Haven't you read? The insurance companies we have right now is forced monopolized created by the government. This is not something new. Geez! http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/health-care/
Today's Economy & Trek's Future Economy
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Haven't you read? The insurance companies we have right now is forced monopolized created by the government. This is not something new. Geez! http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/health-care/
I was referring to "it's cheaper because it's run by private sector".
Also, again Ron Paul. Lulz.
Also, again Ron Paul. Lulz.
I guess an important part of the health care debate that seems to be being left out here is "what percentage of your salary is deducted to pay for your healthcare?"
I work for a State government, so I may be in a better position than some, but for me, the answer is 1.0%. It would be higher, but I participate in a "get healthy" program, aimed at reducing the impact of a chronic illness (In my case, inherited type-2 diabeetus) that reduces my contribution by 0.5%
I'm pretty much covered for everything else, though I do have a supplemental, private cancer insurance policy that costs me a whopping $17.00 a month. (All of which I get back at the end of 25 years, if I don't get cancer.)
So... yeah. I'm really staggering under the weight of the US system, here.
I work for a State government, so I may be in a better position than some, but for me, the answer is 1.0%. It would be higher, but I participate in a "get healthy" program, aimed at reducing the impact of a chronic illness (In my case, inherited type-2 diabeetus) that reduces my contribution by 0.5%
I'm pretty much covered for everything else, though I do have a supplemental, private cancer insurance policy that costs me a whopping $17.00 a month. (All of which I get back at the end of 25 years, if I don't get cancer.)
So... yeah. I'm really staggering under the weight of the US system, here.
I think people tend to confuse "health coverage" or "health insurance" with "health care" when debating the relative quality of systems.
The health care services provided in the United States are the best in the world. Bar none. There is simply no other country, not even major modernized western nations, that can compete with the United States on the quality of its actual health care services.
However, health care services in the United States are also far more difficult for many people to afford. Access to affordable health care services is certainly much more of a problem in the United States than it should be, or than it is in some other countries.
The health care services provided in the United States are the best in the world. Bar none. There is simply no other country, not even major modernized western nations, that can compete with the United States on the quality of its actual health care services.
However, health care services in the United States are also far more difficult for many people to afford. Access to affordable health care services is certainly much more of a problem in the United States than it should be, or than it is in some other countries.
Why wouldn't it be? Competition will naturally force the price down...
I had a choice of health care provider in California; I didn't perceive this magical competition price reduction. Again we're talking about health care here, not buying a car.
It hasn't.
PEOPLE OF EARTH -
(I think that covers most of us here - even those of the iguanese persuasion)
Please stick to the Trek-related topic.
That is all.
(I think that covers most of us here - even those of the iguanese persuasion)
Please stick to the Trek-related topic.
That is all.
Please.Why wouldn't it be? Competition will naturally force the price down...
While I find naivete endearing, it doesn't make for a very good economical debate. How much time do you think it will pass before "competitors" would form a cartel and squeeze every citizen to the last penny? It's what it always happened in the history of economics.
EtA: And to keep it Trek-related, well, uhm... Spock would find it highly illogical to persevere in a track that has been shown not to work time and again.
(More seriously: superdogs demand, iguanas abide.)
Paradon: The government doesn't tell me what to do, it makes it possible for me to get full health care even though I don't have much money. If I wanted to choose private healthcare, I would be free to do so. Also, if I am going to pay for something anyway, I might as well help everyone while I do it. That's the whole point. The strong stepping in for the weak.
Doom Shepherd: Yes, that's true, but there have been funding holes for a while now. The goverment responsible are in for a major defeat, and the social democrats should win the next election. Thing is, people around here are staunch defenders of the solidarity principle. Healthcare that is available to everyone is important, and a few funding holes aren't gonna change that.
Point is, how can anyone say that it's bad to have the right to be helped by the government? Everyone has access to medical care. How can that be bad? I don't get it, but then again, most people around here are baffled by the Americans' resistance against universal healthcare.
And I think the Federation would always advocate the humane thing.
Doom Shepherd: Yes, that's true, but there have been funding holes for a while now. The goverment responsible are in for a major defeat, and the social democrats should win the next election. Thing is, people around here are staunch defenders of the solidarity principle. Healthcare that is available to everyone is important, and a few funding holes aren't gonna change that.
