TOS Blu-Ray Question
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I assume they cleaned up the original effects shots employing the same techniques as the live action. It wasn't a full recreation of those shots like they did for TNG. They were forced to completely redo TNG because the way the show was originally produced none of those shots were ever in high definition. Since TOS was all done with film the image quality is better than TNG's original video; however, depending on the number of mattes, etc., some of the shots will look grainy because there might be a few generations of film represented in the final shot (even if they've been color corrected and dirt & grime removed from the negatives).
Yup, yup and yup. I've gone on at length about this over the years. You can find my posts all over the place. But even the VHS tapes had alterations to make them Hi-Fi.
With the remaster, the 60’s effects shots do not look the greatest. Back in the 60’s, when the seperate elements were optically printed together, if there was tears, dust and dirt on the film, it was photographed onto the combined master. Those seperate elements no longer exist (the main reason for the CGI), so when the HD remaster was done in 2006-2008, any tears, dust and dirt on the actual physical film we’re repaired/cleaned, but anything photographed in the 60’s was not.
Also with the live-action shots, there were scenes that were taken from syndication masters (possible 16mm film) as the film was in poor condition. If you watch “Court Martial”, when the court reconvenes on the Enterprise, after the flip, the scene for quite a while comes from a syndication copy, as, when you look at the same scene on the 1999 and 2004 DVD’s, and even the VHS, the print was creased at some point, so it breaks up the scene. But on the HD-DVD/DVD & Blu-Ray, that scene is missing the crease, but it is slightly softer and bluer than the other scenes around there. So it’s like TNG where a few scenes had to be upconverted from the SD tapes. Also the new CGI was cropped to 4:3 on the HD-DVD/DVD/Blu-Ray, and is not in its 16:9 like it was on the Xbox marketplace or as aired on SPACE here in Canada.
As for audio, the mono mixes are the 60’s versions (albeit with better dynamic range than when aired in the 60’s, since apparently some stations aired the audio from over a telephone line), while the HD-DVD/DVD do feature 5.1/7.1 mixes that feature new effects for the CGI (Like the shuttle zooming under the Enterprise when the “Court Martial’s teaser opens) sourced from the original audio elements that are in CBS’s vault (also the original music tracks & effects tapes were digitized and released on CD back around 1986 and were still accessible in 2006—the CD’s contain the original mono mixes https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Trek_Sound_Effects?mobile-app=false). These 5.1/7.1 mixes are different from the 5.1 mixes made in 1999 that appeared on the 99 and 2004 sets. (The 2004 set also has an exclusive 2.0 surround mix that is only on that set.).
Thanks to all for continuing info.
I'm fine with seeing those in an HD version the reveals all that production detail, even if some would consider it flaw.
Some were apparently found and put on on some disks called "The Roddenberry Vault," but, somehow, they were not found until after the Blu-Rays came out. I have seen some but not all of that set.
Anybody care to explain what the differences are between stereo and 2.0 surround, and why that has any advantages over just watching the 5.1 mix on a stereo system if that's all you have?
Full disclosure I have access to 7.1 system, but I'd still like to know what makes the 2.0 version worth taking the time to make back when the DVD's were released. Does it just do stereo but more like a surround sound experience?
I'm fine with seeing those in an HD version the reveals all that production detail, even if some would consider it flaw.
Some were apparently found and put on on some disks called "The Roddenberry Vault," but, somehow, they were not found until after the Blu-Rays came out. I have seen some but not all of that set.
Anybody care to explain what the differences are between stereo and 2.0 surround, and why that has any advantages over just watching the 5.1 mix on a stereo system if that's all you have?
Full disclosure I have access to 7.1 system, but I'd still like to know what makes the 2.0 version worth taking the time to make back when the DVD's were released. Does it just do stereo but more like a surround sound experience?
The other issue is the generational loss. In a number of the later episodes, the Enterprise looses virtually all detail and appears white, versus the gray that it appeared in the early episodes. Also, I seem to recall reading a few years ago, but the ship shots were shot and composited on 16mm film in the 60's as a way to save costs and then the final composited shots were delivered on 35mm film. This is kind of like what SeaQuest DSV did in the 90's, where the live-action was shot and edited on 35mm, but the special effects were done on D1 Component Video tape and then converted to 35mm for the international film masters. In SD its ok, but blown up to 1080p, you can see a bunch of problems.
