Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming soon?

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by rgb1701, Feb 8, 2008.

  1. rgb1701

    rgb1701 Captain Captain

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    It looks like the spinning superconductor/gravity experiments could be the Real Deal- independant confirmation of "The Signal" (g-field measured by accelerometers).

    Yes trekkers, it looks like the Holy Grail could be achieved- the link between electromagnetism and gravity.

    From
    http://www.aiaa.org/index.cfm
    http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/Archives.cfm?ArchiveIssueid=95

    ]http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/images/articleimages/pdf/Propulsion%20and%20Energy1.pdf]

    See page 61 (page numbering does not match PDF file number).

    (citation)
    Field propulsion

    Experiments performed at ARC Seibersdorf Research in Austria indicate that a gravitational like field of 10^-4 g is induced near a niobium superconducting ring when the ring’s rotation rate changes (http://arxiv.org/pdf/0707.3806).
    If genuine, this would be the first-ever gravitational-like field induced by controllable means.

    The field is circular and is located inside the ring. Its direction and magnitude oppose the
    ring’s angular acceleration. Since the field is transient and circular, it is not immediately applicable
    as a propulsion effect, but such a physics discovery would dramatically expand new options for the future.

    A second set of experiments conducted at the University of Canterbury, New Zealand, used the world’s most accurate ring laser gyro to search for the noted effects, but using a rotating superconducting lead mass and a different orientation of their laser gyro than the ARC laser gyro configuration (http://www2.phys.canterbury.ac.nz/~physrin/papers/SuperFrameDragging2007.pdf).

    Their data show a possible gravitational-like field effect on the ring laser gyro from the rotation of the lead
    mass. These data and the ARC experiments have enough similarities to suggest corroborating evidence,
    yet are different enough that no firm conclusions should yet be reached.
    (end citation)

    More labs are purported to be scrambling to replicate the result.

    IMO, the measurement of the g-signal could go down as one of the most signicant events in history.
     
  2. rgb1701

    rgb1701 Captain Captain

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    So, could Tajmar = Cochrane ;)
     
  3. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Premium Member

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    I think we're still a ways from cracking FTL.
     
  4. rgb1701

    rgb1701 Captain Captain

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    Maybe not...

    http://www.hpcc-space.de/publications/documents/aiaa2004-3700-a4.pdf

    http://photonswarm.com/futurology/?article=14

    "Gravitophoton Field Propulsion

    In the 2004 paper, titled Guidelines for a Space Propulsion Device Based on Heim's Quantum Theory1, Droscher outlines a 2-stage propulsion system based on the manipulation of a spacecraft's gravitational potential using gravitophoton interactions:

    1. Acceleration phase

    The propulsion system uses a rotating torus to generate a strong magnetic field in the region of 30T. According to Heim's quantum gravity theory, such a field causes a conversion process of photons into gravitophoton pairs. This process causes a net "Heim-Lorentz" force, described by the paper as a gravitational force capable of propelling a spacecraft. The paper notes that "the current understanding is that the kinetic energy of the spacecraft is provided from the vacuum and not from the magnetic field that is needed only to maintain the conversion process. The role of the magnetic field seems to be that of a catalyzer."

    2. Parallel Space Transition

    The first phase of the propulsion system is certainly exotic, but is nothing compared to the second. In this phase, the spacecraft undergoes a transition into what the paper terms "parallel space".

    Reduction of the gravitational potential of the spacecraft is the result of interaction of positive gravitophotons with gravitons and their conversion into repulsive vacuum particles, or quintessence particles. Since the gravitational potential of the craft is reduced, this requires either a decrease in its mass or a change in the fundamental gravitational constant, G. The paper concludes that neither of these conditions are tenable in normal space-time, and that a transition into a parallel universe or multiverse - termed parallel space by the paper - is the consequence of this reduction.

    While exotic, the concept of parallel universes are not unheard of in other theories of physics (c.f. 2), and Heim Theory does in fact allow their existence. This transition allows effective superluminal velocities in normal space, giving travel times to Mars in 2.5 hours and Procyon, 3.5 pc distant, in just 80 days."

    also

    http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1775448

    If the Tajmar/NZ results are manifestations of gravitophotons, perhaps Heim theory might guide us to the Gravitophoton Field drive described above and in the 2004 AIAA paper linked.