Point is, how can anyone say that it's bad to have the right to be helped by the government? Everyone has access to medical care. How can that be bad? I don't get it, but then again, most people around here are baffled by the Americans' resistance against universal healthcare.
And I think the Federation would always advocate the humane thing.
We're used to seeing the Federation as a symbol of the US.
I think democratically, and militarily and socially, it is.
However economically, it resembles (at least in a way) the Ferengi - I've even heard others describe our economy as a 'survival of the fittest' type economy.
The ones that have said this tended to have 'the government should not interfere with business at all' ideals.
If you ever read what happens on Wall Street, watch business negotiations-or watch a natural habitat get torn down to build something, you can see the comparison.
I don't think it is sinister like the Ferengi, but both are based on the same idea-competitive capitalism. The Ferengi are just way more extreme with it.
I think in the US, we see healthcare as a privilege, not an automatic right, I'll bet that is exactly how they (the Ferengi) would see it. (I kind of agree in a small way)
OTOH, a Federation citizen would probably say, 'everyone has the right to proper healthcare'.
That may explain for some people, why something like UHC is harder to accept for some Americans.
I think Trek may have it right, even if it is a fantasy-- use technology to find a way to get out of economic troubles.
I think democratically, and militarily and socially, it is.
However economically, it resembles (at least in a way) the Ferengi - I've even heard others describe our economy as a 'survival of the fittest' type economy.
The ones that have said this tended to have 'the government should not interfere with business at all' ideals.
If you ever read what happens on Wall Street, watch business negotiations-or watch a natural habitat get torn down to build something, you can see the comparison.
I don't think it is sinister like the Ferengi, but both are based on the same idea-competitive capitalism. The Ferengi are just way more extreme with it.
I think in the US, we see healthcare as a privilege, not an automatic right, I'll bet that is exactly how they (the Ferengi) would see it. (I kind of agree in a small way)
OTOH, a Federation citizen would probably say, 'everyone has the right to proper healthcare'.
That may explain for some people, why something like UHC is harder to accept for some Americans.
I think Trek may have it right, even if it is a fantasy-- use technology to find a way to get out of economic troubles.
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That's the one thing that's always annoyed me about ST: apparently, in the future, everyone's an American with an American mindset. Sorry, guys, not gonna happen. I realise this is because it's an American show (duh), just like in Doctor Who, everyone's British in the future, and most of it happens in London.
It still annoys me. The American system is thought of as pretty undemocratic by most Europeans (not going there, just stating a general sentiment), and I doubt that this kind of heartless capitalism will be accepted by everyone should Earth get united someday. Assuming that would be unrealistic and a tad arrogant.
I know, it's a tv show, but I don't want to think that this whole "either you have money or you're screwed" system will apply to all of humanity one day.
It still annoys me. The American system is thought of as pretty undemocratic by most Europeans (not going there, just stating a general sentiment), and I doubt that this kind of heartless capitalism will be accepted by everyone should Earth get united someday. Assuming that would be unrealistic and a tad arrogant.
I know, it's a tv show, but I don't want to think that this whole "either you have money or you're screwed" system will apply to all of humanity one day.
I think Americans, having been one of the few countries to successfully stage a violent revolution and then not replace the original government with something worse, are in a unique spot.
We're a lot more individualistic than other peoples seem to be (frontier mentality, when you're a day's ride away from any help, you have to be), and I think it confuses both them and us.
Many Americans are kinda like control freaks, and we don't like the idea of giving other people power over us. We figure the more we do for ourselves, the better off we are.
(To a large extent this is true, but to another extent it can be just silly. It's certainly better to be able to do your own home or appliance repair than to have to wait around all day at the seeming whim of repairman, but you can't possibly do EVERYTHING youself.)
And I think that's what it comes down to. Whenever you ask someone else to do something for you instead of doing it yourself, you give them power over you. Some of us are psychologically averse to doing this, to greater or lesser extents. Over the years, we've given rather a lot of power to our government. It probably has more power now than the previous one did when we shot at it and threw it out. So we're leery of that.
Then there's the difference between positive and negative rights, and how that can be applied to issues like healthcare. I may have a right to health care, but is it a positive right or a negative one? I think Americans see rights a bit more along the lines of negative rights (as they're rather enshrined in our Bill of Rights.)
