Yeah, that's where I was going with that. Even a painless and immediate abortion would likely be fairly traumatic for the mother all things considered.
Titan: And the issue of Abortion (Destiny Spoilers)
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Yeah, that's where I was going with that. Even a painless and immediate abortion would likely be fairly traumatic for the mother all things considered.
Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea (SPOILERS)
I agree.
And, slightly OT, from Battle for Betazed, did TNG the series show that Betazoids were pacifists who didn't like to take life, as soldiers etc., or does that only exist in lit? I haven't watched a lot of TNG.
I don't think I replied to this post?
Anyway, I know that part of it from the book. What I meant was- at the time, she knew that Ree wanted to have her reproductive parts removed to prevent further pregnancy because of that risk. And even tho the already conceived child was going to die, because she had already been so traumatized by her other miscarriage, she was desperate to hold onto the child at all costs, even what was at the time a lost cause.
I agree that she should have gone off duty or taken a leave for this.
I know she didn't like Ree after he gave that news, but it wasn't a good idea for her to remain on active duty... that was just... stubbornness on her part.
On the "quote" issue- sometimes the quotes mess up on me too when I'm replying, random people's posts won't show up. I don't think it was Sci's but it was annoying... but rare.
I agree.
And, slightly OT, from Battle for Betazed, did TNG the series show that Betazoids were pacifists who didn't like to take life, as soldiers etc., or does that only exist in lit? I haven't watched a lot of TNG.
I don't think I replied to this post?
Anyway, I know that part of it from the book. What I meant was- at the time, she knew that Ree wanted to have her reproductive parts removed to prevent further pregnancy because of that risk. And even tho the already conceived child was going to die, because she had already been so traumatized by her other miscarriage, she was desperate to hold onto the child at all costs, even what was at the time a lost cause.
I agree that she should have gone off duty or taken a leave for this.
I know she didn't like Ree after he gave that news, but it wasn't a good idea for her to remain on active duty... that was just... stubbornness on her part.
On the "quote" issue- sometimes the quotes mess up on me too when I'm replying, random people's posts won't show up. I don't think it was Sci's but it was annoying... but rare.
Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea
All the discussion of militaristic vs. martial aside - I simply don't see Starfleet as military. At least not in its entirety. Sorry.
I simply shudder at the mere thought of TV-Troi in command of a ship at war. She isn't trained in battle tactics, she has not even basic ideas of engineering etc. She'd do fine on a ship meant for diplomatic missions, but definitely not in battles. In times of major crises, Starfleet will of course fall back on all its ships, but in times of peace I do think that there are different sections to Starfleet - and only one of them is, what I'd call military. And to suddenly apply to *all of them* such a strict code goes against every notion I ever had about Starfleet.
But would she have been able to stay on as counselor, i.e. being able to work with the crew or just with the few civilians?
I meant to point out that there's a contradiction in the way it's shown that officers are free to lead their lives as they wish (even sleeping around with every colleague they find as if *that* wouldn't disrupt a ship's mission), and the way that freedom is curtailed by giving someone more or less free reign over one part of that life. It just doesn't fit together IMO.
All the discussion of militaristic vs. martial aside - I simply don't see Starfleet as military. At least not in its entirety. Sorry.
I simply shudder at the mere thought of TV-Troi in command of a ship at war. She isn't trained in battle tactics, she has not even basic ideas of engineering etc. She'd do fine on a ship meant for diplomatic missions, but definitely not in battles. In times of major crises, Starfleet will of course fall back on all its ships, but in times of peace I do think that there are different sections to Starfleet - and only one of them is, what I'd call military. And to suddenly apply to *all of them* such a strict code goes against every notion I ever had about Starfleet.
But would she have been able to stay on as counselor, i.e. being able to work with the crew or just with the few civilians?
I meant to point out that there's a contradiction in the way it's shown that officers are free to lead their lives as they wish (even sleeping around with every colleague they find as if *that* wouldn't disrupt a ship's mission), and the way that freedom is curtailed by giving someone more or less free reign over one part of that life. It just doesn't fit together IMO.
Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea
I'm sorry if you don't like the idea, but it's the reality of the situation. Starfleet is the Federation's armed forces, in addition to being its exploratory corps. That doesn't mean that Starfleet is militaristic, but it is a military. And much as you might shudder at Troi being in charge of a ship, it's important to remember that she passed the Bridge Officer's Training test that she needed to pass to gain the capacity to hold such command -- because she was willing and able to order someone to their death to protect the ship. She's got a harder edge than you're giving her credit for.
Yes, it's true that different branches of Starfleet specialize in different mission types. This is also true of current militaries -- not everyone in the Army could become part of the Army Corps of Engineers, and not everyone is a combat officer. That doesn't mean Starfleet isn't a military. It's a military that does far more than fight wars, in part because Federation political culture has evolved to a point where they recognize that exploration, peace-building, and diplomacy are equally important tools of national defense as combat. But it's still a military in the legal sense of the term, and every indication is that all Starfleet officers are subject to Starfleet regulations and the Uniform Code.
Well, ship's counselor is an officer's position within the medical department of Starfleet, so probably not. But it is important to remember that if she was truly committed to attempting to carry the fetus to term even if it meant dying, she did retain the option of resigning her commission.
But Starfleet officers don't have as much freedom as you're implying. There are several health-related regulations that inhibit an officer's liberty while commissioned:
I'm sorry if you don't like the idea, but it's the reality of the situation. Starfleet is the Federation's armed forces, in addition to being its exploratory corps. That doesn't mean that Starfleet is militaristic, but it is a military. And much as you might shudder at Troi being in charge of a ship, it's important to remember that she passed the Bridge Officer's Training test that she needed to pass to gain the capacity to hold such command -- because she was willing and able to order someone to their death to protect the ship. She's got a harder edge than you're giving her credit for.
Yes, it's true that different branches of Starfleet specialize in different mission types. This is also true of current militaries -- not everyone in the Army could become part of the Army Corps of Engineers, and not everyone is a combat officer. That doesn't mean Starfleet isn't a military. It's a military that does far more than fight wars, in part because Federation political culture has evolved to a point where they recognize that exploration, peace-building, and diplomacy are equally important tools of national defense as combat. But it's still a military in the legal sense of the term, and every indication is that all Starfleet officers are subject to Starfleet regulations and the Uniform Code.
Well, ship's counselor is an officer's position within the medical department of Starfleet, so probably not. But it is important to remember that if she was truly committed to attempting to carry the fetus to term even if it meant dying, she did retain the option of resigning her commission.
But Starfleet officers don't have as much freedom as you're implying. There are several health-related regulations that inhibit an officer's liberty while commissioned:
Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea
I'm actually kinda suprised by the number of people who don't think Starfleet is the UFPs military. I always thought it was made very clear in the shows that that was the case.
Actually, I think the Navy does play a pretty big role in a lot of the exploratory and scientific stuff that is going on in the oceans today. I'm pretty sure our modern day militaries are actually alot more involved in the sciences than most peopl think.
I'm actually kinda suprised by the number of people who don't think Starfleet is the UFPs military. I always thought it was made very clear in the shows that that was the case.
The TOS examples make sense. The last Voyager one much less - and that doesn`t surprise me.
There was even a regulation like "If there is a disagreement between the captains of two ships, the captain of the most powerful one wins." This is idiotic.
And in modern Star Trek, do officers who want to have a relationship with an alien (What does that mean? Someone who is not human?) really go to their captain and CMO asking for their approval!? I don`t think so.
Sometimes it is right that rules are being challenged. Sometimes it is even necessary.
There was even a regulation like "If there is a disagreement between the captains of two ships, the captain of the most powerful one wins." This is idiotic.
And in modern Star Trek, do officers who want to have a relationship with an alien (What does that mean? Someone who is not human?) really go to their captain and CMO asking for their approval!? I don`t think so.
Sometimes it is right that rules are being challenged. Sometimes it is even necessary.
I think it's obvious that the "alien" reference refers to non-Federation species. And, yes, "The Disease" makes it clear that if they want to engage in sexual relations with an alien lifeform, particularly newly-discovered ones, they need permission from their Commanding and Chief Medical Officers.
