TNG vs DS9?

[Nyotarules]

For me TNG is the rewatchable one, revisiting DS9 is rare for me.
However, I watched some of the latter seasons of DS9 this spring. While there are some nice episodes the whole thing kind of falls apart. Partially because it has an ongoing story, it's not easy to skip a crap episode if it has something in it that needs to be seen in order to understand the whole plot.
Standalone episodes for the win.

I'm wondering, what exactly is a fairy tale human? One that does the right thing? Some say that DS9 has more realistic human characters, well maybe if you look at humans today. While few hundred years is not a massive leap into the future, it's not that hard to imagine that all of humanity could be better if it has what it needs.

I believe one of the rules of the TNG crew was 'no conflict',also other silly things like, humans dealing with death as if its no big deal. There was an episode where a child's mother was killed in the line of duty and the way the adults handled the child was terrible. Some GR mantra about in the future humans won't be bothered by death or some other nonsense?

Food and drink, medication, wealth enough to not worry about surviving until next months paycheck, help when there's a problem and other things that make life more pleasant, people could be better?.

So you telling me all the wealthy/mega rich people living today who do not have the above issues are better humans? Really?

 

[JesterFace]

I believe one of the rules of the TNG crew was 'no conflict',also other silly things like, humans dealing with death as if its no big deal. There was an episode where a child's mother was killed in the line of duty and the way the adults handled the child was terrible. Some GR mantra about in the future humans won't be bothered by death or some other nonsense?

First time I've heard of death not being a big deal.

So you telling me all the wealthy/mega rich people living today who do not have the above issues are better humans? Really?

Well, it wouldn't hurt if everybody had what they need?

 

[Nyotarules]

First time I've heard of death not being a big deal.


Well, it wouldn't hurt if everybody had what they need?

You assume if people had what they need they will be better humans? The fact that some real life humans who have what they need (and have it in abundance) are not better humans now or even in ages past does not bode well for the future.

 

[JesterFace]

You assume if people had what they need they will be better humans? The fact that some real life humans who have what they need (and have it in abundance) are not better humans now or even in ages past does not bode well for the future.

Humanity sucks apparently. I also suck for not getting my point across.

 

[Nyotarules]

Humanity sucks apparently. I also suck for not getting my point across.

Yep some humans do suck, the TNG went down the humans have evolved road, Deep space nine stuck with humans will always be humans, similar to the TOS concept. We get better but we are never perfect. Do you believe you have evolved and are closer to perfection than your 18th century ancestors?
BTW you got your point across, I stll disagree with it.

 

[fireproof78]

I believe one of the rules of the TNG crew was 'no conflict',also other silly things like, humans dealing with death as if its no big deal. There was an episode where a child's mother was killed in the line of duty and the way the adults handled the child was terrible. Some GR mantra about in the future humans won't be bothered by death or some other nonsense?

Indeed. "The Bonding" was needing a rework because when Michael Piller bought it from Ron Moore it was originally about a child struggling with his mom's death by hiding in the holodeck. But, Roddneberry told him to rework it because "People don't mourn in the future. Death is accepted as a part of life."

 

[JesterFace]

Yep some humans do suck, the TNG went down the humans have evolved road, Deep space nine stuck with humans will always be humans, similar to the TOS concept. We get better but we are never perfect. Do you believe you have evolved and are closer to perfection than your 18th century ancestors?
BTW you got your point across, I stll disagree with it.

I'm not sure I got my point across because I'm tired, it's past midnight. Maybe later.

I don't think I'm better than previous generations. I guess the point is that if life gets easier without greed and all that it's easier to be good. It may not be evolution but maybe humanity will learn to behave and respect others if life isn't hard as it is today. Right now 5% of people control 95% of the wealth on Earth. If that were to change, who knows how things could change. A world where you can be you without constant worrying about something, it could improve us.

 

[Nyotarules]

Indeed. "The Bonding" was needing a rework because when Michael Piller bought it from Ron Moore it was originally about a child struggling with his mom's death by hiding in the holodeck. But, Roddneberry told him to rework it because "People don't mourn in the future. Death is accepted as a part of life."

IOW humans have evolved to become heartless and lack empathy. An idea inspired by dodgy 'medication'?

 

[JesterFace]

Indeed. "The Bonding" was needing a rework because when Michael Piller bought it from Ron Moore it was originally about a child struggling with his mom's death by hiding in the holodeck. But, Roddneberry told him to rework it because "People don't mourn in the future. Death is accepted as a part of life."

Really? I didn't know that. Woah, I wonder how I will feel about that episode in the future....

 

[Nyotarules]

I'm not sure I got my point across because I'm tired, it's past midnight. Maybe later.

