TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

[Captain Robert April]

One thing to add a bit more complexity to the issue: The doors to the hangar deck shown in "Journey to Babel" aren't the same as shown in "The Immunity Syndrome."

The way I figure it, the doors in "Babel" open onto the flight deck itself, whereas in "Immunity" we're seeing the hangar deck directly below.

 

[Mytran]

They're different - really?

Or were you thinking of the setup in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"? There's all sort of wierd stuff happening there - what's up with the funny angle the wall is on?

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There's also a lot more "tech stuff" in the foyer area, compared to to the clean look of "Journey to Babel".

So this could very well be another area of the ship, as you suggested. However, the doors in JTB and TIS are (I believe) the same area.

 

[Captain Robert April]

JTB is in a alcove, TIS is on a corridor.

 

[Mytran]

Well we see the alcove in both episodes, we just don't see what it's connected to in JTB. Sarek and co. walk through the triangular door frame and don't go any further (cos they stop to talk to Kirk), but we don't see anything to contradict TIS. It's also the way that Kirk et al entered the scene. And if that route doesn't lead to a corridor, where does it go?

 

[blssdwlf]

However, the shot from trekmovie.com doesn't show the full detail. Here is the maximum ceiling shot that we get to see from "Journey To Babel"

Thanks Mytran

Good eyes! I didn't even notice those three "somethings" there. I went in and added them to the elevator hatch "inner lip" ? and rendered out a new version. (I also moved the elevator walls further out so they don't show up as much in the render.) You can see the revised image here:

http://www.foundation3d.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36910&d=1267307938

For what it's worth, I actually think the 29' shuttlecraft makes a lot more sense, given that it's a longe range (see Metamorphosis) spacecraft. However, fitting it into what we see on screen is a bloomin' nightmare!

Funny you should mention that. When I was positioning everything, it was for a 29' shuttle. You can see in my early renders how massive it looks inside the bay. I rescaled it down to 24' (instead of 20') to accommodate the dialogue. But the elevator and turntable I left untouched and will still take a 29' shuttle

Yeah, the window ports are one of the aforementioned headbangers. For one thing, if we were to go by the episode; the spacebound windows on the set are square (at best), whereas the ones one the exterior model are rectangular.

Yes there are ways you could rationalise this discrepancy, but it remains an idiosyncrasy nonetheless. And then there's the question of the pylons support structure, which if the shuttlebay is as large as appears on screen would appear to be non-existent - that future tech is something else!

Yep. I think I'll just add two squarish windows and hope no one notices

As far as the pylon support structure, I'm mocking up something that I think could work. I'm using the interior shots from ST:TMP as inspiration and one thing I've noticed is that the TMP Enterprise is it seems that the pylons and neck support structure doesn't extend very far into the hull itself (at least not obviously anyway).

 

[blssdwlf]

I just re-watched it (go CBS/IMDB!) And it does look like there is no wall on the right if you look at it carefully in JTB. But, like Mytran noted, the camera doesn't pull further back and the closeup of McCoy just shows a wall behind him. Now you could say that the vertical strip behind him indicates that it is moving away from him and not part of the corridor seen in TIS, but for my purposes I'm going with the structure for the corridor+foyer is the same in both JTB and TIS. Cosmetically, they can be different and I'm okay with that

Just to throw another twist into it...

The foyer, angle of the pressure door wall and what is behind it is radically different in "The Doomsday Machine". As soon as I can get a screencap I'll post it up.

Based on the current info you guys have and what I've seen so far:

JTB and TIS = same foyer to go to hangar deck below flight deck.

LTBYLBF = turbolift next to foyer, most likely on the flight deck level. I'm reasoning this because when the door opens to the hangar deck it is green lit which corresponds to Kirk pointing to a green lit flight deck in "The Conscience of the King".

DM = same corridor stucture as TIS, but the foyer is completely different. My particular concept of the shuttlebay does have room for a deck between the hangar deck and flight deck, so I'm going to shove this mystery deck right there

Well we see the alcove in both episodes, we just don't see what it's connected to in JTB. Sarek and co. walk through the triangular door frame and don't go any further (cos they stop to talk to Kirk), but we don't see anything to contradict TIS. It's also the way that Kirk et al entered the scene. And if that route doesn't lead to a corridor, where does it go?

 

[Mytran]

I just re-watched it (go CBS/IMDB!) And it does look like there is no wall on the right if you look at it carefully in JTB. But, like Mytran noted, the camera doesn't pull further back and the closeup of McCoy just shows a wall behind him. Now you could say that the vertical strip behind him indicates that it is moving away from him and not part of the corridor seen in TIS, but for my purposes I'm going with the structure for the corridor+foyer is the same in both JTB and TIS. Cosmetically, they can be different and I'm okay with that

I also noticed that for the first time when I was preparing these images. That silver strip is a typical "flat joiner" that was used throughout the corridor set on TOS, so it seems likely that the wall behind McCoy is a continuous stretch (instead of the corner it would normally be):

It's very strange but lends credence to my idea that the "foyer" wasn't actually a redressed part of the corridor set at all, but a series of wild walls positioned just outside wherever it was they they filmed the live-action shuttlebay interior.

