TITAN too diverse?

[Sci]

Re: TITAN to [sic] diverse?

Merry Stitchmas said:
^ You never could take even the slightest hint of criticism, could you? You could learn a thing or two from the professional writers like TerriO, Krad, Davey Mack, Bobby G., etc.

Christopher has taken plenty of criticism, and is as much a professional writer as the others. He's raising a completely valid point with regards to that criticism of Star Trek: Titan: That it is a fundamentally misguided criticism based on a lack of understanding of the intent of the text. Further, he also stated that the approach of Titan is one that may not appeal to the individual tastes of all readers, and that that is perfectly fine. But the original poster suggested that Titan was somehow not functioning according to creative intent, when it, in fact, is functioning according to creative intent, and Mr. Bennett had every right to explain this.

Mind, I've gotten into some very strong debates with Christopher in the past. He and I certainly don't agree on everything. But he has, in my experience, never engaged in personal attacks, and, in this thread, has been infinitely more tolerant and patient and respectful than you have been.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Re: TITAN to [sic] diverse?

I told Omaha to drop that line of discussion. That holds true for everyone else, too, so knock it off.

 

[Vic Sixx]

Re: TITAN to [sic] diverse?

I was one of those that felt it was too diverse, if you're gonna spend 1/3 or half the book just introducing your crew, what does that leave for story? But the second and third books flowed alot better. Although I wish they had made Dr. Ree a gorn instead of a dinosaur, and all the giant blob like crew with tentacles was a little difficult for me to picture but that's just me I guess.

It is described as an experiment, does that mean it's gonna end at some point? When Picard was asked in First Contact the number of Fed. member planets he said 150. That always seemed like a low ball number to me, and you gotta assume some or most of those are human planets. Was he lying?

But as I said I didn't much like Taking Wing, the Riker character didn't have the emotional impact I expected Riker to have, he was written too much like Picard, but 2 and 3 were much better. I will pick up #4 at some point.

 

[Christopher]

Vic Sixx said:
It is described as an experiment, does that mean it's gonna end at some point?

Not if it works. The goal is to see if truly different species can work effectively together on the same crew. If the answer is yes, there's no reason to go backward.

When Picard was asked in First Contact the number of Fed. member planets he said 150. That always seemed like a low ball number to me, and you gotta assume some or most of those are human planets. Was he lying?

He may have been referring only to the birth planets of the various member species, as opposed to their colonies. Or there may be many worlds that are affiliated with the UFP at some level below full membership, like Puerto Rico and Guam vis a vis the US.

 

[Sci]

Christopher said:

Vic Sixx said:
It is described as an experiment, does that mean it's gonna end at some point?

Not if it works. The goal is to see if truly different species can work effectively together on the same crew. If the answer is yes, there's no reason to go backward.

When Picard was asked in First Contact the number of Fed. member planets he said 150. That always seemed like a low ball number to me, and you gotta assume some or most of those are human planets. Was he lying?

He may have been referring only to the birth planets of the various member species, as opposed to their colonies. Or there may be many worlds that are affiliated with the UFP at some level below full membership, like Puerto Rico and Guam vis a vis the US.

Nan Bacco's speech to Starfleet Academy in Articles of the Federation makes it clear that many Federation Members have governing authority over multiple planets themselves, and that the polity possessing authority over those multiple planets is what itself constitutes the Member, not the individual planets.

So, just like Long Island isn't a state in the Union, but is instead under the jurisdiction of the State of New York, which includes the islands of Long Island and Manhattan as well as mainland territory, or just like the islands of the Hawaiian chain are not individual states but are instead all part of the State of Hawaii, there are Federation planets that are not Federation Members.

 

[Mysterion]

Re: TITAN to diverse?

Therin of Andor said:
I've found many regular ST novels not diverse enough, especially after ST:TMP featured so many cool aliens on the ship. Give me Alan Dean Foster's "ST Logs", Diane Duane's Sulamid and Horta, Christopher Bennett's "Ex Machina", and the multi-world crew of the "Titan" any day!

