Thoughts about a TOS revival with AI technology

[Warped9]

Plus, the vast majority of science in the field agrees that gender is a social construct and exists on a spectrum. The people disagreeing with that are usually cherry-picking the few scientist coming to different conclusions (they are usually the ones with some “agenda”).

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. And I don’t really care for cherries.

Gender is not an imaginary and arbitrary construct. It’s an established FACT. If someone wants to play dress-up or lets-pretend thats their right, but they don’t have biological science on their side to back it up just as one doesn’t have science to verify them identifying as a cat.

But this is waay off the thread subject.

In terms of visual presentation it’s possible to recreate/continue TOS. But in terms of substance of writing, acting, directing and such I don’t think thats a certainty.

 

[Michael]

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. And I don’t really care for cherries.

Gender is not an imaginary and arbitrary construct. It’s an established FACT. If someone wants to play dress-up or lets-pretend thats their right, but they don’t have biological science on their side to back it up just as one doesn’t have science to verify them identifying as a cat.

But this is waay off the thread subject.

In terms of visual presentation it’s possible to recreate/continue TOS. But in terms of substance of writing, acting, directing and such I don’t think thats a certainty.

You are talking about sex, not gender. You know there’s more than just biological science, right? Ever heard of psychology?

It’s kind of ironic that you sought to bring up “The Outcast” as a metaphor, because it firmly seeks to warn about a society made up of people who think like you.

 

[Pauln6]

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. And I don’t really care for cherries.

Gender is not an imaginary and arbitrary construct. It’s an established FACT. If someone wants to play dress-up or lets-pretend thats their right, but they don’t have biological science on their side to back it up just as one doesn’t have science to verify them identifying as a cat.

But this is waay off the thread subject.

In terms of visual presentation it’s possible to recreate/continue TOS. But in terms of substance of writing, acting, directing and such I don’t think thats a certainty.

There is plenty of scientific study looking at why people feel the way they feel, whether that's to whom they are sexually attracted or whether their gender matches their biological sex. It's a fascinating and evolving area of biology. The odds of siblings both being gay is higher for fraternal twins than for ordinary siblings, and higher still for monozygotal twins, which suggests both a genetic/epigenetic cause in addition to the way hormone exposure affects brain development. Further, the odds of male children being gay goes up the more male chlidren you have (possibly due to the build up of anti-bodies), so the continued existence of such births may even have roots in some kind of evolutionary benefits linked to human hierarchical social structure. To claim transgenderism or non binary don't exist is a failure to understand even the basics of how the human brain develops in the womb and why any of us feel the way we feel.

I don't think it's silly for Star Trek to acknowledge advances in scientific understanding even when trying to evoke TOS. Star Trek acknowledging neuro-diversity, whether allegorically or literally, is a strength, not pandering or forced diversity. If you think your views are absolutely correct then you should have no reason to fear taking a look at this fascinating area of scientific research.

 

[1001001]

Okay, we're getting very far afield here. This stuff can be discussed in Miscellaneous.

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. And I don’t really care for cherries.

Gender is not an imaginary and arbitrary construct. It’s an established FACT. If someone wants to play dress-up or lets-pretend thats their right, but they don’t have biological science on their side to back it up just as one doesn’t have science to verify them identifying as a cat.

This is not only factually wrong, but highly offensive to our Trans members (particularly the "identify as a cat" bit). Keep that out of here.

Moving on.

 

[aridas sofia]

I think this whole tangent was about whether recreating TOS could be done because faithfully recreating a 1966 show in the 2020s might entail transforming its point of view to one that is contemporary. And to that I say, Star Trek is (or at least often attempts to be) science fiction. The Starfleet culture portrayed in TOS was crafted to make the stories approachable for 1960s viewers. But treated in a subtly different way, pretty much the same culture can be posed as an evolution of our own. There are examples in history of societies that go through a collapse and in the process of rebuilding, recapitulate some of the forms they had in previous eras. The past does not repeat itself, but it rhymes. The reasons why Earth would circle back to the retrofuture forms imagined three centuries earlier could be part of what this AI TOS was about. An AI will - presumably - churn out its imaginings as easily - and presumably cheaply - as Birds Eye churns our mixed vegetables. Such a process wouldn’t have to be broadly appealing - it wouldn’t have to relate to modern viewers. It could be as niche as the pulp SF of a century ago.

