored. Which was also the attitude when DS9 made that tribble episode. So really, what f^cked things up was ENT.

 

[C57D]

You're missing the point. Ford's book wasn't "ignored." Its existence most likely wasn't even known by the DSC producers. You can't ignore something you aren't aware of.

But let's play devil's advocate and say that they did know of the novel, and had read it. They're under no obligation to follow the work of some freelance unknown author's 35 year old book, which was already ignored by TNG onwards anyway. They had a story they wanted to tell, and Ford's version of the universe was not compatible with it.

Firstly, John M Ford was not an unknown author, he has many many novels and RPG books published throughout his career. Some of them critically acclaimed by their respective audiences.
Secondly, horse door stable bolted. I am in my mind discussing the opportunity that TNG had back in the late eigthties to use a fully formed, intelligent and sympathetic Klingon race, but rejected it for a bunch of temper tantrum throwing , inane, idiots who spout honour but have none.
Waaaayy to late now!

 

[Dukhat]

Firstly, John N Fird was nit an unknown author, he has many many novels and RPG books published throughout his career. Some of them critically acclaimed by their respective audiences.

As far as Trek post-1987 is concerned, he was considered an unknown. He only wrote two Trek novels, and they took place in the TOS era. While it's true that Ron Moore derived inspiration for the Klingon concept of honor in TNG from Ford's book, that was the only thing remotely the same.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I wouldn't go that far. I'm pretty sure that the prevailing attitude of Trek fandom at the time was that the bumpy-forehead Klingons was how they always looked, and what we saw in TOS should just be quietly tolerated and ignored. Which was also the attitude when DS9 made that tribble episode. So really, what f^cked things up was ENT.

TOS was too great to be ignored, no matter what the fans turned pro continue to shit on. From DS9 to Discovery these bullshit improvements hasn't altered the greatness of Kor, Khang, Koloth, and the other brilliant work from... real Klingons. You know, the ones without the fucking werewolf makeup.

 

[Shawnster]

They were just frowny people.

[headcanon] Little known fact that in Klingon physiology it takes fewer muscles to frown than to smile. [/headcanon]

 

[Dukhat]

TOS was too great to be ignored, no matter what the fans turned pro continue to shit on. From DS9 to Discovery these bullshit improvements hasn't altered the greatness of Kor, Khang, Koloth, and the other brilliant work from... real Klingons. You know, the ones without the fucking werewolf makeup.

I wasn't saying that TOS was ignored. I was saying that the look of the Klingons were ignored. And while I'm not disputing your feelings about the greatness of TOS, the "real" Klingons you speak of were just one-dimensional cardboard Snively Whiplash villains, IMHO. Kor, Koloth and Kang pretty much acted the same and probably could have been played by the same actor. Even the Kahless from "Savage Curtain" was no different than your typical run-of-the-mill TOS Klingon bad guy. I don't know; maybe you're seeing something I'm not.

 

[johnnybear]

Vulcans and Romulans looked bad on TNG and the other shows! A flat black wig and a big V across their foreheads which wasn't around in the time of TOS and Mark Lenard, Lawrence Montaigne and Barry Atwater didn't seem to have it at all! Yet both races had it in ENT which is set a century earlier!
JB

 

[Mytran]

Vulcans had a forehead-V on Enterprise????

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...7472906073/vulcans-broken-bow.jpg?format=750w

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20120330004319&path-prefix=en

I must have been watching a different version

 

[Roundabout]

I like the augment virus explanation. I think it was a very creative idea.

After TMP came out, I accepted the "bumpy headed Klingons were how they always looked" explanation. But when ENT actually offered an in-universe explanation, I applauded the writers for coming up with something even though I wasn't expecting one. It was a clever in-universe explanation.

From TOS all the way through to ENT, there is now a logical and explainable continuity about the way the Klingons look.

(In my headcanon), the ridges, ironically, provide the reason why the TNG Klingons had gotten dumber and more primitive than their TOS smoothie counterparts. The comeback of the forehead ridges for TNG Klingons meant that their brains got smaller. The thick ridges reduced the space for their brains. Oddly enough, the re-evolving of ridges brought about a de-evolving of their intelligence.

 

[Discofan]

I thought it came from all the headbutts they kept giving each other.

 

[Redfern]

I thought it came from all the headbutts they kept giving each other.

James Doohan during his convention touring years suggested it was an allergic reaction to tribbles.

 

[Commishsleer]

I wasn't saying that TOS was ignored. I was saying that the look of the Klingons were ignored. And while I'm not disputing your feelings about the greatness of TOS, the "real" Klingons you speak of were just one-dimensional cardboard Snively Whiplash villains, IMHO. Kor, Koloth and Kang pretty much acted the same and probably could have been played by the same actor. Even the Kahless from "Savage Curtain" was no different than your typical run-of-the-mill TOS Klingon bad guy. I don't know; maybe you're seeing something I'm not.

If you're going to say Kang acted the same as Koloth then you might as well say that you could substitute the TNG/DS9 Klingons with each other. All except the outliers such as Worf, B'Elanna, K'Ehylr, the Duras sisters.
All the other Klingons were characteurs of boozing, fighting jocks. You couldn't understand how they developed spaceflight let alone an empire that challenged the Federation.
Despite this the Klingons in TNG were fun at times. Maybe it would have just been better if they weren't called Klingons and they had invented a new species for them.