True. My take on it is: Okay, Titan is diverse. fine. But, reading a couple of the books it seems like we get hit over the head with that point again, and again as if to say "hey, look! we're being diverse! aren't we wonderful?". But, if you go back and read Diane Duane's stuff, for example, that's just the way things are. She doesn't make it out to be a big deal that the Enterprise would have a diverse crew. It just is what it is, and why wouldn't it be? Works a lot better for me.

IMO. YMMV.

 

[Maestro]

Despite my issues (and I've read the first three books), I fully intend to forge ahead with the fourth when I get a chance to get a copy.

The last time this question came up, Christopher, David Mack, and I got into a good ol' shouting match over the issue. In the end, they convinced me to give the next book a try, and I'm glad they did. I hope it turns out to be a good book.

 

[Sci]

Re: TITAN to diverse?

Mysterion said:
My take on it is: Okay, Titan is diverse. fine. But, reading a couple of the books it seems like we get hit over the head with that point again, and again as if to say "hey, look! we're being diverse! aren't we wonderful?".

I no more felt that we were being hit over the head with the diversity of the Titan crew than that we were being hit over the head with the fact that the Enterprise is set on a space ship in TOS, or that we were being hit over the head with the idea that "there are many secrets in the Taurus Expanse" in Vanguard.

But, if you go back and read Diane Duane's stuff, for example, that's just the way things are. She doesn't make it out to be a big deal that the Enterprise would have a diverse crew. It just is what it is, and why wouldn't it be? Works a lot better for me.

Personally, I don't care for that style, because it comes across as being, well, dishonest. Diversity is a good thing, but it's also something that many people react to negatively. It's not in peoples' natures to react to things that are different in a positive manner. People feel threatened by difference, and that leads to conflict, and so I think Titan's take is more realistic and honest.

 

[Christopher]

Mysterion said:
But, if you go back and read Diane Duane's stuff, for example, that's just the way things are. She doesn't make it out to be a big deal that the Enterprise would have a diverse crew. It just is what it is, and why wouldn't it be? Works a lot better for me.

I understand your point, but as I said before, we have to follow what's onscreen. Televised Trek does not show us a 24th-century Starfleet where humanoids and nonhumanoids are comfortably integrated. If anything, it shows us a Starfleet that's alarmingly segregated, where most ships we see have overwhelmingly human crews.

So a book series that wants to show a more diverse ship can't just pretend it's always been like that. Diane Duane could because her books were written at a time when there was much less televised Trek in existence and authors were freer to reinterpret the universe, and because she had the precedent of ST:TMP to build on, a precedent that hadn't yet been negated by hundreds of episodes' worth of human-dominated crews. These days, it's not really an option. If we're going to postulate a ship with a very diverse crew, we have to address the fact that it's unusual within the context of the Trek universe as defined by canon.

Besides, with all respect to Ms. Duane and her lovely vision, it's a bit idealized to show a crew of radically alien beings getting along effortlessly and comfortably all the time. For them to be truly alien, they'd have to have alien ways of thinking and acting, alien belief systems and customs, and those would realistically be expected to come into conflict at times. It would be an issue.

To me, as a writer and a reader, a large part of the interest in stories about aliens is in their alienness, the things that make them different in thought and action as well as appearance. I find it fascinating to see the clash of cultures and values, to explore how beings with such differences figure out ways to live with each other or understand each other.

 

[Trent Roman]

Re: TITAN to diverse?

Getting into the discussion late, but I agree with Christopher and Sci. There wouldn't have been much point in making Titan into TNG Redux, so we needed something to differentiate the series from all the others. That was the setting: firstly, that the Titan itself is, internally, an ongoing sociological experiment in seeing how far the diverse needs of the varied Federation species (and others) can be mutually accomodated; secondly, that the Titan is way out there on a mission of long-term exploration in uncharted territory. These are the premises of the series (and given that the second didn't actually start until Book 3, the first premise is even more important in unifying the series). If you don't like the setting, you don't like the setting, but it's churlish to complain that the authors are cleaving to the series' premise. Might as well argue that Deep Space Nine spends too much time on 'Bajoran stuff', or Voyager had too little Starfleet presence other than the Voyager itself. I have never felt that the diversity of the Titan gets in the way of the adventure because the interiority of the Titan is part of the adventure, the inner exploration of people and cultures reflecting the outer exploration of space and civilizations.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Vic Sixx]

You make a very good points. As to being segregated back in Kirk's day, I always thought, Starfleet member planets were in charge of policing their own systems, there are Starfleet ships with all Vulcan crews, or all Andorian crews, if the Klingons joined there would be ships with all Klingon crews. Some of that segregation might have been by choice. Or so I thought back then.

