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Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming soon?

Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

Zachary Smith said:
What does a magnetic field of that intensity do to a living body in the vicinity of it?

Well, 16T doesn't seem to hurt a frog

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_levitation

http://www.hfml.ru.nl/pics/Movies/frog.mpg

NOTE: The frog example and video DOES NOT show the gravity effect measured in the Tajmar and Canterbury experiments. The frog example demonstrates how a strong magnetic field can levitate dipole molecules like water, which a frog (and you and me) is mostly made from. I cited this as an example of the effect of high strength magnetic fields on living tissue.

Also, from
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=4385&st=1935

"djolds1 Posted: Feb 7 2008, 03:45 PM Quote

QUOTE (hdeasy @ Feb 7 2008, 11:56 AM)

So for the Droscher Hauser extension of Tajmar to Fermions, you only need a coil 1/2 m in diameter and a surface area of 4 square meters. Compare that to Tajmar's patent where it's assumed that bosons continue to be used (supercooled) and you need a disk of 200m diameter! That may be technically feasible, but just about. Hellishly difficult. I think that the above setup would be more feasible - since Fermions are more practical for higher mass systems.


The Droscher/Hauser refinement of EHT based on Tajmar concerns Boson coupling, not fermion coupling. Fermion coupling was the mechanism studied until mid-2006, which required the Godawfully high magnetic field intensities. Boson coupling allows for the far more attainable revised design. "



So, 30T magnetic fields may not be required to generate useful gravitophoton gravity-like fields. Hopefully something closer to the frog-friendly 16T or lower ;)

A new paper due in a month or two from Droscher-Hauser may propose a configuration requiring the lower field strength, per the quote above.

The exciting part is, this is such a BIG DEAL, that international competition (scientific, political, commercial), should greatly accelerate the development of field drives, pending the outcome of further experiments moving forward. It is my belief that the race for the first working field drive will be like the Manhattan Project, or the 1960's moon race.

Also note that Tajmar has filed a patent for a micro g-field generator. The next bogey is purportedly a milli-g-field generator, then a full 1g , I would guess...

As a fun aside, I recall finding references last year that stated gravitophotons may be visible to the human eye (certain wavelengths, at least). Might explain some of the unusual "lights" people have seen in the sky over the ages ;).
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

I was about to enter my 2025-field-drive-to-the-moon prediction, but someone beat me to it...

http://www.longbets.org/92

However, his prediction invokes a taboo ("antigravity") and the detailed description sounds like the fringe/voodoo science stuff that makes so many science people skeptical of the Tajmar and Canterbury results, which are different.
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

*Crosses Fingers* Please be true, please be true!
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

Meredith said:
*Crosses Fingers* Please be true, please be true!

Yes, these developments *are* quite unbelievable, almost dreamlike.

The impact of the first measured artificial g-field is so enormous, to both applied engineering and new physics theory development, that I kept doubting the reports, too. I kept looking for signs of a hoax, or flawed experimental methodology.

At this point, it's not a hoax, and hopefully no experimental error is uncovered.

To further support the legitimacy, I mentioned this development to a *very* bright nephew, a physics major at Notre Dame (Indiana, US).

He said that the subject was covered in class Fall 2007 by his professor, who discussed the relationship of the Tajmar/NZ g-field outcomes to the Cooper pairs of electrons formed in superconductors, and the fermion/boson properties related to the behavior of Cooper pairs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconductor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper_pairs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_particles

http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/cms/?pid=1000345



So, if respected professors are talking about it in current, top tier physics classes, the prospects are looking better and better ;)

Let's see- ESA, AIAA, Notre Dame... :)

...another prediction: all funding for String theory research will dry up over the next 18 months, as funds are redirected towards building/confirming the theoretical framework describing the fundamental mechanisms responsible for the measured g-fields :D
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

A free dialogue is needed whether the claims are true or not.
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

the interesting thing about FTL propulsion is that nobody really knows how close we actually are since it is likely to upset some things - at which point every physicist who has been saying for years that FTL propulsion was wishful thinking will then reveal that he/she knew all along that there was some way that it could've been done.
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

zenophite said:
the interesting thing about FTL propulsion is that nobody really knows how close we actually are since it is likely to upset some things - at which point every physicist who has been saying for years that FTL propulsion was wishful thinking will then reveal that he/she knew all along that there was some way that it could've been done.