    In my book, the "Warp Field" is a nice substitute for "Gravitophoton Field" ;)
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    "A possible gravitational-like field effect"... "enough similarities to suggest corroborating evidence,
    yet are different enough that no firm conclusions should yet be reached."

    It's a long way from certain, so don't hold your breath.

    And if there is anything to it, it sounds like it's more likely to result in artificial gravity than warp drive.
     
  6. rgb1701

    rgb1701 Captain Captain

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    ..unless Heim theory is (mostly) right.

    Ongoing discussion and status of Tajmar's and related work
    http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=4385&st=1935
     
  7. Ronald Held

    Ronald Held Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    Quite a ways away.
     
  8. Meredith

    Meredith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    If you could create an artificial gravitation field that is really small could you use this to compress Hydrogen atoms, ie. Fusion and would it work better than magnetic confinement?


    I mean it works for the sun to use gravity to compress hydrogen.
     
  9. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Admiral Premium Member

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    An artificial gravity field implies the possibility of an anti-gravity field via the same tech. Anti-gravity implies a reduction of mass, reducing the amount of energy required to reach the speed of light, which has always been the Holy Grail of e=mc2. If true, this discovery could, quite possibly, lead to FTL travel, but they would still have to work on a way around the time-distortion problem, should it actually be proven to exist by a practical application of this new propulsion system.
     
  10. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    Gravitation is a far, far, far, far weaker force than electromagnetism -- as you can tell by the fact that a tiny handheld magnet can overcome the gravitational force of the entire planet Earth to pick up a paper clip, say. The Sun is only able to compress hydrogen gravitationally because it has such an immense amount of matter making it up. So an artificial gravity field would have to be gazillions of times stronger than natural gravity in order to be useful for fusion on a human scale, or even to give weight to a spaceship crew.


    That doesn't necessarily follow. After all, natural gravity has no inverse (except maybe dark energy, but that applies on a far larger scale). And at this point, we don't know enough about this putative effect (even if it is real) to know the mechanism behind it and whether that mechanism allows any possibility of repulsive pseudogravity.

    That doesn't follow. Accelerating closer to the speed of light does not let you accelerate past it (and E=mc^2 has little to do with it -- that's an equation about the energy released in a nuclear or matter/antimatter reaction). You're right that "antigravity" would potentially allow FTL travel, but in ways that have nothing to do with accelerating toward c. Instead, it would be in terms of the ability of antigravity to distort spacetime and sustain a wormhole or Alcubierre warp bubble.
     
  11. Meredith

    Meredith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    You mean time would flow faster inside of the ship?


    That is what Stasis pods are for!
     
  12. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Admiral Premium Member

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    ^^^ As I understand it, time would flow normally in the ship (relative to those on board it), but once they returned, they will likely find that they're several hundred years into their future, when only a few days may have passed (for them) in transit. That's an absurdly over-simplified view of the whole relativity/time distortion concept, on my part, BTW.
     
  13. rgb1701

    rgb1701 Captain Captain

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    Here is a nicely done presentation describing Heim Quantum Theory, which is a Unified Field Theory that attempts to reconcile General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. The presentation includes some of the high level math, and explains how a superluminal propulsion drive might be constructed using the new force interactions that Heim theory predicts.

    http://home.earthlink.net/~redcat/gravitophotons/gravitophotons01.html

    The presentation includes the Tajmar spinning superconductor results, implying that the measured g-field in the Tajmar experiments, and Canterbury, NZ last year, are manifestations of the gravitophoton effect predicted by Heim.

    More rotating superconductor and/or related experiments are planned for this year- we should see more results every few months or so.

    Heim's 8-dimensional spacetime model includes dimensions for entropy, stability and information flow, which strikes me as correct in a philosophical, zen-like manner ;) This implies that higher dimensions may be abstractions vs the physical or "curled up" dimensions of other concepts like string theory.

    I also find Heim's fundamental quantum of spacetime, the metron (= Plank length squared), an appropriate "pixel" that comprises all of spacetime, the fundamental building block of reality. After all, many physicists consider Planck units "God's units".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_units

    Here is the slide describing the superluminal phase of a gravitophoton field drive:

    http://home.earthlink.net/~redcat/gravitophotons/gravitophotons14.html

    The next slide gives flight times to various planets and stars.