And what the hell is that greeble next to McCoy? It's too small for a red alert lamp and the wrong colour for a communicator panel. Suggestions anyone?

Of course, we never actually see that side of the corridor in IS, so they can still be the same location, regardless of bizzare ship design!

Onto Doomsday Machine:

That's a completely different part of the ship, sure enough! Actually, its recycled parts of the circular briefing room from "The Cage" and WNMHGB. Personally, I always put that scene down to being on the Hangar Deck level, but not actually near the pressure doors themselves (notice how the blue doors in the above pic are missing the green/red lights previously seen above pressure doors).

Finally - blssdwlf's updated shuttlebay design (with the 3 "somethings" I mentioned) is looking great! BTW, thanks for info about your shuttle sizes. It's nice to know that all sizes of shuttlecraft are welcome on your ship!

 

[TIN_MAN]

Just my two quatloos worth, wasn't the "shuttle alcove" always the same section of corridor -the one opposite the engine room doors on the set? If you look at TOS set plans, (which I don't have access to at the moment, but I'm sure someone can oblige)there was just enough room on the sound stage behind there to park the shuttle mockup, with the blue backdrop hiding the soundstage walls. Anywho, regardless of whatever minor changes were made from ep to ep, for lighting and camera angles etc., I think the area has remained fairly consistant.

 

[scotpens]

. . . If you look at TOS set plans, (which I don't have access to at the moment, but I'm sure someone can oblige)there was just enough room on the sound stage behind there to park the shuttle mockup, with the blue backdrop hiding the soundstage walls.

Here are the plans for the standing sets from TMOST. I don't see enough room next to Engineering or anywhere else for the shuttlecraft. Maybe they used the adjacent soundstage?

 

[TIN_MAN]

Well, it might have been the hallway between the briefing room and transporter? In any case, the sets were changed between the 1st season and 2nd/3rd season, so that would factor in. But the "A" frame doors at the end of the radial hallway sections was the same in all cases.
P.S. Thanks for posting the image, scotpens.

 

[blssdwlf]

@Mytran - good observation on the lack of pressure lights on the DM screenshot. I figure it must go somewhere to the hangar deck controls or the flight deck but not in a direct way (although he is on the "hangar deck" but I'm thinking now that the "hangar deck" are 3 decks total unless you count the observation deck which could be 4.

@April - that side corridor comes it very handy! Mytran is correct, we never see that part of the corridor/wall area in TIS... so that allows me to add in a side corridor that I can use to go around the lower hangar deck levels

The whole warp pylon structure problem got me thinking and here is a rough idea of how it might work. I'm leveraging off of the two dorsal beams at the flight deck ceiling and making use of the non-windowed areas of the observation deck for part of the ribs

http://www.foundation3d.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36940&d=1267412467

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Mytran]

As far as the pylon support structure, I'm mocking up something that I think could work. I'm using the interior shots from ST:TMP as inspiration and one thing I've noticed is that the TMP Enterprise is it seems that the pylons and neck support structure doesn't extend very far into the hull itself (at least not obviously anyway).

That's a very good point and from an in-universe perspective it makes perfect sense. It would call for some incredibly strong materials to work but hey; this is the future, right?
I'd be remiss at this point however if I didn't mention Cary L Brown's thread, since it also deals with support structure (from a modern "common sense" viewpoint). It's a fascinating read!

Well, it might have been the hallway between the briefing room and transporter? In any case, the sets were changed between the 1st season and 2nd/3rd season, so that would factor in. But the "A" frame doors at the end of the radial hallway sections was the same in all cases.

Most of the changes were at the engineering end of the corridor - the section with the briefing room and transporter where pretty much unchanged (and unmoved) throughout the series run.
However, the stretch of corridor you mentioned is indeed the bit used by spock and McCoy in TIS:

However, the T-room side of the studio is not far from my own theory as to where the shuttlebay mockup was: (I'm using the 20' shuttle prop here)

One of the books (possibly "Making of Star Trek) mentions that the Engineering Room was used as the shuttlebay, but I just can't see how the shuttle prop could fit in there and leave all the space that we see in JTB, TIS etc.

 

[blssdwlf]

That's a very good point and from an in-universe perspective it makes perfect sense. It would call for some incredibly strong materials to work but hey; this is the future, right?
I'd be remiss at this point however if I didn't mention Cary L Brown's thread, since it also deals with support structure (from a modern "common sense" viewpoint). It's a fascinating read!