Good point. It has been said that "practice leads consensus by about 10 years". This refers to the "consensus" of the formal sciences Establishment.

This is why you see so much trepidation, "if's", "could be's", and the like- credentialed, reputable, respected researchers, scientists and PhD's want to be *very* cautious and skeptical- as well they should. No one wants "irrational exhuberance" to leave egg on their face if some experimental anomaly is found to have an explanation in current, established theory. Reputations could be ruined, with livelihoods (unless you're tenured ;) ) and funding on the line.

Heck, I'm going to feel like a fool for starting this thread if the Tajmar/NZ g-fields turn out to be something else.

It's also important to recognize the distinctions among the Tajmar/Canterbury g-field discoveries, using a g-field for sublight propulsion, and the exotic Heim FTL gravitophoton theory.

If the Tajmar/Canterbury results are bonafide g-fields not resulting from Einstienian frame dragging, then we probably have a whole new area of physics to develop and explore.

Whether this means Heim was right or not is unknown. But the strength of the Tajmar/NZ g-fields simply does not agree with established general/special relativity theory, so no one knows what's going on yet.

This leaves *unestablished* ideas :D.

...that would be like expecting a lowly patent clerk to develop a new model of spacetime ;)...

If this leads to only *sublight* field proplusion, it's a BIG win for the human race. If FTL field propulsion takes another 10, 50, or 100 years, or maybe never, so be it (hopefully sooner).
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

If someone is in the area, you may want to see and talk to Dr. Tajmar in person- he will be presenting at Stanford today:

http://events.stanford.edu/jse/jsp/search.jsp?q=departments

http://events3.stanford.edu/events/129/12900/index.shtml

"LISA Thrusters and the Search for Frame Dragging at Low Temperatures at ARC

Dr. Martin Tajmar, MSS

Head of Space Propulsion & Advanced Concepts

Austrian Research Centers GmbH - ARC

The Space Propulsion & Advanced Concepts department at the Austrian Research Centers works on the development of enabling technologies for future spacecraft and the transfer towards terrestrial technologies. This talk will present two highlights that focus with the detection of weak gravitational phenomena. Under contract with ESA, we are presently developing a field emission thruster (FEEP) for the LISA Pathfinder satellite that enables ultraprecise attitude control, which shall demonstrate the technology for gravitational wave detection for the LISA spacecraft. Our second activity is looking for frame-dragging-like signals from spinning matter at low temperatures. It was recently proposed that a large frame-dragging field could be responsible for a reported anomaly of the Cooper-pair mass found in Niobium superconductors. In 2003, a test program was initiated to investigate this conjecture using sensitive accelerometers and fiber optic gyroscopes in the close vicinity of fast spinning superconducting rings. Recently obtained high-precision data show that the angular velocity and acceleration applied to the superconductor can indeed be seen on the sensors. Our measurements and analysis suggest that the signal can not be explained by mechanical influence or by carefully monitored magnetic fields surrounding the sensors.

Dr. Tajmar is a research scientist and project manager in the Space Propulsion group at ARC Seibersdorf research, Austria's largest research institution.


Date and Time:
Wednesday, February 20, 2008. 4:00 PM.

Approximate duration of 1.5 hour(s).

Location:
Physics and Astrophysics Building, Conference Rooms 102/103

Audience:
Faculty/Staff
*General Public
Students

Category:
Lectures/Readings

Sponsor:
HEPL Seminars
Contact:
650-724-7667
nchristiansen@stanford.edu

Admission:
Free and open to the public"

...a golden opportunity for "A free dialogue..." :D

Dr. Tajmar appears to be "making the rounds" of academia. This is part of the vetting/peer review process.

Tajmar's credentials:

http://www.ilsb.tuwien.ac.at/~tajmar/

Recent abstracts:
http://www.congrex.nl/07C20/program.asp

Might be fun to tell your kids/grandkids you shook the hand of the discoverer of the first measured (warp) field ;)

Help out your fellow Trekkers and video record it and post it to Youtube ;)

Tally: ESA, AIAA, Notre Dame, Stanford...
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

If FTL is possible it will probably capture the imagination of the public causing a huge rise in spending for space programs. I could travel in space by the time I'm 60. Ah to be young and have your future ahead of you.
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

Well, if there's any validity to Heim's gravitophoton theory, you'd think there would be some observable evidence in the behavior or effects of magnetars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetar

which can have magnetic fields on the order of 10 GigaTeslas!