    Treknically, "Parallel space" could easily be interpreted as "subspace", a term Heim uses often in his math model. Interestingly, Heim theory predicts that only integer multiples of light speed are possible, n x c, very much like warp factors. The "warp coil" is the spinning torus and magnetic field coils used to generate the required 30T magnetic field.

    As a correction, perhaps Heim could go down in history as the (human) inventor of the superluminal field drive.
     
  14. rgb1701

    rgb1701 Captain Captain

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  15. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Admiral Premium Member

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    ^^^ It's official. My brain just melted...
     
  16. Meredith

    Meredith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    Could a drive like the one described be tested on something like a car or plane at least and do we even have the tech to even build a "Heim Thruster".
     
  17. rgb1701

    rgb1701 Captain Captain

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    If the spinning superconductor and related tests continue to yield measurable g-fields in the coming months and years, we could very well have floating cars (i.e. wheel-less, Skywalker-like landspeeders) and wingless planes sooner than anyone expects.

    re: "Heim field coil"

    The apparatus suggested by the references I provided only requires an electric current coil to produce the required magnetic field, and a rotating torus or ring made of an insulating material (I assume this means a dielectric material).


    Other than the large 30T field strength, there is nothing in the suggested apparatus that couldn't be built now for prototype/testing purposes.

    Sandia Labs has a machine capable of producing 30T magnetic fields, BTW.

    http://www.sandia.gov/media/z290.htm
     
  18. rgb1701

    rgb1701 Captain Captain

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    More food for thought:

    http://www.hpcc-space.de/

    "02 October 2007
    Horizon of Space Propulsion

    Gravity-Like Fields for Space Propulsion in a Nutshell


    During the last 18 months substantial progress has been made in the generation of gravity-like fields.
    This concerns both experimental as well as the encompassing theoretical research.

    The experiments by M. Tajmar, first announced on ESA's webpage on 23 March 2006, have lead to a paradigm-shift whose key elements seem to be based on condensed matter phenomena.

    Recently, US aerospace industry has decided to conduct a study to explore the technical possibilities of gravity-like fields."

    "The Nutshell article gives a summary in non-mathematical form of the current experimental and theoretical state of the art in the research of novel gravity-like fields (also noted as artificial gravitational fields). These fields are of particular interest in (space) transportation, because they could serve as enabling technology for a completely different transportation principle. In addition, ground transportation might not need wheels anymore."

    "The Nutshell article aims to clarify the relationship between the experiments of the group of M. Tajmar, ARC Seibersdorf, Austria, and the recent set of experiments of R. D. Graham et al., University of Canterbury,Christchurch, New Zealand.

    It is a misconception to assume that there is a contradiction between these two sets of experiments! Their papers need to be read completely, not only the introduction!

    In both cases a gravitomagnetic field was measured, about 30 orders of magnitude higher than predicted by the Lense-Thirring effect of general relativity. Although the term super frame dragging is used in these papers, it is a misunderstanding to attribute the experimental results to the phenomenon of frame dragging! "


    "It should be noted that there is also a third experiment, namely the NASA-Stanford Gravity Probe B experiment, which deserves to be investigated. In this experiment two pairs of niobium coated superconducting rotating quartz spheres (gyros, 38mm diameter) are used. If the effects measured by Tajmar and Graham are real, a spin-spin interaction between two rotating gyros should have led to a large (compared to frame dragging) spin drift. The Nutshell article also describes theoretical (http://www.hpcc-space.de/publications ) physical models, utilized to compute the observed effects and to describe the (novel) physics behind these phenomena."


    Who wants to place a long bet that by 2020-25, the first (sublight) gravitophoton field drive prototype ship will fly from the Earth to Moon, and by 2030-35, the first (unmanned) superluminal flight is achieved? ;)

    http://www.longbets.org/
     
  19. rgb1701

    rgb1701 Captain Captain

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    ...and rightly so.

    The chart

    http://home.earthlink.net/~redcat/gravitophotons/gravitophotons15.html

    claims a speed of 10^3 c or 1000c for a 100 ly voyage.

    That's Warp Factor 10 for us TOS old skoolers ;)

    Now *that's* what I call HAULIN' THE MAIL :).

    Of course, we're a long way from there, but the fact that humans are generating a bonafide artificial g-field is a BIG DEAL, and one rung on the ladder to warp 1.
     
  20. Zachary Smith

    Zachary Smith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Time to update Trek history- (warp) field drive coming s

    What does a magnetic field of that intensity do to a living body in the vicinity of it?