Then of course there's our leeriness towards collectivism in general, as we've witnessed numerous failures of enforced "fraternity" around the world. (And the fact that a lot of collectivists tend to be posers. Indeed, my experience with Communists consists entirely of 18-year-old upper-middle-class white boys who buy tons of Che Guevara memorabilia with daddy's money, and don't get the irony.)
We tend to agree with Frederic Bastiat, who said "...it is quite impossible for me to separate the word "fraternity" from the word "voluntary." It is quite impossible for me to conceive of fraternity as legally enforced, without liberty being legally destroyed, and justice being legally trampled underfoot."
We're a lot more individualistic than other peoples seem to be (frontier mentality, when you're a day's ride away from any help, you have to be), and I think it confuses both them and us.
Many Americans are kinda like control freaks, and we don't like the idea of giving other people power over us. We figure the more we do for ourselves, the better off we are.
(To a large extent this is true, but to another extent it can be just silly. It's certainly better to be able to do your own home or appliance repair than to have to wait around all day at the seeming whim of repairman, but you can't possibly do EVERYTHING youself.)
And I think that's what it comes down to. Whenever you ask someone else to do something for you instead of doing it yourself, you give them power over you. Some of us are psychologically averse to doing this, to greater or lesser extents. Over the years, we've given rather a lot of power to our government. It probably has more power now than the previous one did when we shot at it and threw it out. So we're leery of that.
Then there's the difference between positive and negative rights, and how that can be applied to issues like healthcare. I may have a right to health care, but is it a positive right or a negative one? I think Americans see rights a bit more along the lines of negative rights (as they're rather enshrined in our Bill of Rights.)
Then of course there's our leeriness towards collectivism in general, as we've witnessed numerous failures of enforced "fraternity" around the world. (And the fact that a lot of collectivists tend to be posers. Indeed, my experience with Communists consists entirely of 18-year-old upper-middle-class white boys who buy tons of Che Guevara memorabilia with daddy's money, and don't get the irony.)
We tend to agree with Frederic Bastiat, who said "...it is quite impossible for me to separate the word "fraternity" from the word "voluntary." It is quite impossible for me to conceive of fraternity as legally enforced, without liberty being legally destroyed, and justice being legally trampled underfoot."
I suppose this is why we can't get our mentality across as something desirable, and why we don't get why Americans oppose Obama on this entire healthcare issue so much. We really and honestly don't get it.
Be that as it may, I would have liked the humans in ST to be more culturally diverse, because we are not all Americans, nor do we wish to be. That's what makes humanity awesome: the fact that we are culturally diverse, that even what we call "Western societies" can produce such different mentalities. That's great. These debates we have are great.
Then again, I would have loved some cultural diversity on other Trek planets, as well. This whole warriorrrrrrrrrrrrr thing the Klingons got going doesn't just get old after a while, but it doesn't make any sense, either. That applies to everyone. I think the only ones who got some actual depth were the Cardassians.
Be that as it may, I would have liked the humans in ST to be more culturally diverse, because we are not all Americans, nor do we wish to be. That's what makes humanity awesome: the fact that we are culturally diverse, that even what we call "Western societies" can produce such different mentalities. That's great. These debates we have are great.
Then again, I would have loved some cultural diversity on other Trek planets, as well. This whole warriorrrrrrrrrrrrr thing the Klingons got going doesn't just get old after a while, but it doesn't make any sense, either. That applies to everyone. I think the only ones who got some actual depth were the Cardassians.
American's don't oppose a single-payer health care system. Some people like to claim that we do...but there aren't any polls to back it up.
Of course, when those same people lie and talk about death panels...the idiots will beleive them and get angry.
These are the same idiots who use medicare/medicaid...which is government provided healthcare.
Of course, when those same people lie and talk about death panels...the idiots will beleive them and get angry.
These are the same idiots who use medicare/medicaid...which is government provided healthcare.
Not quite, some Americans oppose it, while some Americans support it.
Do you have a poll showing 100% support?
Medicare/medicaid (and the VA) are examples of single payer plans. However they are voluntary, you are not required by law to enter those programs. Nor are you financially penalized if you don't.
Also, medicare won’t have sufficient funds to pay full benefits starting in 2024. Which isn't exactly a glowing endorsement of the single payer concept.