Since magnetars also rotate several times per second, you'd think there would be some manifestation of a rotating superconductor-like effect.
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

rgb1701 said:
Well, if there's any validity to Heim's gravitophoton theory, you'd think there would be some observable evidence in the behavior or effects of magnetars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetar

which can have magnetic fields on the order of 10 GigaTeslas!

Since magnetars also rotate several times per second, you'd think there would be some manifestation of a rotating superconductor-like effect.

If it is one thing we scrappy humans are good at it is taking the laws of physics and bending them to our will to do our bidding, think of all the things we build that don't rely on phenomenon found in nature, though are inspired by it like semi conductors and plastics.
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

If FTL is possible it will probably capture the imagination of the public causing a huge rise in spending for space programs. I could travel in space by the time I'm 60. Ah to be young and have your future ahead of you.

There's no reason to think medical advancements won't enable you to live for example up to 200.
I think the longest recorded human life span recorded is about 120.
But let's lower that to 100 just to be safe ...
If medical advancements enable us to let's say double the lifespan within the next several decades, then you will yet again 'have your future ahead of you'. :-)
I intend to live past that btw ... unless of course the idiot leaders of the human race decide to obliterate each other along with the rest of us before that.
 
First off, my head just exploded twice while trying to follow that.

But as a practical matter just how much energy do you need to produce the bubble thingy?

If you need the energy of the entire sun, I don't think the Hein Warp Drive is going to be a practical means of transportation anytime soon. First we need to produce the energy, then we need to contain it so it doesn't make the ship blow up the first time you light the engines up.

Also, how the heck do you steer faster than light?

I don't think you could -- you take in light to see, so you could only see the asteroid after you've already hit it. And you couldn't react fast enough even if you could see it -- I forget how many milliseconds it takes for info to travel to the brain from your eyes, but between that and signaling your muscles, I think we're talking at least a 1/4 second.

Well, here's hoping that the first HWD ship (and it will probably be called Enterprise) has one hell of a fast computer.
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

There's no reason to think medical advancements won't enable you to live for example up to 200.
I think the longest recorded human life span recorded is about 120.
But let's lower that to 100 just to be safe ...
If medical advancements enable us to let's say double the lifespan within the next several decades, then you will yet again 'have your future ahead of you'. :-)
I intend to live past that btw ... unless of course the idiot leaders of the human race decide to obliterate each other along with the rest of us before that.


Well you can live up to 100+ if you eat about 60-80+ of your calories every day. But I think there is a limit to the human. A limit where it isn't possible to keep your body the way it is supposed to be. Maybe we will live longer if we get cybernetic implants.
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

Well you can live up to 100+ if you eat about 60-80+ of your calories every day. But I think there is a limit to the human. A limit where it isn't possible to keep your body the way it is supposed to be. Maybe we will live longer if we get cybernetic implants.

One way being discussed is to replace each cell one at a time as it dies with a tiny robotic cell that mimics the function of the dead cell it replaces, done slowly enough you wouldn't know when you stopped having cell from when you turned into nanites.
 
Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

Excellent summary and history re: Tajmar, Heim, their results and theories, and how they may be connected:

From
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=4385&st=1950

djolds1
Posted: Feb 24 2008, 08:10 AM​



OK... Where to start.

At the beginning, as always.

To start off, Heim Theory (currently EHT, Extended Heim Theory) must be considered somewhat left field. It was Burkhard Heim's private baby for several decades, since at least the '50s, making rare German language forays into academic presentation and release. As far as I know, there is only Heim's 1977 monograph and a 1976 presentation at MBB (now part of EADS) that are part of Heim's official record.

Why did Heim stay away from conventional academia? He lost his arms and most of his vision during a lab accident during WW2; ended up as a recluse. I've seen some references claiming that some of the premier minds of the day were impressed with his intellect and concepts, but don't have the cites.
sad.gif


However, Heim was introduced to one Walter Droscher c.1980. At some point thereafter, the two begain working on Heim's ideas together. Droscher reworked Heim's original 6-dimensional model into an 8D model, which purportedly is able to account for all known forces and interactions, as well as predicting two additional forces. Droscher, in cooperation with Jochem Hauser, have been refining and publishing the Extended Theory via AIAA publications since at least 2002.

AIAA is the Professional Association of American Aerospace Engineers, so their work is not without skilled review, and one of their Heim papers did win the AIAA 2004 paper of the year award. This is not however review by the creme of the theoretical physics community.

