The Cybermen appeared in the game that was set after The Big Bang so I'd say they're back.
Time Crack is stupid
- Thread starter EJA
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The Cybermen appeared in the game that was set after The Big Bang so I'd say they're back.
That's the thing, a lot of people are making assumptions based on facts not in evidence. People assumed because XYZ happened in The Big Bang that, therefore (for example) the whole Stolen Earth scenario never happened. Ignoring that The Waters of Mars is based on that scenario and the fact it was a fixed point in history. So therefore IT still happened. But does it mean the Loch Ness Monster didn't go walkabout in London during Terror of the Zygons? Possibly. If it wasn't a fixed point in time. But "Stolen Earth" needs to have occurred. Likewise, the Dalek/Cyberman invasion of Canary Wharf has to have happened, because without it then the whole concept of Torchwood ceases to exist as we know it, completely messing up the spin-off the BBC has put a lot of investment into and is about to return for a new season. So we know for 100% certain that those two major events have to have happened. And we know the Doctor's adventures with Jo Grant and Sarah Jane Smith still happened (or at least some of them did) otherwise Death of the Doctor would not have happened as it did.
But maybe the Doctor no longer lights the Olympic torch in 2012 in the rejigged timeframe...big whup.
But the fact is unless a character sits down and says "such and such never happened" then we have no way of knowing one way or the other.
I can understand some people's frustration over the fact the time crack and the like hasn't been explained fully. After all, we're used to having everything explained in 60 minute chunks. Doctor Who has been pushing the envelope with season-long story mysteries (Bad Wolf, anyone?), and now Moffat has gone and launched a TWO-season arc/mystery. Some people just can't handle it. That's why ongoing arc series are always a gamble - some people can tolerate storylines that run for months and years before any resolution. Some abandon the show if they don't get satisfaction after 45 minutes. C'est la vie.
Alex
"Back" is one thing. Amy was attacked by one in "The Pandorica Opens," so she knows what they are and were therefore included in the great universe reboot. Same with the Daleks. She has encountered them before, so they would be included in her rebooted universe as well.
The questions is, though, did the Cybermen and Daleks still do the things we saw them do earlier in the show? My point is that we really can't say for sure until somebody shows us one way or another.
This is a total distortion of my argument. I'm talking about the integrity of past stories. Some of us do actually care about fictional stories having an ounce of sense in them, believe it or not.
Yet is somewhat understandable, but is also misguided to differing degrees.
I am somewhat envious of you come to think of it. You have such a perfect, uncomplicated and uneventful life that you worry more about the myriad and complex jigsaw that is the continuity of Doctor Who than your own life and that plays second fiddle to it.
The crack is a bit stupid, and doesn't wholly make sense. However it's no more stupid, and at least has a touch more logic to it than "Oh everyone's suffered mass psychosis and can't remember Daleks, or giant Cyberkings etc..." I know in the past native tribespeople couldn't see ships because they just couldn't process the notion of them, so chose to ignore them, but we're talking about people in a modern society fed UFO and alien images on a daily basis. the notion that we'd somehow en masse choose to ignore Daleks/planets in the sky etc holds no water.
I'm not 100% behind the idea of the crack, but I praise Moffat for trying to make some sense of the tangled web of Who history/counter history.
I'm not 100% behind the idea of the crack, but I praise Moffat for trying to make some sense of the tangled web of Who history/counter history.
That's crap, man. You're on a BBS reading a thread called "Time Crack is stupid", get off the pedestal.
Your average person on the street tries to get between me and me watching the next new episode of Doctor who, I'll probably gut them.
that sounds really important to the real world.
"How to avoid a gutting"
The real world just thinks a bit too much of itself to survive the alternatives if you ask me.
No daleks.
Susan wouldn't have left when she did.
Vicki and Susan together fighting evil?
Too much sugar.
that sounds really important to the real world.
"How to avoid a gutting"
The real world just thinks a bit too much of itself to survive the alternatives if you ask me.
No daleks.
Susan wouldn't have left when she did.
Vicki and Susan together fighting evil?
Too much sugar.
My take on things is that, post-"The Big Bang," most of the portions of Series Five set in the "present" -- the 1996 and 2008 portions of "The Eleventh Hour," the 2010 portions of "Flesh and Stone" and "The Vampires of Venice" -- never happened. They're like the Year That Never Was from "Last of the Time Lords" -- the characters remember them, but they've been erased from history. (Except for "The Lodger," which I think now happened in a modified form, without the Time Crack appearing at the very end of it. 'Cos I like my happy endings for Craig and Sophie.)
However, I don't think this erasure extends to the portions of Series Five set at other points in history. I don't think the Time Cracks, post-"Big Bang," are still present in any of the stories set in other eras (such as "Flesh and Stone"), but I do suspect that their effects persist even without their presence, in the same way that the effects of Amy's parents' lives still persisted (i.e., Amy's continued existence, Amy's continued presence in the Pond house) even after they were erased from time. Cause-less effects.
And, for my money (since Moffat was kind enough to leave this up to individual interpretation), all the old alien invasions from the RTD era still happened, and Amy would now be able to remember the Daleks moving the Earth to the Medusa Cascade. And all of the RTD-era companions are just as we left them in "The End of Time, Part Two."
However, I don't think this erasure extends to the portions of Series Five set at other points in history. I don't think the Time Cracks, post-"Big Bang," are still present in any of the stories set in other eras (such as "Flesh and Stone"), but I do suspect that their effects persist even without their presence, in the same way that the effects of Amy's parents' lives still persisted (i.e., Amy's continued existence, Amy's continued presence in the Pond house) even after they were erased from time. Cause-less effects.
And, for my money (since Moffat was kind enough to leave this up to individual interpretation), all the old alien invasions from the RTD era still happened, and Amy would now be able to remember the Daleks moving the Earth to the Medusa Cascade. And all of the RTD-era companions are just as we left them in "The End of Time, Part Two."
This is true, the fact I am on a BBS reading this thread, but have I ever actually said anything remotely similar to what EJA does concerning his inability to enjoy Doctor Who because it just does not make sense?
Who cares? EJA has every right to post whatever he wants, provided it doesn't violate forum rules. And to my knowledge, he never has. We don't have to agree with what he says, in fact the purpose of a thread is usually to discuss and argue the content of the subject matter. But at the same time, we can not begrudge him or his right to post what he does. After all, he may have taken the time to write it, but you're taking the time to read it. It works both ways.
Mr Adventure seemed to care, I was replying to him.
You are looking for the wrong type of 'integrity' - in Doctor Who that means you tune in and he's not injecting heroin into his eyeballs or not making an argument why genocide is a good thing, not the American style restrictive continuity which means that things simply can't be tossed if the writer wants to go another way. Things in Doctor Who are always tossed overboard when the writer wants to go a different way. Moffat doesn't want to deal with "everyone knows about aliens", so he tosses it.
I just thought the "get a life" undertones weren't necessary.
And if I had meant to say get a life, I would have either said outright or linked to a youtube video. I am rather envious of EJA that he has so little to worry about in his life that he comes on here and bemoans the fact that the continuity of Who doesn't fit into what he thinks it should.
^ LOL.
OK, I've just never heard anyone word something like that without being snarky and sarcastic.
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