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TITAN too diverse?

Re: TITAN to diverse?

it was a joke....but the damage control and efficeny issues remain mainly because they are Human-centric designs....the modular interiors was mentioned in the TNG tech mannule but that would only ease in construction and componet switch out....when you have all those diffrent atmospheres that leads to a dangerous combination if the ships are put in a dangerous situation for crew
 
captcalhoun said:
could a mod please alter the topic title so that it's grammatically correct as it bugs the shit out of me that it's wrong.
atually it's been bugging me since it first appeared, but I thought it was no big deal. If the OP doesn't object, then yeah one of us can fix it.
 
Re: TITAN to diverse?

Red Ranger said:
Well, let me first say I haven't read any of the Titan books, so I have no idea if the detailed descriptions of life forms and their manifold differences would annoy me. I have a feeling it wouldn't.

I also think those who are put off by diversity should think about what that says about their own characters and inability to stretch their minds and imagination, not to mention perhaps a hidden disdain for the concept of diversity itself. If so, what a, uh, surprise.

Red Ranger
If you haven't read any of the books, it's really not your place to judge. Virtually all of the people who have objected to the racial diversity have done so on a level of disappointment with the execution, not with the idea of it. I absolutely admit that I can be a bigoted ass, but for you to suggest that I should "look into my soul" because I object to a particular style of writing is high-handed.
 
Re: TITAN to diverse?

IMHO, it's not a problem that Titan has a diverse cast. The problem is that I haven't seen anything terribly interesting done with that diversity.

With apologies to Christopher, I'm going to point to Orion's Hounds for an example. The first scene of Chapter 13 is in the mess hall, and we have the herbivorous species upset because the carnivorous species are at the other table loudly telling hunting stories. Big tension amongst the crew because of some very deep cultural and racial differences, a situation ripe for some kind of dramatic confrontation, a perfect little crucible for a social experiment. And yet... all those tensions disappear in the blink of an eye when Christine Vale says, "Shame on you for seeing differences in this diverse crew!"

This, I think, is representative of how Titan's "diversity" is explored -- it's mentioned at almost every opportunity, but with all the building-up of the significance of this crew's makeup, there is no payoff. No matter how many dinosaurs or water-breathers or blue teddy bears get thrown into the mix, it's all as dramatically engaging as 1st season TNG.

All this said, I should point out that I have yet to read Sword. Perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised and find Ree has, in a fit of anger, made a late-night snack of Huilan...
 
Re: TITAN to diverse?

Fa-La-La-Leisner said:
And yet... all those tensions disappear in the blink of an eye when Christine Vale says, "Shame on you for seeing differences in this diverse crew!"

Now, that's a total misreading of what she says and does. The last thing she would do is ask people to pretend their differences don't exist. Rather, the idea is to stop using differences as an excuse for division and to make an effort to understand and learn from those who are different.

I won't deny that the series has yet to make a big, overriding issue of the differences among the crew. But I disagree that that's a bad thing. In real life, we do often have big, major conflicts arising from the differences between people, true. But an equally real obstacle to a fully inclusive, IDIC-driven society is the everyday stuff, the little things that come up when people have to live and work alongside each other on a regular basis. That's what Titan is about -- that ongoing, everyday effort to make this work.

The reason why those big conflicts don't erupt is because this is Starfleet, not the Galactica or the Serenity. All these people are here because they want to be here, because they believe in Starfleet's idealistic values and want to make this inclusive crew work. Nobody here is going to be inclined to burn a cross or don a white hood. The catch is, it's easier to profess those principles than it is to live by them on an everyday basis in the face of ongoing irritants and sources of discomfort. If we're not careful, we can all fall back into our easy patterns of sticking with our own kind. Take away the big confrontations and the melodrama, and diversity is still easy to lose because it's the little things that cumulatively make people turn away from it if they don't make an ongoing effort.

So whatever payoff there might be to these tensions, it's not going to be quick and obvious, because that's not the inclination of these characters. They're all trying to make it work. But whether they succeed or fail, and whether that failure is with a bang or a whimper -- that's a long-term question.
 