I just played Disc 1 from that set. The majority of deleted scenes that are from the vault are Live-Action scenes with actors. There are a few Special effects scenes, like the Apollo scenes from Who Mourn's For Adonais? (but that's because you had in one shot Kirk, McCoy and Spock on the set, and then they had brought onto the set a green screen, to shoot the Apollo actor. There was one, one, shot of the Enterprise being shot for The Corbomite Maneuver with a stand-in cube. But the other issue is that what was found was mostly workprints. These were rough cuts of episodes that were used to figure out what worked and what didn't, or where they could trim out stuff to make the episode fit in the air time. Essentially, like we saw on the TNG Blu-Ray's with The Measure of A Man and the VHS workprint, film that was used for the TOS workprints was the cheapest out there and nothing was color corrected, sicne the prints were going to be manhandled by a ton of people.
Also, with the special effects, Desilu/Paramount would've only received the final composited shot. The separate elements were left at a lab, sort of like what happened to the color film of The Cage, and why it wasn't recovered until 1987. Someone was probably suppose to pick up the elements, but it slipped through the cracks and then were never picked up and may've been sent to a garbage dump at some point, or are lying under tons of debris that was bulldozed over if the building was torn down.
Were you ever at a theater in the 1980's or 90's? Ever see how the theater would just label a film presented in stereo as just "Dolby Stereo", but on VHS or DVD that film was in "Dolby Surround". Really "Dolby Surround" or 2.0 surround is mixed for more of a theatrical presentation, as it does have a mono center and mono rear channel matrixed into the Left & Right stereo audio (and a Dolby Pro Logic decoder can decode correctly; every surround system out now has Dolby Pro Logic built in nowadays). Now then "Dolby Stereo", like on Seasons 1, 2 &3 of Star Trek The Next Generation was mixed with just 2 speakers in mind. Really, with TV, it was designed for when a lot of TV stations would simulcast on a FM radio band (before stereo TV's were out) a stereo audio channel, that anyone with a stereo radio could pick up and listen to while they watched the show on TV. You can run "Dolby Stereo" soundtracks through a surround decoder, but the rear channels would just be picking stuff up a random, as nothing is assigned to the rear channel.
As for TOS's 2.0 Surround mix, I have to wonder if it was maybe made in the 90's for Stereo TV broadcasts to try to bring something "new" to the table for stations who wanted to promote that they were in "Stereo" (if you recall, many shows in the 90's would have over the first 30 seconds or so of the teaser "In Stereo Where Available" that the station was broadcasting the show in stereo, but some cable companies might still be sending the channel out in mono, or some affiliates might've still been broadcasting in mono but a network show was aired in stereo). Or the 2.0 mixes might've been made for the 40-volume DVD series that was released between 1999 and 2001; however those featured a Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround mix only---no mono or stereo mix. But for one reason or another, like the early-to-mid-90's Remaster that was used for the Japanese Laserdiscs and a few European VHS releases, the mix was shelved, and never used, except for on the 2004 DVD box sets. The 2008/2009 HD-DVD/DVD's didn't have the original video on the discs, just the remastered video, so only the Remastered Remixed 5.1 audio tracks were used (2.0 Surround mixes of these tracks exist as they were used on the Standard Definition TV masters that were aired in 2008/09 but these mixes have not been released on DVD or Blu-Ray). And the Blu-Ray's featured the Remastered Remix audio in 7.1 and the original 60's mono audio in 2.0.
There's at least one episode, "Balance of Terror", that they goofed on. Even if you switch to "original" on the menu instead of the original recorded theme music it's the newly recorded one. I assume the audio track that's designated mono is actually a downmix from the 5.1 remaster that wasn't fixed.
Glad I stayed with the DVDs myself!
JB
JB
Yeah in general the Klingon D7 CGI models they did for TOS remastered are really bad and just plain suck.What really sticks out on my 65" TV is those low-polygon Romulan ships from "The Enterprise Incident".
