TOS Klingons had ridges!

[C57D]

I think the Klingons started flying Birds of Prey because the writers of Search For Spock originally wanted the Romulans as that film's baddie but someone stated that the Klingons were much better known and inserted them instead! And we know from the original series that both Empires collaborated at one time or another!
JB

Totally agree.
And so we are left with Klingon ships suddenly getting bird-like monikers - "warbird" and "bird of prey" and cloaking devices.
No wonder we are confused.
I much prefer the FASA STTRPG solution of a limited technological exchange. A few old D7's for a few cloaks.
Not a myriad of Klingon ships with Rom like designs, cloaks and bird-dy names.

 

[johnnybear]

The cloaking technology as shared by both races has benefitted stories featuring both Klingons and Romulans in TNG and DS9 though!
JB

 

[Phaser Two]

Totally agree.
And so we are left with Klingon ships suddenly getting bird-like monikers - "warbird" and "bird of prey" and cloaking devices.
No wonder we are confused.
I much prefer the FASA STTRPG solution of a limited technological exchange. A few old D7's for a few cloaks.
Not a myriad of Klingon ships with Rom like designs, cloaks and bird-dy names.

Agreed. Those folks at FASA got a lot right.

 

[C57D]

Agreed. Those folks at FASA got a lot right.

Following on from FASA, I assume that the Rom BoP with its limited fusion powered ("pure impulse" ) was their new supership (PT and Cloak) and was a disaster when it was so soundly beaten. And so the Roms needed MAM tech and were desperate enough to trade some of their supertech cloaks to get a good handful of old D7's from the Klings. Also a good dose from both sides of "the enemy if my enemy etc....."

 

[johnnybear]

According to various sources the Klingon/Romulan alliance didn't last that long and while The Enterprise was intercepting V'Ger, the two former friends were having battles with each other around their own borders!
JB

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think the Klingons started flying Birds of Prey because the writers of Search For Spock originally wanted the Romulans as that film's baddie but someone stated that the Klingons were much better known and inserted them instead! And we know from the original series that both Empires collaborated at one time or another!
JB

That's pretty well known, IIRC. Make one wonder what path the Klingons would have taken if Romulans were used in TSFS. Or the Romulans for that matter. Would Klingons have been as popular in films and TV without TSFS?
The ship in TSFS always looked more Klingon than Romulan to me: Long neck with the command module on the end. Wide winglike shapes on the engineering hull. And the designation "Bird of Prey" never appeared in TOS. Bird of prey was used to describe it's paint job, not as a designation. So technically the first ship to be called a "Bird of Prey" on screen is a Klingon one.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I must admit that I never saw TOS Klingons as honourable, at least not by human standards. Grain poisoning and prisoner tourturing isnt too honourable in my book.
But, for me, Ford explained why Klingons behave as they do, and the impact of the whole Komerex-Khesterex dichotomy at the core of their psychology and society.

It's the missed opportunity the late Leonard Nimoy expressed about Nicholas Meyer's The Undiscovered Country; nothing would've been more compelling and thrilling for Kirk and McCoy be sentence on a Klingon Planet. There, Kirk and McCoy would have to eat with Klingons, rest beside them, and learn their culture. After their experience living with them, he would have a different insight and view of them.

 

[Dukhat]

I was watching Errand of Mercy this evening, and I couldn't help but notice that Kor and most of the other Klingons sported make-up that accentuated their forehead wrinkles.

This also seemed to be the case with Kang on Day of the Dove:

Now, both John Colicos and Michael Ansara had pronounced wrinkles, but were these accentuated? Were Klingons always supposed to have ridges?

Discuss!

I think you're just seeing what you want to see.

That's pretty well known, IIRC. Make one wonder what path the Klingons would have taken if Romulans were used in TSFS. Or the Romulans for that matter. Would Klingons have been as popular in films and TV without TSFS?
The ship in TSFS always looked more Klingon than Romulan to me: Long neck with the command module on the end. Wide winglike shapes on the engineering hull.

Agreed. I've often felt that if, once the decision was made to make the adversaries Klingons, they just painted over the green color and red accents for the "feathers" and made the whole ship bluish like the K'T'ingas in TMP, that there'd be no question that it was a Klingon ship. Vonda McIntyre even called it a "Klingon fighter" in her novelization of STIII and never once used the term Bird of Prey. I would make an example of what I'm talking about but I absolutely suck at photoshop.

 

[STEPhon IT]

There could be an interesting story in how the two races basically switched characteristics between the 23rd and 24th centuries.

But how would this swap explain all that Kay-Less nonsense? How come TOS Klingons didn't spat out that verbage when they were conquering and mass murdering people?

Enterprise gave some laugh out loud explanation it was a virus and it was fear which made them bastards. But failed to add that the virus made them intelligent, and resourceful. Something which was lacking in TNG and it's horrible spin-offs, where it appeared a wrong gesture could lead to someone's life ending.

I don't mind Worf being gungho about the mythology because he was never raised by Klingons, but to see every Klingon on DS9 spouting that crap sounds like a lack of individuality and vision.