Re: TITAN to diverse?

Honestly thats not a good enough reason even though they may have the same values doesn't mean they will get along if there instincual (SP?) culture and biological values are so vastly diffrent
 
captcalhoun said:
could a mod please alter the topic title so that it's grammatically correct as it bugs the shit out of me that it's wrong.



Oh man! I am so sorry! I didn't even see my typo.
I hope someone can change it. I am a habitual typo-maker.
:brickwall:

I want to add that I must have been in a bad mood when I made the original post. My second post represents my opinion much better. I love diversity! I love that The Original Series featured A Russian, A black Woman, and A Vulcan. And I am glad that diversity has been a major theme of all of the following series since then. Diversity is one of the most important parts of Star Trek. I am not saying that I want an all human crew. Heck no! I think I just have some trouble picturing this crew. I do plan on continuing to read the series. I know that when you start a new series, with a bunch of new characters, you have to do a lot of describing them. I'm sure that once I get to know the characters a little better that the series will be more fun to read.
 
Re: TITAN to diverse?

I think the idea is that, especially for members of the United Planets, there are supervening Life views that add up to inter-species cooperation. It's all well and good to pay lip service to inclusion and "diversity" but how do you actually walk the walk?

TITAN is an experiment. Riker's Experiment. EVERY interaction either serves his goal or refutes it. Every time Aili and Oort flirt on the bridge or Dakal gives Hsuuri the eye or Hriss DOESN'T kill some guy and eat him, Riker wins.

And so does Starfleet and so do we.
 
Re: TITAN to diverse?

Christopher said:
the idea is to stop using differences as an excuse for division and to make an effort to understand and learn from those who are different.

Yep. The mistake would be to suddenly resolve everyone's attitudes after one incident where the differences made the difference in resolving a dilemma, because then you end up losing the long-term tensions you've deliberately set up. Everyone can't suddenly see the error of their ways and move on; there will always be new tensions that crop up.

Actually the 21st century workplace is a good model: there will always be people with more or less training, people of previous career paths who want to do things differently, the "fish out of water" overseas exchangee, mothers returning from maternity leave and balancing their time, people who are less-compelled to learn new technology, ambitious types who inadvertently (or deliberately) stomp on the aspirations of others in their climb to the top, age differences, class differences, race differences. There are times of tranquility, when it appears the company or faculty runs like a well-oiled machine, but there'll always be challenges to that status quo, if not from within this time, then external pressures.

In VOY the producers went to so much trouble adding Maquis crew (and only a few with Starfleet training, IIRC) to the regular Starfleet mix and stranding them far from home, so they could have the ongoing friction that Starfleet supposedly had resolved in the 24th century, only to have the tensions vanish after the first few episodes, and only rear up a few times over the next seven years.

If suddenly the editors or Paula Block decreed that "Titan" was indeed "too diverse", suddenly you'd have a whole lot of readers who've been hanging out for more diverse crews complaining.

After TMP, I expected the Pocket writers to embrace the alien crewmembers glimpsed - but tantalizingly-described by the publicity materials via Fletcher's and Phillips' costume/makeup notes. In the main, the new alien UFP races were practically ignored by the novels until "Ex Machina". I recall being very excited by the first Marvel Comics run 9as bad as its stories may have been), which did use them (at least visually, but sometimes giving them dialogue), and the LA Times Syndicate post-TMP comic strip (as hard as it was to locate them), the first few stories of which made excellent use out of them.

As I said earlier, Riker's experiment is the same as the experiment I did in 1980, with my very first fanfic. But the "Titan" writers (plus "Ex Machina") are doing it so much better than I could have dreamed of doing.
 
Re: TITAN to diverse?