With only a dozen constellation class ships, there could not have been jobs for everybody who wanted to serve on one of those ships. Of course this does not explain the TNG era.

 

[LightningStorm]

I've voiced my opinion on this issue before and feeling, even then, that I didn't get the point across correctly, I think after having read this that I can better explain my views on this. And perhaps help clarify possibly some others' views too.

I too feel like Titan is pushing the diversity issue down our throats a bit too forcefully. Now, having said that, I realize what that sounds like to someone who can't read my mind. It comes off as a sort of "I don't like Titan's extreme diversity." No, no, no! That is painfully far away from what I really mean. So let me attempt to verbalize this for you non-psychics.

What I mean to say is that Titan's extreme diversity is a perfectly OK thing with me, it was in fact one of the things that made me want to get into it to begin with. The problem seems to be the execution of the diversity and its ensuing issues. The diversity of the crew could very well be even more diverse than it is and when executed well could be quite good. One could, in fact, write stories that don't have them doing any external exploration and dealing solely with the internal diversity situations and that could be good. It's just that (for me at least, obviously not everyone) there is something that is coming across in the writing that feels forced when it comes to the internal issues. So much so that myself (and apparently some others) are more interested in and care more for their external affairs than the internal ones to a point where the internal stuff feels like a chore to read.

Now, that's not to say I haven't found any parts of Titan that deal in the internal diversity issue that I like, I most definitely have, the problem is those have been outnumbered by the ones I don't like.

What I'm saying all comes down to execution of the theme rather than the theme itself. This, obviously, is subjective. What's the favored acronym used around here? Oh yes.. YMMV.

 

[Corran Horn]

There are a bunch of points that have been brought up in regards to Titan the diversity that I've really enjoyed. It shows the authors have really thought the situation out.

Points like: Species that require different atmospheres (an obvious one), Dietary requirements (yum, raw meat), species that are too big to fit into turbolifts, or too short to access panels, etc. These are real issues that would definitely come up. It's obvious Starships (at least the parts of them we've seen, and definitely the main areas) are design for the humanoid form.

Well what about it Lt. Commando Sluggo from the planet Sludgiac IV only has short, stubby arms?

It's an interesting issue, and I'm glad they've tried their best to deal with these points in Titan.

 

[Amy Sisson]

Re: TITAN to diverse?

Christopher said:
The emphasis of Titan is on taking the Trek concept of diversity in combination to its logical extreme -- exploring a ship that's a crucible for the concept, that makes it a challenge for the crew by immersing them in real, no-punches-pulled diversity rather than just a bunch of humanoids with spots or forehead bumps. The adventure is there, but it's as much internal as external -- the new life and new civilizations being explored are right there on the ship, and the challenge and tension come as much from the efforts of the crew to understand each other and overcome the obstacles between them as from the external threat-of-the-week.

This discussion (the quoted description in particular) has made me move the Titan novels closer to the top of my "to be read" pile. I love aliens that go beyond the usual humanoid parameters. To me, this is what science fiction is all about -- examining humanity by examining that which is as different from humanity as possible.

[I hope that sentence made sense. I'm at the end of my work week here, and the brain is fried.]

 

[Red Ranger]

Re: TITAN to diverse?

Well, let me first say I haven't read any of the Titan books, so I have no idea if the detailed descriptions of life forms and their manifold differences would annoy me. I have a feeling it wouldn't.

I also think those who are put off by diversity should think about what that says about their own characters and inability to stretch their minds and imagination, not to mention perhaps a hidden disdain for the concept of diversity itself. If so, what a, uh, surprise.