Which is fair enough, but that's different from willful disregard for the rules.
Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea
I'd like to exclude TOS from the whole discussion, honestly, because back then there were no civilians on board, no counselors etc. And frankly, I'd have liked to see the discussion between Kirk and McCoy every time Kirk wanted to get laid.
And the fact of the matter remains: Ship security - what exactly does that mean? Did Ree have the right to turn to Vale for advice? Was that such a situation where the ship's security was at risk? I'm sorry, but nothing so far convinced me that Ree, in the particular situation portrayed in GoN, didn't overstep the line... even the one drawn by that military code.
(Honestly, the whole discussion and what I've read of Over a Torrent Sea so far rather convinces me of the fact that everything would be better off if there were no relationships on ships. Riker turning to Troi and arguing with her whether to go down to the planet "because the baby could be born at any moment" in front of all the others in the briefing... That was just the tip of the iceberg. Hello?!? As an officer on Titan, I'd begin to wonder what comes first for my captain - his ship/mission or his family. This is a discussion that should be private and not held in front of the crew.
This really threatens to turn into a major space soap opera, concentrating on who's sleeping with whom etc.. I don't watch such programmes on TV, I don't read such novels, so I'm not exactly happy reading about the different love affairs of Lavena, Ra-Havreii, Pazlar and where they have sex and what it feels like in the different environments etc. in Titan. And I thought Trip and T'Pol behaved like adolescents... And now, somebody should please explain to me why in these matters there apparently are no rules in military-like Starfleet.
It's unfortunate that so much of the first 100 pages of OatS is spent on who/where/when because the mission setup is a really exciting one.
Mind you, my criticism isn't aimed at CLB or OatS in particular but at Titan in general because these were issues that bothered me from the beginning of the series. I only name Titan because I'm not familiar enough with TNG-relaunch or the other modern series to make the same claim.)
For what it's worth: I'm not so much criticizing the fact that there *are* rules, but rather the fact that those rules are very unevenly, or rather arbitrarily placed.
I'd like to exclude TOS from the whole discussion, honestly, because back then there were no civilians on board, no counselors etc. And frankly, I'd have liked to see the discussion between Kirk and McCoy every time Kirk wanted to get laid.
And the fact of the matter remains: Ship security - what exactly does that mean? Did Ree have the right to turn to Vale for advice? Was that such a situation where the ship's security was at risk? I'm sorry, but nothing so far convinced me that Ree, in the particular situation portrayed in GoN, didn't overstep the line... even the one drawn by that military code.
(Honestly, the whole discussion and what I've read of Over a Torrent Sea so far rather convinces me of the fact that everything would be better off if there were no relationships on ships. Riker turning to Troi and arguing with her whether to go down to the planet "because the baby could be born at any moment" in front of all the others in the briefing... That was just the tip of the iceberg. Hello?!? As an officer on Titan, I'd begin to wonder what comes first for my captain - his ship/mission or his family. This is a discussion that should be private and not held in front of the crew.
This really threatens to turn into a major space soap opera, concentrating on who's sleeping with whom etc.. I don't watch such programmes on TV, I don't read such novels, so I'm not exactly happy reading about the different love affairs of Lavena, Ra-Havreii, Pazlar and where they have sex and what it feels like in the different environments etc. in Titan. And I thought Trip and T'Pol behaved like adolescents... And now, somebody should please explain to me why in these matters there apparently are no rules in military-like Starfleet.
It's unfortunate that so much of the first 100 pages of OatS is spent on who/where/when because the mission setup is a really exciting one.
Mind you, my criticism isn't aimed at CLB or OatS in particular but at Titan in general because these were issues that bothered me from the beginning of the series. I only name Titan because I'm not familiar enough with TNG-relaunch or the other modern series to make the same claim.)
For what it's worth: I'm not so much criticizing the fact that there *are* rules, but rather the fact that those rules are very unevenly, or rather arbitrarily placed.
I read that as Ree pointing out a serious health problem and wanting to resolve it as quickly as possible. He was alarmed enough to wake her up in the middle of the night.