 

[TRON JA307020]

So this uses AI for the TOS cast voices, was made all the way back in 2014 and looks and sounds like a CG animated show from the late 90's.

That's cool.

 

[Pauln6]

I think the look of the technology doesn't need to be updated as much as they did in the prequel sequels although if they hadn't updated the look in TMP I wouldn't have had my favourite ship in the refit so it's fine. It frustrates me more when the canon technology is portrayed doing things seen only 100 years later, sometimes even contradicting express limitations from TOS or even TNG.

The thing the modern shows struggle with the most for me is the naval feel. Sometimes the ships have more of the feel of a high school outing than a professional space force. I don't mind so much if scientists outside the chain of command like McCoy, Romaine, Troi, and Stamets are a bit flakey but the command officers should behave like officers while on duty and save shenanigans and hugging for their downtime.

 

[aridas sofia]

The thing the modern shows struggle with the most for me is the naval feel.

This. Absolutely, this. I can only imagine this is because the realities of serving are no longer a part of the lingua franca of our culture.

 

[fireproof78]

And that Starfleet is declared time and again to not be a military service and the idea of "professional " has taken on a different tone nowadays.

 

[Warped9]

This is not only factually wrong…

No, it’s not factually wrong. Those arguing there are no such things as gender are the ones cherry picking to support their argument in the face of established science. One might not feel they belong wholly as a man or a woman, but it’s a complete fiction to assert male and female don’t actually exist.

But, indeed, moving on.

 

[Warped9]

And that Starfleet is declared time and again to not be a military service and the idea of "professional " has taken on a different tone nowadays.

This idea of Starfleet not being a military organization might have gotten started doing the 1970s and maybe blossomed on the convention circuit. But I think it got real legs during TNG even though onscreen they never actually said it.

But in TOS Starfleet is most certainly a form of military organization.

 

[Pauln6]

And that Starfleet is declared time and again to not be a military service and the idea of "professional " has taken on a different tone nowadays.

I dunno - quasi-military or not, Starfleet has a clear chain of command. They softened the naval feel in TNG but the people still behaved like they were there to do their jobs.

Perhaps when they started to bring in the concept of the main characters being 'special' and exceptional, instead of just good, well trained officers and crew, the writers allowed a level of self-entitlement or self-indulgence to creep in and sometimes even saturate a story. Trip used to give Malcom a hard time for being so buttoned up but I used think, what's he on about, Malcom is just doing the job he's employed to do, not calling in favours due to a personal relationship with his commanding officer, or arguing with his superiors in front of the crew. Kirk the Jerk in the Kelvin timeline may be the worst example.

Ships have officers and crew. The officers are trained to be officers and so should behave like officers. Being smart and good at your job isn't what makes an officer, that's what makes a petty officer. TOS Scotty is a good engineer and a great officer. Kelvin Scotty is a great engineer and a terrible officer. Just look at the way he talks to Keenser while on duty. I think that's where the show starts to look like a show instead of a possible future.

Even the fan created Phase II and Star Trek Continues couldn't quite recapture the spirit of TOS, usually feeling like they had more of a TNG vibe to them. I'm not quite sure what made TOS so compelling and dynamic, but I think it is more likely to be recaptured in animation rather live action or AI digital recreation.

 

[fireproof78]

I dunno - quasi-military or not, Starfleet has a clear chain of command. They softened the naval feel in TNG but the people still behaved like they were there to do their jobs.

Not always.

I never felt like TNG was naval at all. The current shows remind me of working in an office building, professional but with drama, not so buttoned up but still taking orders.

I don't see the issues others seem to.

 

[Pauln6]

Not always.

I never felt like TNG was naval at all. The current shows remind me of working in an office building, professional but with drama, not so buttoned up but still taking orders.

