Today's Economy & Trek's Future Economy

[CommanderRaytas]

Not to open a can of worms here, but....People, calling universal healthcare "lack of choice" is ridiculous and indicates an utter lack of understanding of the system. What it really means is solidarity at its finest: the strong help the weak and everybody has a right to be treated when sick.

You can still choose private health insurance if you want to. In countries with universal healthcare, no-one has to sell their souls for cancer treatment if they're not insured (or will be refused treatment if they can't pay, which is horrible and inhumane). Everyone has a right to be treated, and it's financed through taxes (like I said: the strong help the weak). It's the most democratic system imaginable.

Of course the Federation has universal healthcare. Without any shadow of a doubt. They're humane, aren't they? Your life won't depend on how much money you can throw at hospitals.

 

[Sean Aaron]

In response to a previous poster: the State should step in and offer an alternative for everyone, spreading the cost through mandatory contributions. The insurance companies will necessarily scale back as I expect most people given a choice would opt for the public model.

 

[Paradon]

The U.S. isn't exactly run by the free market, either. Look at the all the mess that we were in and look at the mess we are in now because of the government involvement, forcing issues on the people, and it seems like the government is getting bigger and bigger. Like I said: a simple visit to your local doctors' office would probably cost around 30, 40, 50 dollars without having to go through all these ridiculous insurance companies (who couldn't afford that), and the service is exceptional...on a walk-in visit you'd probably wait 10 minutes since it's not free so the people would only visit doctors when they feel they really have to go, and the it would be equip with the most current equipments. I read that in socialize health care system, people have been known to wait up to 2 days in the emergency room because their are so many people crammed in to only a few hospitals; whereas in the free economic system, the hospitals and clinics are in abundance because it is determine by the demands and supplies and so they don't have to run on limited funds.

Not long so long ago back in the when the U.S. had hospitals that are run on donations from the private sectors and the doctors work on voluntary bases to help out those that less fortunate. They would encourage corporations to donate money for charities by giving them tax breaks or tax cuts. The company would take turn doing this. And Doctors can decide at their own business expense to treat someone who are less fortunate free of charge since they are not obligated to the any insurance companies. In the old days it was a common practice among doctors. Doctors have an ethical and moral obligation in cases like this and can decide what to do on their own and also not to charge too much. Furthermore, the cost of medical bills can be deducted from taxes.

If you let the free market do its job and let society deal the with the problems on their own, things have a way of working out on their own. Think it this way. The government is like someone who is telling you how you should proceed with your relationship...of course that person is only concern with what he thinks is right, not really considering what you want, how you feel and the consequences that follow. You see what I'm saying? All these governments rules and regulations are really base on what they think is right...it is base on ignorance and arrogance, thinking they can control every situation and the people. A psychologist and psychiatrist would never force you to see them, and they listen you and help you heal.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Do you think they know how to run your burger joint better you, or clinics and hospitals.

No government, even in "socialistic" European countries, tells you how to run your business. It impose regulations to protect workers' and customers' rights, which is something you said you agree with. So you should have no problem with it.

You should look at the government like you would a stranger, with suspisions when it comes to your personal affair and well being (economically and safety).

There's a name for that: paranoia.

As it always was, a lot of politicians always turn out to be completely untrustworthy.

No shit? And businessmen always turn out to be out for a profit above everything else. Who knew!?! So except if you live in the woods and never interact with any human being, there is always the (robust) possibility you are dealing with a selfish arsehole. But that's no reason to shut down society and wrap your head in tinfoil.

A health care run by free market is always better because cost and quality is determined by demand.

This is ideological dogma, without any slice of evidence. Not just that: by your definition, a true free market never existed, because there was always a government somewhere. So telling it will be "always better" is just blowing hot air.

And here a link to Ron Paul's article where he predicted the housing crisis would occur because of the government roles in this: http://www.ronpaul.com/2008-09-26/ron-paul-on-the-housing-bubble-july-2002/

Ron Paul. Lulz.

The doctors have to make a living and the drugs they use ain't free and it's hard work being a doctor. Not everyone can do it. This kind of work require special skills, schools, equipment and workers. They have to pay their staff, pay off their payment for the latest equipment they've just purchase, their house mortgage, their expensive tuition fees, they need to eat, pay for basic necessity for themselves and their family.

Then how comes doctors earn pretty well in countries with UHC, and are very happy with it? The idea that doctors suffer somehow in UHC is ridiculous, and at odds with what we see in countries which already have it. Medical practitioners are usually the first supporters of UHC, not the victims of it.