I don't think I'm better than previous generations. I guess the point is that if life gets easier without greed and all that it's easier to be good. It may not be evolution but maybe humanity will learn to behave and respect others if life isn't hard as it is today. Right now 5% of people control 95% of the wealth on Earth. If that were to change, who knows how things could change. A world where you can be you without constant worrying about something, it could improve us.

It might improve some humans but it won't change humans deep down. I like the TOS perspective, 'we choose not to kill TODAY'. or extend it to 'we choose not to be racist, sexist assholes TODAY'. Rather than 'we lost the ability to be racist, sexist, greedy, vengeful assholes because we have evolved from all that nonsense, plus we have replicators'.
For every human Picard that chose to better themselves (TNG First Contact) there is a human Liam Bilby (DS9 Honor among thieves) that did not.
The way I see it, human culture and social values change, but humans are still humans.

 

[JesterFace]

The way I see it, human culture and social values change, but humans are still humans.

I see your point. And I almost want to say I stand corrected. I guess I was looking at the whole thing from a perspective where everyone is happy so things can't go wrong.
It's just easier for humans to behave when things are in order. If things do change for the better, might that change us all and how we behave? There are differences between us and people from few hundred years in the past. We are basically the same "thing" but learned to be better? Maybe that continues and people get better as time goes by. Well, it was past midnight an hour ago and I'm still here.. so what I just wrote might not make any sense.

 

[JesterFace]

But I just got to say.... maybe I shouldn't even read Trek forums or some background information about episodes? That thing about 'The Bonding' was weird. It's a good episode but after knowing about that rewriting.... is it still the same? Fortunately it's not the only good episode of TNG.

 

[fireproof78]

IOW humans have evolved to become heartless and lack empathy. An idea inspired by dodgy 'medication'?

I mean there was the whole neural neuralizer that was wiping away more than just the bad impulses

Really? I didn't know that. Woah, I wonder how I will feel about that episode in the future....

Look up Michael Piller's "Fade In" and his discussion around the "Roddenberry Box."

 

[Agony_Boothb]

DS9 all the way for breakfast lunch and dinner.

TNG is barely watchable for me now.

 

[Arpy]

It might improve some humans but it won't change humans deep down. I like the TOS perspective, 'we choose not to kill TODAY'. or extend it to 'we choose not to be racist, sexist assholes TODAY'. Rather than 'we lost the ability to be racist, sexist, greedy, vengeful assholes because we have evolved from all that nonsense, plus we have replicators'.
For every human Picard that chose to better themselves (TNG First Contact) there is a human Liam Bilby (DS9 Honor among thieves) that did not.
The way I see it, human culture and social values change, but humans are still humans.

I never bought into DS9’s take on “Earth being the problem” because “it’s easy to be a saint in paradise.” Tell that to Adam and Eve.

Humans didn’t evolve because their stomachs were full or because they evolved in a biological sense to lose a “bigotry gene.”

They evolved over centuries and millennia of slow but valuable social and economic change. We would “self-actualize.” Roddenberry told Frakes that in the 24the century everyone would be fed and that “all the children would know how to read.” If it were just a matter of the replicator fulfilling base animal needs, we’d devolve into an “idiocracy,” or, as H.G. Wells presented it, into Elois. Who cares about reading? But for Roddenberry, the idea was that we’d “evolve” into the best versions of ourselves because “the human adventure is just beginning.”

 

[Arpy]

But I just got to say.... maybe I shouldn't even read Trek forums or some background information about episodes? That thing about 'The Bonding' was weird. It's a good episode but after knowing about that rewriting.... is it still the same? Fortunately it's not the only good episode of TNG.

I think the idea in “The Bonding” was that we’d evolve to understand the place death and loss have in all of our lives. We’d be more aware of it and appreciate each other while we are here and as gracefully as possible accept when our loved ones go.

Presumably this takes years of experience from early on with, say, losing grandparents or beloved pets or other relations, and overall having a more mindful focus on the present instead of an ultimately delusional, if today common, idea of relationship permanence.

And where we each falter to understand this, there is compassion. I found it touching when Picard told Jeremy when he said I am alone now that “on the starship Enterprise, no one is ever alone.”

They’re not fake humans or callous ones; they’re more “realistic” than we are in the real world today.

That was how I understood the episode anyway.

 

[fireproof78]

They’re not fake humans or callous ones; they’re more “realistic” than we are in the real world today.

More realistic? O_O Humans process grief and provide support in a wide variety of ways. Not sure if one or the other is more realistic.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

DS9 is the Trek series I rewatch more than any others, it still feels relevant to what is going on today. I honestly can't remember the last time I watched a TNG episode, though I still have a good deal of affection for the show.

 

[JesterFace]

Well, after all that and a good night sleep, I hope I can still enjoy 'The Bonding' in the future because it's a great episode.