From what I've heard described, the diversity aboard Titan should be seen as a metaphor for the melting pot of the U.S. -- not just racial and ethnic differences, but the differences between so-called "normal" people and those with disabilities like being in wheelchairs or blind. That's one way I interpret it.

Plus, as others have mentioned, authors like Diane Duane and one of my favorites, Vonda McIntyre, have done such great jobs visualizing wildly different species. It's fun, frankly, and it's something you can't do on a TV or even movie budget. So much more imaginative.

For those of you who enjoy such speculation in science fiction, I highly recommend the short story series, "Best SF" that's been running since the late 1990s, where they explore such concepts as posthuman development, as well as multiple "branes" or dimensions, where humanoid life is the exception rather than the rule.

Red Ranger

 

[Red Ranger]

Re: TITAN to diverse?

Amy Sisson said:

Christopher said:
The emphasis of Titan is on taking the Trek concept of diversity in combination to its logical extreme -- exploring a ship that's a crucible for the concept, that makes it a challenge for the crew by immersing them in real, no-punches-pulled diversity rather than just a bunch of humanoids with spots or forehead bumps. The adventure is there, but it's as much internal as external -- the new life and new civilizations being explored are right there on the ship, and the challenge and tension come as much from the efforts of the crew to understand each other and overcome the obstacles between them as from the external threat-of-the-week.

This discussion (the quoted description in particular) has made me move the Titan novels closer to the top of my "to be read" pile. I love aliens that go beyond the usual humanoid parameters. To me, this is what science fiction is all about -- examining humanity by examining that which is as different from humanity as possible.

[I hope that sentence made sense. I'm at the end of my work week here, and the brain is fried.]

Amy: It did indeed make sense. Just wanted to say I agree wholeheartedly with your comments -- in other words, your brain isn't fried! -- RR

 

[BrentMc]

Re: TITAN to diverse?

Wow, look what I started! I guess I touched a nerve. I'm sorry if my post was a bit harsh. I meant no disrespect to the authors. I like the Titan books including "Orion's Hounds" by fellow poster C.L.B. I probably will keep reading the books. Maybe it was just a little tough getting used to a new crew that is hard to picture. I like to visualize the story as I read. Maybe some official crew drawings would help me. I also think I need to read s summary of the first three before I begin the fourth to get me back into it. Funny thing about my post is that I love diversity. I love meeting people from all over the world. I guess I just had a hard time getting into the Titan novels, trying to picture this crew and remember all the details about them. Plus, as a Human male, I generally like to read stories that allow me to put myself into the action, so having human characters makes it easier to identify with them. I have been looking forward to see/read Stories of Captain Riker, with his own Starship. I hope we will see some good Titan/Enterprise-E crossovers in the future. There probably are some that I haven't gotten to yet. Thanks for the replies to my comment. I respect all opinions. IDIC

 

[philbob]

Re: TITAN to diverse?

From a technical point all the diversity would not be a good use of the ships resources and would make damage control a nightmare..so its more likely the ship racial makeup would be a forced political agenda by the Federation elite

seriously though from an engineering standpoint its not the most efficent use of the ship or platform

 

[Geoff Thorne]

Re: TITAN to diverse?

In a civilization as diverse as the Federation has been established to be it would simply be standard procedure to build ships with modular interiors in order to facilitate the various species who might be called in as crew.

What is ILLOGICAL is the established, human-centric, design. The reason we have it is because STAR TREK is a show made by humans for the consumption of humans and it used to cost an INCREDIBLE about of money to manufacture truly alien aliens on a week-to-week basis.

The books have no such constraints.

Also, as a fictional entity, STAR TREK was created in part to grapple with the big social issues of the day while giving the audience enough emotional distance to actually think about them without picking up a brick to throw.

The TITAN series, with its attention on "diversity" and exploration (rather than combat) is about as old school Trek as it gets.

I wish I'd thought of it first.

 

[captcalhoun]

could a mod please alter the topic title so that it's grammatically correct as it bugs the shit out of me that it's wrong.