Structurally, EHT is similar to Loop Quantum Gravity, working with minimal quanta of area instead of &*%$ing "strings." It predicts two additional forces, and claims the ability to predict the masses of fundamental particles from pure theory.

The two additional forces are variant gravitational forces, much weaker than normal gravity. "Quintessence" is a repulsive gravitational force that seems to match dark energy VERY closely. However, the timeline indicates that Heim predicted this force by the mid '60s at latest, at least 5 years before universal expansion was observed. The second gravity-cousin is the gravito-photon force. EHT provides mathematical models that allow for the transformation of photons into attractive and/or repulsive gravitational particles, gravitophotons. It is the gravitophoton that is purported to allow the manipulation of gravity, and which provides the direct link to Tajmar's work.

There is also the particle mass claim. This claim is disputed, as the particle predictions appear to predict several particles that have already been ruled out by accelerator experimentation. However, this area of the theory appears to be among the least well developed, so the criticism may be premature. It is possible that the additional particles are excited states of normal particles, but that is and remains speculation.

Heim's original notes are quite disorganized and all in German, using a notation and terminology he invented on his own. The attempt to clean them up is ongoing, and is apparently one of the reasons the particle mass part of the mathematics is so weak at present. Also, Heim's work was incomplete, and a selector rule for this part of the theory remains unfinished.

John Reed, a contributor on this board, presented a strong criticism of this aspect of EHT some time ago. He claimed to have found that the particle mass values were inadvertently pre-inserted into the theory back in the '70s. However, after careful re-review, Mr. Reed withdrew this critique, stating that the '70s era mathematics were not inserted into the newer work as he had previously thought. Per Mr. Reed's findings reported on this board, the particle mass predictions range from tolerable to good agreement with those verified by accelerator.

Droscher's & Hauser's papers mostly concern a possible method of harnessing the gravitophoton effect to productive end. Essentially, a reactionless propulsion system. In nature this is merely a variant on Tajmar's reported findings, with the artificial gravitational field directed along a different vector.

Until 2006, they were also reporting on a more radical claim, that the EHT physics potentially allow for FTL travel. However, at that time they thought that the technical requirements for even the STL (Slower Than Light) reactionless method would require truly gargantuan magnetic field strengths. 20+ Tesla for the most basic STL experiment, 80+ for the FTL. Since even the most minuscule laboratory verification would come nowhere near to real world application, the more extreme claims to gin up interest were probably justified.

After Tajmar's announcement in 2006 however, Droscher & Hauser went back and took another look. They found that EHT gave good predictive agreement with the results Tajmar had reported. The Tajmar experiment and the proposed STL lab bench demonstrator were moderately similar, albeit that the gravitational fields produced were directed along different vectors. And each set of revised results from Tajmar is reported to have brought Tajmar's observed results and the EHT predictions into closer and closer agreement.

Tajmar's method also suggested a new method for producing gravitophotons with technical requirements orders of magnitude below that previously assumed. Since then, FTL claims have disappeared and papers have become far more conservative. The wise move if your 'outside the theoretical mainstream' theory now stands a decent chance of validation. An initial failure based on tremendous claims would be a fast way to be written off as Pons-Fleischman cranks. They are now in baby-steps mode.

Their work has been supported by the Institut fur Grenzgebiete Wissenschaft, which according to an Austrian friend of mine is the Austrian version of NACA, the immediate ancestor of NASA. As with the AIAA, this is an indirect indicator of skilled but not high-prestige scientific review.

Per private communication w/Hauser, Tajmar has many more results than those he has released. The released results being those best verified to the most anal retentive degree. Per public releases, Hauser and Tajmar have been in close contact for at least the last year.

EHT's ability to predict the Tajmar results to good agreement is a suggestive and encouraging critique of the potential correctness of EHT, but far from validation. Likewise, the continued ability to predict particle masses from pure theory, even if possibly flawed in part, is suggestive and encouraging, but not conclusive.

A comprehensive review paper was due out late last year, but has yet to be released. I for one am quite happy with and respectful of the highly conservative go-slow approach Droscher and Hauser are taking.

Duane J. Oldsen

Oh, waitaminute...

I gave an historical overview, not a description of the Theory. Sorry.