It would be affordable for everyone if you let demand and competition dictate the cost.

If you let the free market do its job and let society deal the with the problems on their own, things have a way of working out on their own.

More ideological posturing devoid of any evidence.

I read that in socialize health care system, people have been known to wait up to 2 days in the emergency room because their are so many people crammed in to only a few hospitals;

I dunno where you read it (well, probably right-wing blogs and partisan newschannels), but that's utter bullshit. Maybe in Third World countries, but surely not in Canada, or Australia, or in Europe. And I say this as someone who had lived in a country with UHC for all his life, and have used medical service extensively for myself or family members.

 

[Sean Aaron]

@Paradon: Please cite where it could take two days in an emergency waiting room. Sounds more like a free clinic in the States to me.

I can sometimes make an appointment with my GP same day; nothing out of pocket. My prescriptions cost nothing out of pocket as well. By all means if you want to pay $50 just to walk in the door be my guest. I expect you'll like paying the same or more to get a simple prescription as well?

 

[CommanderRaytas]

In response to a previous poster: the State should step in and offer an alternative for everyone, spreading the cost through mandatory contributions. The insurance companies will necessarily scale back as I expect most people given a choice would opt for the public model.

Qft!

What I think, only less, uh, ranty (neologism for the masses) than my post.

 

[Paradon]

@Paradon: Please cite where it could take two days in an emergency waiting room. Sounds more like a free clinic in the States to me.

I can sometimes make an appointment with my GP same day; nothing out of pocket. My prescriptions cost nothing out of pocket as well. By all means if you want to pay $50 just to walk in the door be my guest. I expect you'll like paying the same or more to get a simple prescription as well?

Hmmm... I pay $50 dollars every time I see a doctor V.S. paying hundreds of dollars everytime, deducted out of paycheck. I'm sure paying for something you don't really need every month would add up at the end of the year. I might as well pay $50 every month out of my own pocket for a check up, which I don't really need. It's that's simple. I think I'd rather pay $50 dollars to see a doctor...when I get sick.

People don't understand that their is no such thing as something for nothing. The notion doesn't make any sense. Everything you want cost money...that's economic. It's simple really. You have something I want and I have something you want, so let's trade. It's like trying take something and not pay for it. Money has to come from somewhere and money come from people working. It doesn't magically appear out of thin air when you wished for it. That's the whole idea when you talk about socialism.

 

[Sean Aaron]

Hmmm... I pay $50 dollars every time I see a doctor V.S. paying hundreds of dollars everytime, deducted out of paycheck. I'm sure paying for something you don't really need every month would add up at the end of the year. I might as well pay $50 every month out of my own pocket for a check up, which I don't really need. It's that's simple. I think I'd rather pay $50 dollars to see a doctor...when I get sick.

It doesn't cost me hundreds of dollars per month to support the NHS because I share the service with millions of other people. I should also note that part of the point of a monthly contribution is that I don't need to have $50 on-hand to see the doctor. Oh and how far do you think that $50 will get you in cancer treatment?

 

[Doom Shepherd]

If Canadian health care is so awesome, can someone explain why Newfoundland's Premier came to the US for routine heart surgery? Why a Liberal MP came for a breast cancer surgery? (Hint: It's because while Canada's "system" may be "better," the US's "health care" is superior.)

But to get us back on topic, I don't think we have to go THAT far to get to a good portion of the Trek economy, if we really want to.

Take those resin fabrication machines, that people use to make models and small items. You program in a "pattern," and the machine makes it for you. What is that, if not a primitive replicator?

Now, take solar power. The sun generates buttloads of it, a pretty inexhaustible supply, for the next few billion years, anyway. More than we can possibly use, for the next several hundred.

Then, take the asteroids. Rock and metal, about a trillion dollars' worth of it in the average 1Km-diameter nickel-iron space rock... and we estimate there's around 1.1-1.9 million asteroids in the solar system BIGGER than 1 Km.

So you've got an inexhaustible power source (sun), a ridiculous amount of raw materials (asteroids), and a way to convert raw materials into product (fabricators.)

What more do you need, to create the Trek economy? (Well, you need solar collectors in space, a way to generate enough Delta-V to go and capture asteroids, and deep-space mining technology.)

Get cracking!

 

[Sean Aaron]

If Canadian health care is so awesome, can someone explain why Newfoundland's Premier came to the US for routine heart surgery? Why a Liberal MP came for a breast cancer surgery? (Hint: It's because while Canada's "system" may be "better," the US's "health care" is superior.)