I blame the technological milieu's biases against genetic engineering. The Eugenics War was centuries ago, people, and the Klingons were incompetent genetic engineers!
Seriously, there must be a human civilization out there, independent of the Federation, that uses genetic engineering and is actually quite sane.
In TNG's The Masterpiece Society, the Enterprise encountered a genetically engineered human society that are sane enough, but the colony had other problems.
Picard said this about them...
Sure, but they were just taking it to the opposite extreme of exceptional inhibition, planning everything in minute detail and being positively xenophobic in their isolationism. Why not a culture of humans who make use of genetic engineering and who are still people, more capable than the human norm but otherwise as functional as any number of species more capable than baseline humans?
Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea
How?
I wouldn't know how to go about telling a woman that, not only was she incapable of bearing a child and that her current pregnancy was bound for tragedy, but that he reproductive system was in such poor shape that she needed to remove it, as soon as possible. I'm asking this non-ironically and non-sarcastically--what strategy would a doctor use to broach this topic?
How?
I wouldn't know how to go about telling a woman that, not only was she incapable of bearing a child and that her current pregnancy was bound for tragedy, but that he reproductive system was in such poor shape that she needed to remove it, as soon as possible. I'm asking this non-ironically and non-sarcastically--what strategy would a doctor use to broach this topic?
I'm still waiting for Our Heroes (tm) to discover a truly diverse, reasonably un-technophobic and imaginative civilisation to take the existing ST universe on a rollarcoaster ride.
And the best part is it barely requires any shooting to keep things interesting. No doubt this will come as a great relief after the Destiny trilogy.
Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea
I grant you that there *might* have been damage to the uterus itself - but that wasn't what Ree talked about. Ree talked about the damage to the ova, a damage that prevents Deanna from ever conceiving a healthy child. And conception usually takes place before the uterus even comes into play.
The only things we have to go from are the radiation damage to the ova, and possible (not even certain!) oncological threats. That's it.
I already mentioned how above: Sit down with the patient, take time, give her time, present alternatives etc.
This is not about sugarcoating the truth - but getting where the patient is coming from.
I already mentioned the way my father was told he had cancer: The doctor came in, told him he had cancer - my father just sat there, not really reacting - and that there was nothing that could be done. Then he left, not even asking whether there are questions. Instead he should have sat down, explained the situation, taken the time (I mean he was essentially delivering a death sentence) - and presented options such as palliative chemo therapy, pain therapy. The result was that my father suffered for 3 months the worst pains imaginable, went to some obscure doctors who at least offered some hope... and he died in a way I wouldn't wish on anyone.
That's the difference I'm talking about.
I grant you that there *might* have been damage to the uterus itself - but that wasn't what Ree talked about. Ree talked about the damage to the ova, a damage that prevents Deanna from ever conceiving a healthy child. And conception usually takes place before the uterus even comes into play.
But that's exactly what we're talking about here - I'd have liked the reasons for Ree's suggestion "on screen" so to speak. I'm not the one responsible to make sense of a character's actions, I'd say that's the writers' job.
The only things we have to go from are the radiation damage to the ova, and possible (not even certain!) oncological threats. That's it.
I already mentioned how above: Sit down with the patient, take time, give her time, present alternatives etc.
This is not about sugarcoating the truth - but getting where the patient is coming from.
I already mentioned the way my father was told he had cancer: The doctor came in, told him he had cancer - my father just sat there, not really reacting - and that there was nothing that could be done. Then he left, not even asking whether there are questions. Instead he should have sat down, explained the situation, taken the time (I mean he was essentially delivering a death sentence) - and presented options such as palliative chemo therapy, pain therapy. The result was that my father suffered for 3 months the worst pains imaginable, went to some obscure doctors who at least offered some hope... and he died in a way I wouldn't wish on anyone.
That's the difference I'm talking about.
I don`t think it was spelled out in the episode that this rule was meant for non-Federation species or newly discovered ones. But it makes sense that way and I assume this was the case. Nevertheless…
Do you really think Dax went to Sisko and Bashir, asking them for permission if she can have a relationship including intercourse with Worf? Or that Shelby went to maybe Picard because he sponsored him? Or whoever else classified as her captain and CMO at that time if she can have such a relationship with Calhoun.