EHT merges relativity and quantum theory, with an emphasis toward the relativity/ geometry side of the equation. Unlike GR, reality is not envisioned as a geometric construct through which "real" matter moves. All of existence is geometry, or spacetime. In the Heim concept, The size of the basic quanta of area (planck length squared, called "Metrons" by Heim) has varied over time. At one point they became small enough that matter essentially "popped" into existence. A "big burp" throughout the universe, not a "big bang" from a central singularity. As in LQG, matter, energy, time, all are composed of fundamental quanta that can be designated in units of length.

EHT is composed of eight dimensions, the four of human experience, and an additional four that can be thought of as "bookkeeping" dimensions. Burkhard Heim had initially limited this to 6D, and EHT provides for an absolute maximum of 12D, but according to Droscher & Hauser, 8D is all that is necessary to describe the unification of GR and QM. These eight dimensions are organized into four subspaces, R^3, T^1, S^2, and I^2. R^3 is "real" physical space, T^1 is time, S^2 are "organization coordinates," and I^2 is "information coordinates." It is the 'mixing' of subspace values that results in "real" particles, interactions, and forces.

This is an excellent overview:

http://tinyurl.com/2mtb34

An English-language PDF of one of their 2006 papers. Covers the older concepts while just touching on Tajmar.

S^2 is composed of D5 and D6. D5 is described as the entelechial coordinate, "a measure of the quality of time varying organizational structure (inverse or dual to entropy)." D6 is "the aeonic dimension... that is interpreted as a steering coordinate toward a dynamically stable state."

I^2 denotes "information coordinates:" "Entropy is directly connected to probability, which in turn is related to information. Therefore, two additional coordinates... are needed, which are complementary to the organizational coordinates, to reflect this behavior of Nature, termed information coordinates that are describing information waves."

The "mixing rules" are called "hermetry forms," another of Heim's personal neologisms combining geometry and hermeneutics. Either S^2 or I^2 must be present in a form for it to have any meaning. The additional dimensions direct action in "real space" by a double transformation. Information on the state of "real space" is transferred to the "bookkeeping dimensions" where mathematical processes are executed to determine what will happen in the next instant. This information is then transmitted back to "real space." I don't specifically recall how deterministic this is, but IIRC uncertainty is preserved.

Per memory, the FTL mechanism is purported to work as follows. A variant of the reactionless STL unit is used to create repulsive gravitophotons. These repulsive gravitophotons interact with the mass of the engine or vessel to lower its gravitational constant. This is forbidden in the normal physical universe, but the effect is real, and therefore a paradox exists. The paradox is resolved by "kicking" the mechanism into a "parallel space" (read: hyperspace) where the local speed of light (c' ; c-prime) is nc, with n= an integer. Thus c' can = 2c, 3c, 4c... etc, up to 1E66c. No fractional values however, due to quantization. If you were traveling at say 0.0001c when you turned on the hyperdrive, you're now traveling at 0.0001c'. No acceleration is felt, as you haven't "accelerated" per se. However, as "distance" in hyperspace vs realspace maps as 1:1, you're essentially traveling "n" times faster.

And since the STL mode allows constant acceleration, you can accelerate to a fair percentage of c relatively quickly and then turn on the hyperdrive. Values mentioned in the early papers were n=4000 and n=10,000. Values for the current "reference" STL engine (NOT the proposed lab bench unit) are 871 KiloNewtons thrust, 3150kg engine mass (not including power systems, structure, etc.).

Duane

Oh - three details I thought I'd included but apparently skipped.

1) Matter is not "solid," not "substance" in the metaphysical meaning. It is geometry, math, spacetime. A proton is a godawfully complex geometric construct, 1E40 fundamental planck surfaces, IIRC. The mathematical rules of the S^2 and I^2 subspaces control how that matter "evolves," as it were. This actually agrees well with various forms of spontaneous order observed in the physical universe, such as the logarithmic spiral. The spiral and various related forms of spontaneous order seem to pop out of nowhere. The mathematical direction of the bookkeeping dimensions addresses this nicely.

2) Quarks do not exist. The geometry of fundamental particles creates what you can think of as "mathematical resonances" within the particles. These are what we think of as quarks, but they are nothing more than mathematical ghosts. IOW there's no such thing as a naked quark.

3) It is possible that minute quantities of matter trapped in the 1E66 hyperspaces account for dark matter, just at the Quintessence gravitational force accounts for dark energy. In EHT, gravity switches from attractive to repulsive at a distance of 46 Megaparsecs.

Duane
 
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