Until Titan started it was New Frontier that I immediately associated with a colourful crew, the series with the most diverse crew in the Star Trek universe. Titan is indeed going further than NF and I welcome that. I still haven`t finished “Sword of Damocles” (I wish I had more time to read!) but I can already say that I also enjoy this Titan book first of all because of the many different aliens and how they interact with each other. I could already see that in this latest book crewmembers had opportunities to learn from each other and there were certainly some surprises, discoveries I didn`t expect. I intend to write a detailed review, whenever I finally find the time.

Even when you put humans together you will find out quickly that individual differences can cause frictions and people can get on each others nerves. Add aliens to the mix and there is much more potential for problems. Even with Starfleet training you can`t switch off instinctive reactions but you can learn to control them. I think so far Titan is exploring this very well.

What I enjoy in Titan is that this series (as well as most “modern” Star Trek books) have finally moved away from what has been shown on TV so often: The predominantly human crew comes to the aid of an alien culture, Starfleet has the answers and the aliens embrace what is offered so generously with gratitude. And at the end the viewer is left with the warm feeling that humanity has grown into something remarkable. Maybe we will even get some self congratulation speech. It is about time that humanity is not shown as a bunch of saints and that humans can actually learn something from aliens.

On the other hand, I think Titan should not shy away from exploring the limits as well, questions like when is IDIC, accepting other cultures and views, going too far? People living on the Titan must agree to Starfleet laws and regulations. Where do you draw the line?

I don`t mind longer descriptions about alien cultures and how people think and feel. I find that interesting. I have much more trouble to keep interested in the other aspect of exploration, meaning real life and not so real life technobabble and treknobabble. It happens more than once that I am tempted to skip paragraphs here and there. I usually force myself to at least try to understand what the author is trying to tell me but it takes real effort sometimes.

Voyager was first of all a collection of missed opportunities. Especially Titan has a lot of potential to explore a really diverse crew. So far, I enjoy it a lot but I also think that there is room for much more.
 
Not a heck of a lot to add, I think that there is a lot of opportunity for story telling with Titan. We as readers have to pick and choose what we enjoy. It may not be your cup of tea, but something else will be.
 
I will be reading Ex Machina shortly, within the next couple of days probably since I am now on my xmas holiday and have plenty of time to read, and just wondered if there were any plans to do a sequel to it, continuing the adventures of the post-TMP crew?
 
^^I'd love to do a sequel, but it doesn't seem like there's enough audience interest in the post-TMP period to justify one. Although I was able to offer a few more glimpses of the post-TMP period in Mere Anarchy Book 4: The Darkness Drops Again.
 
Christopher said:
^^I'd love to do a sequel, but it doesn't seem like there's enough audience interest in the post-TMP period to justify one.

Sigh. Mind you, you've helped to popularize the idea that TMP's alien races are worth using, 'cos they pop up all over the place now! ;)

lacrew1.jpg
 
Re: TITAN to diverse?

J47 said:
Red Ranger said:
Well, let me first say I haven't read any of the Titan books, so I have no idea if the detailed descriptions of life forms and their manifold differences would annoy me. I have a feeling it wouldn't.

I also think those who are put off by diversity should think about what that says about their own characters and inability to stretch their minds and imagination, not to mention perhaps a hidden disdain for the concept of diversity itself. If so, what a, uh, surprise.

Red Ranger
If you haven't read any of the books, it's really not your place to judge. Virtually all of the people who have objected to the racial diversity have done so on a level of disappointment with the execution, not with the idea of it. I absolutely admit that I can be a bigoted ass, but for you to suggest that I should "look into my soul" because I object to a particular style of writing is high-handed.

Hello, there, bigoted ass! I'm high-handed, pleased to meet you! Hope you won't discriminate against me because of that! Hehehehehe! I was objecting less to the style of writing and more to the idea that wild diversity had some people's knickers in a twist -- although the OP clarified his position quite nicely. And on my reading list is the first Titan novel. I'm intrigued. -- RR
 
Well, there is some audience interest. I brought Ex Machina because it was also a book like Riker's Great Experiment, and I am sure I will enjoy reading it, since I have all of your other books, Chris.

I'll be waiting for that sequel, and let's hope it comes out along with AOTF 2.
 
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