We are talking about adult officers here who are supposed to be professionals. The captain is not their parent. And captains should ask an Admiral – and what do Admirals do in such a case? It should not be the task of a higher ranking officer to police the private lives of their subordinates unless it affects their ability to do their jobs.
Asking the CMO makes more sense but only in the sense that there might be a small chance that even two different species can catch something dangerous by exchanging bodily fluids. Well, tell men to use condoms and I can imagine that there are other precautions that can be taken especially in the medically advanced Star Trek universe.
This is way over the top.
I think this is being treated like the Prime Directive in many cases. Nobody will sue you if there is no problem. But if there is, be prepared to be hit very hard with the regulations book.
Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea
To a certain extent I agree with you - but not to the extent of the first 100 pages of OatS. I really don't want to read every other scene of Ra-Havreii and Pazlar, or past experiences with Lavena, or Riker in practically every scene he's in wishing he could spend time with Troi. Don't misunderstand me - of course, these are important issues, but the balance is a bit off IMO. If it's mentioned once that Riker regrets having to leave his wife etc, that's fine, even understandable... but not every time that character appears on the scene - and certainly not in a public venue such as that briefing.
Frankly, I'm happy this is sort of a fast-forward pregnancy because I'd definitely not want to read about Riker's issues for more than one book. (Not that they'll disappear once she's born, they'll just transform into other parenting issues. *g*)
I know you adore NF - but I think that über-focus on the interpersonal relationships on Excalibur, and especially later on after Restoration were what drove me away from NF. And somehow I fear seeing that transfered to other Trek series, especially the focus on physical relationships. I miss friendship, the only one not pursuing any physical relationship is Keru right now - and now guess, why I like that character so much. Because he (and Tuvok) is shown sharing friendships, offering an ear to others' problems, he's simply slowly coming out of his self-imposed shell. His interaction with other characters is more diverse, and not just focused on one thing - and I think, even if he starts dating again, he'll not lose that diversity.
Of course, I realize that these characters are different, but I just can't stand characters who have a single-minded ambition - and that's to get laid as often as possible. First impressions are very hard to make up for - and my first impression of Ra-Havreii was as bad as they can get. And so far, nothing has come up to make me rethink my opinion of this character (- or Lavena's or Pazlar's). But then I still have 200 pages to go.
To a certain extent I agree with you - but not to the extent of the first 100 pages of OatS. I really don't want to read every other scene of Ra-Havreii and Pazlar, or past experiences with Lavena, or Riker in practically every scene he's in wishing he could spend time with Troi. Don't misunderstand me - of course, these are important issues, but the balance is a bit off IMO. If it's mentioned once that Riker regrets having to leave his wife etc, that's fine, even understandable... but not every time that character appears on the scene - and certainly not in a public venue such as that briefing.
Frankly, I'm happy this is sort of a fast-forward pregnancy because I'd definitely not want to read about Riker's issues for more than one book. (Not that they'll disappear once she's born, they'll just transform into other parenting issues. *g*)
I know you adore NF - but I think that über-focus on the interpersonal relationships on Excalibur, and especially later on after Restoration were what drove me away from NF. And somehow I fear seeing that transfered to other Trek series, especially the focus on physical relationships. I miss friendship, the only one not pursuing any physical relationship is Keru right now - and now guess, why I like that character so much. Because he (and Tuvok) is shown sharing friendships, offering an ear to others' problems, he's simply slowly coming out of his self-imposed shell. His interaction with other characters is more diverse, and not just focused on one thing - and I think, even if he starts dating again, he'll not lose that diversity.
Of course, I realize that these characters are different, but I just can't stand characters who have a single-minded ambition - and that's to get laid as often as possible. First impressions are very hard to make up for - and my first impression of Ra-Havreii was as bad as they can get. And so far, nothing has come up to make me rethink my opinion of this character (- or Lavena's or Pazlar's). But then I still have 200 pages to go.
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