I don't see the issues others seem to.

I think much of the naval feel in TNG and Voyager was down to the actors' gravitas. If Riker or Genevieve Bujold's Janeway had been in charge, then more of an office vibe would have come across. I think I just like the submarine analogy over the floating hotel analogy. Work hard/play hard characters feel more compelling than relax and enjoy your job and then read some slam poetry characters.

 

[fireproof78]

Work hard/play hard characters feel more compelling than relax and enjoy your job and then read some slam poetry characters.

Mileage will vary.

The TOS characters had a compelling way but the newer characters draw me deeper in than before, especially Kelvin Kirk.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I think the look of the technology doesn't need to be updated as much as they did in the prequel sequels although if they hadn't updated the look in TMP I wouldn't have had my favourite ship in the refit so it's fine. It frustrates me more when the canon technology is portrayed doing things seen only 100 years later, sometimes even contradicting express limitations from TOS or even TNG.

The thing the modern shows struggle with the most for me is the naval feel. Sometimes the ships have more of the feel of a high school outing than a professional space force. I don't mind so much if scientists outside the chain of command like McCoy, Romaine, Troi, and Stamets are a bit flakey but the command officers should behave like officers while on duty and save shenanigans and hugging for their downtime.

I agree completely.

• The supposed "prequels" jacked up their technology because that makes it easier to write. They want every magical crutch to lean on. Some of the best adventure stories ever written were from the days of sail, but those things took skill and discipline to write.

• From JJ-Trek onward, the writers don't understand Starfleet as a military service, because they don't like the military. And they don't know anything about military culture for the same reason. But if Starfleet has officers with ranks, armed ships, and they are the ones who fight our wars for us, then Starfleet can only be a military service. You don't have a duty to lay your life down and die for Jet Blue flights out of Myrtle Beach.

• I think this ties in with what I was saying about JJ-Trek and onward being the children of Postmodernism and Therapy Culture, instead of the Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution. The prequels' self-indulgent, emotional, insubordinate, and entitled characters make for crummy Service personnel, even if the plots are always written to vindicate them. In real life, such people are generally incompetent because it takes self-discipline to develop skills.

I read an article somewhere recently by a veteran theater professional who said that today's young actors are in the same loosy-goosy mold as what I'm saying about current-Trek characters. They've ditched "the show must go on" work ethic, and have replaced it with "I'm taking a mental health day." They are also highly inclined to mob and cancel anyone who crosses them.

So it appears that the JJ-Trek and Discovery officers are just reflecting what has happened in real life: they're a generation of narcissists. It's all about Me, and you can go to hell. And boy am I a great Starfleet officer!

 

[fireproof78]

So it appears that the JJ-Trek and Discovery officers are just reflecting what has happened in real life: they're a generation of narcissists. It's all about Me, and you can go to hell. And boy am I a great Starfleet officer!

Funny.

I felt that way about TNG characters. They were always right.

The "me" culture is ingrained in humanity. It takes effort, not shame, to develop a service ethos. And, at a certain point, that ethos will be taken advantage of.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

The "me" culture is ingrained in humanity.

The question is, which values are to be upheld as the ideal? Classical Star Trek gave us the kind of self-disciplined people who make possible all the good things we depend on, like shelter, electricity, roads, vehicles, and clothing.

JJ-Trek and Discovery are more likely to celebrate the kind of entitled narcissists who, in real life, don't contribute anything.

 

[BK613]

Man those darn kids.

And I think my new old favorite word is fribble.

 

[fireproof78]

The question is, which values are to be upheld as the ideal? Classical Star Trek gave us the kind of self-disciplined people who make possible all the good things we depend on. JJ-Trek and Discovery are more likely to celebrate the kind of entitled narcissists who, in real life, don't contribute anything.

Trek is not my ideal.

It's entertainment first, not prescriptive modeling.

And Kelvin Kirk grew past that. Which is why his story means more than straight laced professionals who never show how they became that. So, their example is meaningless because it doesn't show how to become better.