That's crap. He could have gotten the surgery in Canada, but he wanted the less invasive method of surgery which they weren't going to do for him since that's more offered to younger people who are more likely concerned about the cosmetic appearance of the scar. Oh, and you fail to mention that his Canadian health insurance covered him regardless. Show me the American insurance company that pays for health care in another country.

Nice try though!

 

[Paradon]

Hmmm... I pay $50 dollars every time I see a doctor V.S. paying hundreds of dollars everytime, deducted out of paycheck. I'm sure paying for something you don't really need every month would add up at the end of the year. I might as well pay $50 every month out of my own pocket for a check up, which I don't really need. It's that's simple. I think I'd rather pay $50 dollars to see a doctor...when I get sick.

It doesn't cost me hundreds of dollars per month to support the NHS because I share the service with millions of other people. I should also note that part of the point of a monthly contribution is that I don't need to have $50 on-hand to see the doctor. Oh and how far do you think that $50 will get you in cancer treatment?

People can still afford it because it wouldn't cost nearly as much. This is why people fly to Thailand for heart surgeries and sex change; they don't have to run through the insurance companies like we do, so they can perform complex surgeries for extremely affordable prices. Plus the cost can be deducted from tax. It's like buying a car. You can do it in payments...however you choose. My friend use to work at Petco, back when the economy was still good, and he bought a Chevy truck with a V8 engine and live quite comfortably. Plus you pay out of your own pockets for cheap insurance for catastrophic injuries run by the private sector, not government forced monopolized we have right now, which are only worry about making money the best way they can.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I think I'd rather pay $50 dollars to see a doctor...when I get sick.

It's all well and good until you get cancer and you have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for surgical procedures and chemoterapy. So you have to take a mortgage on your house to pay for it, and when you can't pay any more (because, you know, you have fucking cancer and you can't work), they take away your house, leaving you and your family homeless. Good luck to ever finding a job again.

I'm willing to contribute to the UHC so that I can use it when I need it. Hopefully, never. But, as they say, better safe than sorry.

People don't understand that their is no such thing as something for nothing. The notion doesn't make any sense.

We are perfectly aware that UHC is not free. Where did you get this notion that we don't know it? We pay taxes for it. It's not like it's a secret or anything.

Money has to come from somewhere and money come from people working. It doesn't magically appear out of thin air when you wished for it. That's the whole idea when you talk about socialism.

I suggest you refrain about explaining "socialism" to people when it's obvious you don't know anything about it except what right-wing pundits told you.

If Canadian health care is so awesome, can someone explain why Newfoundland's Premier came to the US for routine heart surgery? Why a Liberal MP came for a breast cancer surgery? (Hint: It's because while Canada's "system" may be "better," the US's "health care" is superior.)

US health care may be "superior" for the uber-rich, which, surprise!, include many politicians. And it's utter crap for everybody else. It's a system that favours the rich by screwing everybody else. And, bets are open, most people are not part of the uber-rich segment of the population.

Thailand might be "superior" for paedophiles thanks to their lax approach to prostitution of minors, but it doesn't mean we should all adopt their policy about sex workers.

 

[Paradon]

I think I'd rather pay $50 dollars to see a doctor...when I get sick.

It's all well and good until you get cancer and you have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for surgical procedures and chemoterapy. So you have to take a mortgage on your house to pay for it, and when you can't pay any more (because, you know, you have fucking cancer and you can't work), they take away your house, leaving you and your family homeless. Good luck to ever finding a job again.

I'm willing to contribute to the UHC so that I can use it when I need it. Hopefully, never. But, as they say, better safe than sorry.


Thailand might be "superior" for paedophiles thanks to their lax approach to prostitution of minors, but it doesn't mean we should all adopt their policy about sex workers.

Yeah, that's why you have cheap insurance for catastrophic injuries run by private sectors which will pay off all the cost of treatment. It's cheaper because it's run by private sector, not force monopolized heath care insurance we have right now. If you take into account how many people pay for the insurance and how much cheaper it would be (running around $9,000 to $20,000...the figures may be off) if there was no middleman to force the price up, they can easily pay it off.

And, I think, the reason child prostitution is so popular in Thailand because westerners who pay good money. The view of the government doesn't necessarily reflects its peoples'.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

If Canadian health care is so awesome, can someone explain why Newfoundland's Premier came to the US for routine heart surgery? Why a Liberal MP came for a breast cancer surgery? (Hint: It's because while Canada's "system" may be "better," the US's "health care" is superior.)

That's crap. He could have gotten the surgery in Canada, but he wanted the less invasive method of surgery which they weren't going to do for him since that's more offered to younger people who are more likely concerned about the cosmetic appearance of the scar.

