Spoilers Things that grind my gears about S3

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Kahlesh, Jan 13, 2021.

  1. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's exactly the point. Fear keeps them from trying, from going forward, from reaching out. I keep reading "Oh, they should do this, oh they should do that" as if it is just a logical thought process completely unhindered by any sort of emotional ideas. Which, if that is a person's point of view fair enough. But, many humans, and other beings, have emotions and make decisions based upon them; "once bitten twice shy," as the saying goes. So, it isn't lazy writing to say that the Federation splinters and is worried to utilize other technology because they don't know. So, keeping it status quo is their best hope to survive. And that informs their decisions.

    No, it's not logical, it's not rational. It is deeply emotional and that is where many struggle to make decisions. I applaud those who haven't faced crippling depression and anxiety. But, to think that leaders like Vance wouldn't be struggling with such things misunderstands a lot of human nature.
     
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  2. nic3636

    nic3636 Commander Red Shirt

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    Book implied the corridors were common knowledge and given all the ship wreckage inside them there's no reason to assume they aren't, but I don't know that it was ever explicitly stated in the show.

    I thought everyone in the galaxy heard the signal coming from the nebula because it was somehow in the form of lullaby music that seeped into everyone's collective consciousness but was also a distress call. Honestly this part of the story confused me. But I do know that Starfleet knew that there was dilthium in that nebula based on what Vance said about the Kelpian ship.
     
  3. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    No one knew is was distress call until they "cleaned it up". It was just a song that stuck in their head.
    Yes there was in theory dilithium in the Nebula. but how much was unknown. Plus it was far away in a dangerous area.
     
  4. Amasov

    Amasov Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Honestly, practically everything about this season grinded my gears. I don't think I've ever been more frustrated by a show than I have this one. While, yes, there were some absolutely excellent episodes this season, Discovery's writing is abhorrently lazy. Things are set up and then forgotten about because the show loses interest in wanting to develop them. Someone said it in another thread here, but, the show had a MASSIVE case of ADHD this year.
     
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  5. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This year? This is the show that made a long and rather pointless detour in the Mirror universe right in the middle of the first season and haphazardly switched storylines after firing the showrunners during the second...
     
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  6. Amasov

    Amasov Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, my recollection at the time was right before they went into the mirror universe, which was the mid-season finale back then, the Klingon story APPEARED to be winding down. Remember, we didn't know where they wound up back then after they arrived in what was revealed to the MU. So, from my point of view, it was just all a matter of timing. It looked like the back half of the season was going to be set in the MU but it only got confusing because they returned to the Klingon plot for the final two episodes after coming back from the MU. I'd have to watch the first season again, but, I don't recall there being anything of significance from the Klingon story that was screaming for resolution before their detour.

    All I know is, I don't feel the way I do about the show now as I did then. Back then, I wasn't pissed off and frustrated because they didn't seem to know how to tell a serialized story. If anything, I just complained that the Klingon stuff was very uncompelling.
     
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  7. nic3636

    nic3636 Commander Red Shirt

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    I actually really liked the first season right until they got back from the mirror universe. After that it didn't make any sense and the S1 finale was just awful.
     
  8. Amasov

    Amasov Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, same. Season one was fine, I thought. I was pretty enthusiastic about the show back then.

    Now?
     
  9. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It would be really difficult to miss a TW conduit on your doorstep... but then again, sensors in 32nd century don't seem to operate to the same efficiency levels as in 24th century.
    First it was established that long range sensors failed a long time ago (from Sahil), and that he was limited to 600 Ly's... which is not a small radius when you think about that.

    Then we learned that Titan couldn't even send a distress call to Earth despite being in the same solar system and that ANY ship with a functioning comms array (such as even a small shuttle from 24th century) would be way more than enough - and apparently, Earth's scanning ability is the same in the 32nd century as it was in the 23rd... no scanning ability beyond Saturn (even though again, in the 24th century, stationary habitats and Federation planets easily had short range comms with massive distance capabilities).

    I think it has more to do with Starfleet themselves not detecting the distress signal compared to Discovery. Its highly unlikely that Disco is the only ship with a crew curious (or smart) enough to notice the background song which seems to be omni-present throughout what was once The United Federation of Planets space, despite the distances involved (which would have prompted curiosity among the initial survivors of the Burn which would likely still not be in full hardcore survivor mode to clear up that distress call.
     
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  10. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You can make lots of arguments about how Season 3 wasn't quite as good as it could be in some ways. However, I do not understand the argument that it was still "all about Michael" in Season 3.

    I mean, let's compare the tally:

    Season 1: Michael is the "first mutineer" in Starfleet history. She is blamed (though arguably not responsible) for the Klingon War. Tyler and Lorca are both in love with her, although they both betray her as well. In the MU, her deceased mentor's alter is supreme ruler. She singlehandedly saves Earth and the entire Federation.

    Season 2: Michael discovers that a galaxy-wide mystery is in fact the result of a combination of her own mother (who she thought was deceased) and herself. She is the major contribution to foiling a plot by an evil AI which would result in the extinction of all life in the galaxy.

    Season 3: Michael solves a mystery which has confounded the galaxy for over the last century. In the process she helps discover a planet full of dilithium, and saves Discovery. Oh, and she gets a new boyfriend.

    Season 3 obviously had much lower stakes. Ultimately aside from the possible deaths of all of the main characters of the story, there wasn't that much really in jeopardy. It was more a question of incrementally improving upon the existing status quo, rather than restoring the status quo, as was the case in the two earlier seasons.