I've found that the TOS-R effects have aged a lot more quickly than the original. What was once fairly impressive (for the most part) now stands out as out of place. At leas the original effects are from the same era as the live action, so they look as if they were native to the episodes. The 2006 effects look exactly like what they are: work done well after the fact. I do like a lot of it, but it always pulls me out to see a live action shot followed by what would pass as a well done video game shot. Some shots never convinced me. The giant Fasarius dwarfing the Enterprise always looked like a cartoon. The cloaking of the Romulan in Balance of Terror felt off (although some of the BoP shots were excatly right). I would almost prefer having the large Polar Lights Enterprise model filmed against a green screen and composited against star fields and planets. I'm sure more than one Trek BBS member knows Mark Meyers and his spot on Enterprise builds. Like studio models.
And I'm sure it's just me, but the planets in TOS-R are TOO realistic. For all the declarations of "staying true to what they could have done with more money," a lot of shots just come off as too advanced. In the end, it was a middle of the road effort: not quite faithful to the original but not nearly as impressive as they could have been. I would have rather they either faithfully recreate the original shots or go all out and really do it it. To the point of fixing the sags in the bridge screens above the workstations in Tomorrow is Yesterday, and so on... BTW, that episode truly benefits the most from the CGI. Absolutely fixes the climax. Props for that.
And I'm sure it's just me, but the planets in TOS-R are TOO realistic. For all the declarations of "staying true to what they could have done with more money," a lot of shots just come off as too advanced. In the end, it was a middle of the road effort: not quite faithful to the original but not nearly as impressive as they could have been. I would have rather they either faithfully recreate the original shots or go all out and really do it it. To the point of fixing the sags in the bridge screens above the workstations in Tomorrow is Yesterday, and so on... BTW, that episode truly benefits the most from the CGI. Absolutely fixes the climax. Props for that.
You can't beat the original Klingon ships that first appeared in Elaan of Troyius, The Enterprise Incident and Day of The Dove to be honest!
JB
^^^
Yep - some shots (timing wise) were off. It's like the guys doing the effects were just looking at the shot length and doing a literal read of 'ship decloaks" - and they just com up with something. the most glaring example is the line from the Outpost 4 Commander we we (the audience) get our first look at the Romulan BoP.
In the original version as the Commander says the line:
HANSEN [on viewscreen]: "Switching. Can you see it, Enterprise? Can you see it? Becoming visible in the center of my screen."
^^^
As he says "Becoming visible..." the ship SLOWLY fades in as it materializes and fires...then slowly fades out again.
In the remastered version:
As he says "Becoming visible..." the ship isn't there then quickly (in under half) appears and fires...then quickly blips out again.
^^^
In the end the new effect DOESN'T match the "Becoming visible..." part of the line, and IMO - if it's a new fan who's never seen the original version, I could see where they'd think the writing there in that scene was off.
The originals were so slimline and graceful where as the remastered jobs kept moving at weird angles and appearing behind and around and about...and up and down the length of the nacelles!!!
JB
JB
See - I actually dislike what they did for that episode in making everything off planet so green and trying to make the Nebula more prominent (the local space near the planet wouldn't look that way, and it make the whole thing more cartoonish to me.
Episodes such as The Tholian Web, The Lights of Zetar, The Immunity Syndrome and The Doomsday Machine are by far, better viewed with their original effects. The new effects on Zetar superimpose over the original effects on the shipboard scenes - awful! The Zetars look like a computer game, and the depth and awe isn't really felt in all the above episodes as much as with the original effects.
The backdrops in Wink of An Eye, By Any Other Name and Spock's Brain are a nice touch in TOS - R, and do add depth without distracting too much. And some episodes really benefit from the remastering such as Tomorrow Is Yesterday.
So I guess a) Its personal preference, but also b) some episodes are better in their remastered form than others (which in itself is a personal preference).
The backdrops in Wink of An Eye, By Any Other Name and Spock's Brain are a nice touch in TOS - R, and do add depth without distracting too much. And some episodes really benefit from the remastering such as Tomorrow Is Yesterday.
So I guess a) Its personal preference, but also b) some episodes are better in their remastered form than others (which in itself is a personal preference).
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