So, vanity? Why does the US use a less invasive form of surgery than Canada does?

 

[CommanderRaytas]

People who have more money support those who have less by paying a little each month, and in exchange, everyone gets to be treated, and no-one dies from cancer, AIDS etc because they couldn't afford the treatment. It's called solidarity. The opposite is called capitalism, and imo, it's a heartless system if there ever was one. Don't have money? Well, that's too bad, go die of cancer somewhere else, we won't pay a few bucks a month to save you!

I don't know about Canadian healthcare, but here in Germany, it's pretty awesome. It's democratic. People are taken care of, because that's how it works: everybody gives a little so that everyone can have a decent living. Being healthy is part of that, and everyone has a right. Not everyone can earn the money needed, so those who do help them out. What's the big deal? It's a win-win situation, and it only costs you a few bucks/quid/Euros/whatever a month. In exchange, everything you need is basically free of charge.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

US health care may be "superior" for the uber-rich, which, surprise!, include many politicians. And it's utter crap for everybody else.

I don't know who told you this, but they lied to you.

 

[Sean Aaron]

So, vanity? Why does the US use a less invasive form of surgery than Canada does?

It costs more because it's more difficult for the surgeon. I expect they more money from the insurance company. It also appears to be a more common form of surgery in the States; probably because more Americans require heart surgery than Canadians.

US health care may be "superior" for the uber-rich, which, surprise!, include many politicians. And it's utter crap for everybody else.

I don't know who told you this, but they lied to you.

Well, having lived with American "health care" for most of my life, I think it's true - I know I feel better off and not just because I'm not out of pocket for prescriptions. The service is just generally better.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Yeah, that's why you have cheap insurance for catastrophic injuries run by private sectors which will pay off all the cost of treatment.

You just said that insurance was the middleman we need to get rid of, (and you even repeat it in the following paragraph), and yet you praise them here for being "cheap" and (supposedly) effective. You are not even consistent in your argument.

It's cheaper because it's run by private sector

You keep saying this, but haven't provided the smallest evidence of that. Like a "true believer", you just accept it as dogma, but I have yet to see anything that would convince me it is true.

And, I think, the reason child prostitution is so popular in Thailand because westerners who pay good money. The view of the government doesn't necessarily reflects its peoples'.

I think you missed the point.

US health care may be "superior" for the uber-rich, which, surprise!, include many politicians. And it's utter crap for everybody else.

I don't know who told you this, but they lied to you.

"Utter crap" might have been an exaggeration for emphasis' sake, but it has been shown to perform consistently worse that UHC, both in international inquiries about health care services and in popular surveys about people's satisfaction with it.

 

[Paradon]

People who have more money support those who have less by paying a little each month, and in exchange, everyone gets to be treated, and no-one dies from cancer, AIDS etc because they couldn't afford the treatment. It's called solidarity. The opposite is called capitalism, and imo, it's a heartless system if there ever was one. Don't have money? Well, that's too bad, go die of cancer somewhere else, we won't pay a few bucks a month to save you!

I don't know about Canadian healthcare, but here in Germany, it's pretty awesome. It's democratic. People are taken care of, because that's how it works: everybody gives a little so that everyone can have a decent living. Being healthy is part of that, and everyone has a right. Not everyone can earn the money needed, so those who do help them out. What's the big deal? It's a win-win situation, and it only costs you a few bucks/quid/Euros/whatever a month. In exchange, everything you need is basically free of charge.

Well, there are many ways to do things. it doesn't necessarily have to involve the government if you want to live a better life.

If I was going to pay every month for doctors, I might as well pay to go see one when I'm sick...because all this add up at the end of the year...and i can choose to pay for a very affordable cheap insurance, that covers serious injuries and illnesses, which is still cheaper than the government deducting it from my paycheck every month. In Sweden they pay up to 82% in income taxes. Plus I can choose not to pay for a really darn cheap and good insurance, or I can if I want...and there would be many to choose from... The government doesn't necessarily have to step in and tell me what I should do.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

I don't know about Canadian healthcare, but here in Germany, it's pretty awesome. It's democratic. People are taken care of, because that's how it works: everybody gives a little so that everyone can have a decent living. Being healthy is part of that, and everyone has a right. Not everyone can earn the money needed, so those who do help them out. What's the big deal? It's a win-win situation, and it only costs you a few bucks/quid/Euros/whatever a month. In exchange, everything you need is basically free of charge.

I'm told that reform efforts have left German's healthcare system with "funding holes." Still, what I've heard is it's better than the UK's model.