ETA:
As for anyone claiming that the single-payer model will lead to financial ruin, here's a reality check:
End Edit.
About six years ago, my mother was having some weird pains in her side, but she couldn't afford to do anything about it -- no money for a doctor's check-up, you see, and it wasn't utterly debilitating yet, so she didn't miss work. (She was working as a gas station attendant.)
When the pain finally grew to be unbearable -- directly after working a 9-hour shift on her feet with no lunch break, I might add -- she broke down and went to the E.R. They sent her to a neighboring city for emergency surgery, because otherwise she would basically have died. Turns out that a giant pocket of infection had developed on her right kidney and she basically would have only had another few days to live otherwise.
She spent two weeks in the hospital and another six or eight weeks (I don't remember the exact number) debilitated at home, recovering, with no income. She ended up thousands of dollars in debt over the whole thing, and all because the U.S. doesn't offer single-payer health care like a civilized nation.
The American health care system almost killed my mother. Anyone who tries to say that the United States's health care system is anything other than utter crap to the poor and the working class is a goddamn liar.
As for anyone claiming that the single-payer model will lead to financial ruin, here's a reality check:
End Edit.
About six years ago, my mother was having some weird pains in her side, but she couldn't afford to do anything about it -- no money for a doctor's check-up, you see, and it wasn't utterly debilitating yet, so she didn't miss work. (She was working as a gas station attendant.)
When the pain finally grew to be unbearable -- directly after working a 9-hour shift on her feet with no lunch break, I might add -- she broke down and went to the E.R. They sent her to a neighboring city for emergency surgery, because otherwise she would basically have died. Turns out that a giant pocket of infection had developed on her right kidney and she basically would have only had another few days to live otherwise.
She spent two weeks in the hospital and another six or eight weeks (I don't remember the exact number) debilitated at home, recovering, with no income. She ended up thousands of dollars in debt over the whole thing, and all because the U.S. doesn't offer single-payer health care like a civilized nation.
The American health care system almost killed my mother. Anyone who tries to say that the United States's health care system is anything other than utter crap to the poor and the working class is a goddamn liar.
It would have cost a lot less if it weren't for forced government monopolized insurance companies system that we have right now which force the price to skyrocketed...exploiting people who are in need of medical care. People like your mother could have been treated with simple preventive treatment before the problems become serious and life threatening. Some simple non-invasive procedures which could fix the problem with not much cost are prohibited by the insurance companies because it cuts into their profits. These safe and effective non-invasive procedures have been around for 100's of years.
While it's certainly true that insurance companies are pulling bullshit like that, I want to make something else eminently clear, here:
There was no money for a doctor's visit. None. Period. Zip. Nada. Nothing. She and I were making just enough to barely survive and nothing more. Even a "cheap" doctor's visit would have been too much.
And that's how it is for many, many Americans.
There seems to be this notion that if we just reduce costs enough, the capitalist medical system model will be okay. And that's just not true. There are too many people who simply can't afford it, even if it's "cheap."
Since when did humanism become socialism???? Hmmm? Somebody tell me that? I must've missed it while I was working my two part-time jobs just to keep a roof over my head.
Canada and the UK, you guys are right. Universal Health Care is the way to go. I am tired of hearing about how my fellow Americans are hurting and dying all in the name of politics.
I don't see what is wrong with taking a bit out of our paycheck every week, just like they do for Social Security, to insure that all of us have healthcare.
This freedom of choice for healthcare carriers is baloney. The rich want to keep the money the government is giving them that is supposed to trickle down to us in the form of jobs and let the rest of us just die.
One day the nice people of the world will rise up and let their voices be known. Only then will Star Trek's Federation be achieved.
P.S. I'm working on landing my third part-time job.
Canada and the UK, you guys are right. Universal Health Care is the way to go. I am tired of hearing about how my fellow Americans are hurting and dying all in the name of politics.
I don't see what is wrong with taking a bit out of our paycheck every week, just like they do for Social Security, to insure that all of us have healthcare.
This freedom of choice for healthcare carriers is baloney. The rich want to keep the money the government is giving them that is supposed to trickle down to us in the form of jobs and let the rest of us just die.
One day the nice people of the world will rise up and let their voices be known. Only then will Star Trek's Federation be achieved.
P.S. I'm working on landing my third part-time job.
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