I would be more inclined to accept it was the Romulans who genetically altered the Klingons into TNG "buffoonery mentality" during their so-called union, and covertly re-wrote their history. TOS Klingons were badasses and they could've been considered a real threat to their way of existence. The Mind Sifter weapon they invented were reasons enough to start peeling the layers of that threat.

Wouldn't it have been more easy to swallow in ST:III if Kruge had stolen a Romulan ship and sold it's secrets to the Empire than retconning it as a Klingon ship?

A member here was saying he saw the bird of prey as a Klingon ship which boggles my mind. Since everything Romulan displays the images of birds. There's nothing bird-like about Klingons, not symbols, or design examinations--nadda. Drinking the kool-aid fountain is too common for fans.

 

[C57D]

It's the missed opportunity the late Leonard Nimoy expressed about Nicholas Meyer's The Undiscovered Country; nothing would've been more compelling and thrilling for Kirk and McCoy be sentence on a Klingon Planet. There, Kirk and McCoy would have to eat with Klingons, rest beside them, and learn their culture. After their experience living with them, he would have a different insight and view of them.

Now I would pay good money to see that!!!

 

[STEPhon IT]

The cloaking technology as shared by both races has benefitted stories featuring both Klingons and Romulans in TNG and DS9 though!
JB

Benefited the Federation since TNG kept giving clues of weaknesses for the device. Anti-proton stuff became the moniker whenever a cloak was the subject. I never knew why the cloak had such a fascination for fans turned pro? Balance of Terror made the weapon seemed risky, but after ST:III the producers can have their cake and eat it too by having the villains see while cloaked. Forgetting the amount of energy consuming this thing.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

With Romulans using Klingon designs in "The Enterprise Incident," it's hardly a stretch that Klingons might be using Romulan designs in STIII.

 

[Poltargyst]

Yeah, they basically switched the characterizations of the Klingons and the Romulans around for TNG. (Heck, even earlier -- STIII.) Suddenly, the Klingons were the honorable ones and the Romulans were the duplicitous, scheming, mustache-twirling bad guys. On TOS, it was the reverse.

Just what I thought all along. And I found myself not minding the changes they made to the Klingons. They were still interesting for me, but I HATED what they did to the Romulans.

 

[Poltargyst]

Totally but although they growl about honour all the time they fail to practise any. The TNG+ Klingons are really more about "face" than honour. Bikergang-viking-samuri's who growl posture and bang heads is all they amount to.
How on earth they rule and maintain a multispecies, tens of parsecs wide Empire is a total mystery to me.

I always wondered how they could maintain a military given that they were so willing to die all the time.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, they basically switched the characterizations of the Klingons and the Romulans around for TNG. (Heck, even earlier -- STIII.) Suddenly, the Klingons were the honorable ones and the Romulans were the duplicitous, scheming, mustache-twirling bad guys. On TOS, it was the reverse.

I think it's because they originally wrote the bad guys as Romulans in STIII and they didn't make many adjustments to the script when they decided to make them Klingons instead. That's also how come the Klingons were suddenly flying Birds of Prey. And honorable Klingons also fit better with having a Klingon be in Starfleet, of course.

There could be an interesting story in how the two races basically switched characteristics between the 23rd and 24th centuries.

Did they? After all, the first time we meet the Romulans they have sneaked acrossed the border in an invisible ship to test out a deadly new weapon on the unsuspecting Earth Outposts. This in clear violation of treaty and an attempt to provoke a war. That's pretty scheming an duplicitous.

 

[Poltargyst]

Did they?

Yes, they did.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yes, they did.

Not seeing it. As I pointed out, the Romulans don't exactly ooze "honor" with their actions in TOS. Yeah, the BOT Commander wasn't totally "evil", but do we judge the Romulans by him or by Decius and the Praetor?

 

[C57D]

I always wondered how they could maintain a military given that they were so willing to die all the time.

I can only agree. Bikergang succesion of the strongest, posturing and "face" may work for a few hundred people, but can you run an Empire that way?
I know that I keep on about it, but Ford's vision had strategists, doctors, scientists, administrators, intelligence officers and technicians - all respected for their contribution to the Khomerex.
No one note "We are all WARRIORS (growl, butt heads)" of TNG+.

 

[Phaser Two]

Ugh, this completely logical and spot-on assessment of the awful TNG Klingons is making my head hurt, because it's so true and the show blew it so badly. And don't get me started on DISC . . . .

 

[C57D]

I forced myself to sit through three episodes, and then abandoned STD.
I was so excited - "new ST wooohooo" - and then so drastically disappointed - ";*%#-{} ©¢¥¬ !!!"
And the so called Klingons!
We have gone from Soviet stand ins to barbarian bikergangs and NOW we get mortuary Klingons WTF!
Biggest mistake in modern ST is that they ignored (and imho forcefully uncanonised) Ford's wonderful extrapolation from TOS Klingons.
Easy come easy go, I guess?