Wow. I looked through Cary Brown's thread and that is a fascinating (if not cautionary) read.

I like how he really pushes the structure all the way into the secondary hull, but unfortunately it would be a huge pain to recreate any hangar deck scene, IMHO. I wished he stuck with it longer just to see how he would work around that problem

I'm definitely going with the "advanced materials" philosophy and try to base it as "in-universe" as possible although I like his idea of using box beams for parts of the warp pylons There are going to be some external differences (or detailing) on my particular version of the ship won't be 100% accurate to any particular filming model though...

As to where they filmed the hangar deck scenes, I figured that they built the foyer in a large stage area that isn't in the current stage with the life-size shuttle model. In TIS when they go to the foyer, the camera cuts and they are now in the foyer. In JTB, the camera is already next to or in the foyer.

 

[Mytran]

I would tend to agree. I like how the director of TIS tries to merge the two locations together. It almost works, except that the dialogue is out of sync with the action (after they cross the triangular doorway). I'll put pics up later (if anyone's interested) to show what I mean, I'm stuck at work right now!

The hangar deck situation has cropped up here before and (short of making a 2000' Enterprise) there are two basic routes:

1. Use 21st Century "common sense" engineering techniques (like Cary) for the nacelle pylons but have a shuttlebay that is smaller than the one in show.

2. Have futuristic engineering setup (like blssdwlf ) and a larger, more show-accurate* shuttlebay.


*Of course this does raise the question - what do they need all that empty space for anyway? Surely the pilots aren't that bad! Maybe it doubles as other functions...basketball tournaments? Court Martial hangings? Perhaps they flood it occassionally and that's where the mysterious swimming pool is!

 

[scotpens]

. . . As to where they filmed the hangar deck scenes, I figured that they built the foyer in a large stage area that isn't in the current stage with the life-size shuttle model. In TIS when they go to the foyer, the camera cuts and they are now in the foyer. In JTB, the camera is already next to or in the foyer.

Given the apparent distance between the foyer set and the shuttle mockup, it does seem more likely that those scenes were shot on the adjacent Stage 10, which was normally used for planet exteriors and one-time interior sets built for a specific episode.

. . . Of course this does raise the question - what do they need all that empty space for anyway? Surely the pilots aren't that bad! Maybe it doubles as other functions...basketball tournaments? Court Martial hangings? Perhaps they flood it occassionally and that's where the mysterious swimming pool is!

Or maybe they run freezer pipes across the deck and turn it into an ice skating rink?

 

[blssdwlf]

*Of course this does raise the question - what do they need all that empty space for anyway? Surely the pilots aren't that bad! Maybe it doubles as other functions...basketball tournaments? Court Martial hangings? Perhaps they flood it occassionally and that's where the mysterious swimming pool is!

Lotsa reasons...

So they can fly cargo pods through it like this
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp/themotionpicture0219.jpg

So they can hold executions like in "Turnabout Intruder"

Or reverse the gravity field and turn the ceiling into a half-pipe

And most obviously... bowling alley!

But yeah, it would make sense for it to do other functions given the size of the bay...

 

[Mytran]

It started as a joke but it actually makes some sense! I mean, how much useage does the shuttlebay actually get during an average mission?

And yes, it's certainly a prime location for the oft-debated bowling alley!

 

[Captain Robert April]

Since everything in the Engineering set was either movable or not visible from a certain distance outside the doorway, I don't see any problem with using that part of the soundstage as the hangar deck. The only qualifier is just much of a pain in the tuchus is was to move that shuttlecraft between soundstages and how much maneuvering had to be done around the standing sets, versus setting up sections of corridor next door as well as painting the floor, setting up a wall, etc, for one scene.

I suspect keeping all the action on Stage 8 won that argument.

 

[Captain Robert April]

It started as a joke but it actually makes some sense! I mean, how much useage does the shuttlebay actually get during an average mission?

And yes, it's certainly a prime location for the oft-debated bowling alley!

I've heard about crews on big cargo planes, like a C-5, setting up impromptu football games on those occasions when the hold is empty.

 

[scotpens]

. . . The only qualifier is just much of a pain in the tuchus is was to move that shuttlecraft between soundstages and how much maneuvering had to be done around the standing sets, versus setting up sections of corridor next door as well as painting the floor, setting up a wall, etc, for one scene.

I suspect keeping all the action on Stage 8 won that argument.

The shuttle mockup was a big heavy sumbitch. That's not to say they couldn't have schlepped it between adjacent soundstages, but I'm sure it would have been moved only as absolutely necessary.

And the standing Enterprise sets were on Desilu's Stage 9, not 8.