    But beyond that, aside from Michael being "the hero" there's really not anything which binds Michael uniquely to the plot this season like in the first two. She's just there to get a job done and save the day, similar to the captain in any previous show. There were little touches of her "specialness" (the stuff with Georgiou, and her mom's appearance) but they were more holdovers from "old Discovery" than anything.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
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  11. UssGlenn

    UssGlenn Commodore Commodore

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    This isn't that implausible. It was only around for a few years before the burn, might have taken some time to percolate. Since travel is limited after the burn it there would be far less people who would be in a position to notice it in disparate places. And anyone who grew up with it wouldn't give it a second thought.
     
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  12. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Honestly, a distress call from a 31st century ship taking time to percolate through a nebula doesn't seem plausible, especially since communications are FTL.

    While such problems might be expected in the 23rd and possibly 24th centuries... for the 31st and 32nd century, its a bit of a stretch.
    Not only did SF frequently encounter anomalies and radiation packed nebula in those early time periods, it would have been able to develop viable countermeasures and communication technology would have advanced to such a degree where nebulae wouldn't really interfere anymore.

    Also, Su'Kal was a boy of several years when his mother died and he screamed. Years would have been way more than enough time for 'someone' to pick up the distress call.

    For no one to have noticed that distress call years before the Burn is quite frankly ridiculous.
     
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  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's more a matter of are people willing to take the time and resources to investigate. The answer was "No" until recently. Simple as that.
     
  14. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    Sensors and other tech only work as well as the plot requires. There's always something that can throw off a sensor for unknown reasons and until our heroes tech the tech and find a work around.
     
  15. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    good point: since the burn didn’t happen until her death one wonders what went wrong with the investigation on a missing ship whose distress signal somehow was that powerful.
     
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  16. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Teching the tech doesn't always work until you know how to tech the tech. Despite insistence to the contrary, Trek tech has always been like magic in that it works sometimes, and other times it doesn't. And sometimes it works in really weird ways.
     
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  17. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Indeed.

    By the mid 24th century, a subspace communication from Andromeda galaxy (2.7 million Ly's away) would have taken about 50 years to reach Starfleet (if 'Where no one has gone before' episode of TNG is any indication).... that's about 54 000 times speed of light (and Warp 9.9 = 21 473 times speed of light by 2371)... which means that subspace comms were traveling at about Warp factor of 9.915 (if you factor in the premise that past every increment after 9.9, speed increases exponentially) - without aid of subspace amplifiers.

    Even with taking newest measurements of Milky Way into consideration that puts it at 150 000 - 200 000 lightyears large (not 100 000), it would have taken about 3 or 4 years for the signal to be heard throughout the entire Milky Way galaxy (if it was sent using 24th century level of subspace communication technology, which we know it wasn't - it was sent using FAR more advanced technology).

    For the 31st century level of subspace technology... the signal would likely spread through the galaxy in seconds or less... heck, the hyper-subspace signals in 2377 allowed real-time communications through 16 000 Ly's of space - so someone SHOULD have picked up the distress signal well before the Burn happened.

    But you do raise a good point as to what might have went wrong.

    We do know that for the UFP, the Temporal Wars ended sometime in the mid 31st century... this would need to have occurred before the year 3064 (if we Burn happened exactly 125 years before the year 3189).
    Daniels told Archer he was from 900 years in the past... so, from around 3051... and in 2153, we learn that Daniels told Archer the Temporal Wars came to a close. Now, those wars (to uphold the Temporal Accords) could have easily lasted some 50 to 60 years before they finally stopped... so, that would give the Federation (and the Galaxy) about a decade or less to recover (but the nature of time travel is such that any changes to the timeline were basically undone - so, no real casualties because it would be like a massive reset button).

    The Kelpien ship probably left in 3063, or sometime in 3064... and the Federation knew where they went.
    So, the ship crash-lands, and no one notices it went missing in the Verubin nebula (the very same place they were sent to investigate this 'Dilihtium nursery')?

    Heck, Starfleet is METICULOUS with reports, so if the ship hadn't tried getting back in touch, SF would have had to send a ship to investigate (this would be even more pressing due to Dilithium shortages).

    If a whole search party was sent after Voyager which lasted a good time (years) before it was finally/officially declared lost, what the heck prevented SF from sending 2 ships to go after the Kelpiens?

    Something tells me the writers hadn't really thought any of this through carefully... or the Dilitihum shortage has gotten so bad to the point where it may have prevented any rescue operations... but, we see Starfleet and what's left of the Federation merrily putting out fires on a daily basis and sending fleets around... so something is not adding up.

    Unless crucial technology was damaged on the Kelpien ship which prevented hypersubspace or even normal subspace transmission... which seems unlikely because in that case, the signal wouldn't be able to propagate through the galaxy to be heard in the distorted manner... or the nebula interfered with subspace communications to such a degree where it slowed them down (but given the nature of the Burn, you'd think the opposite would occur).
     
  18. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    wait, do they say they were specifically sent to the nebula and right to investigate a potential dilithium nursery? If that’s so it really makes no sense: they knew the area they went missing and had a strong incentive to send other chips there anyway!
     
  19. nic3636

    nic3636 Commander Red Shirt

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    Yes Vance said it. I think it might make more sense if the nebula was really really far away, but it wasn't. There is a transwarp conduit between Fed HQ and the nebula that you can travel in a matter of minutes.
     
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  20. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ugh.
     
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