Things I Have Noticed on a TOS Rewatch
- Thread starter InklingStar
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So the assumption could be it would something similar for Return to Tomorrow, and his work as Sargon. Doohan did quite a bit of v/o work the end of the second season....
Not necessarily - in that episode, he might merely have had the clearance to rewrite flight recorder visuals, a no-brainer for anyone with that clearance. Logically, the CO and his XO would be likely candidates for the clearance, along with Records Officer which seems to be futurospeak for Geek Supreme Of Computer Things. But only Spock and Finney would have the skill to do it without permission and without leaving traces.
The wording in ST2 still left open the possibility that the no-win scenario features a lot of variety and surprise twists, and only occasionally involves a ship named Kobayashi Maru at all; it would do so in Kirk's test, and in Saavik's, the latter being because Kirk, in charge this time, wanted a reminder of the old days for his birthday, or Spock, still running the show, wanted to reward his friend with such a memory.
Yet the wording of STXI involves Spock specifically being in charge of "the Kobayashi Maru scenario" for four consecutive years, suggesting such a ship (real or faked) is always present. That gets us back to the question of why anybody would retake the test after learning that the ship was a Klingon fake. So probably (and sidestepping further questions about the wisdom of reusing the one scenario year after year) the ship isn't a fake, but (as in the STXI test) a real damsel in distress, perhaps lured into the NZ by the Klingons for use as bait for bigger fish, or mermaids or whatever if you don't want to mix the metaphors. Kirk would then retake the test specifically hoping to defeat the Klingons in battle (of wits or phaser firepower, we don't know, but I guess he would have tried both).
And that would be the intent of the test, which is why Kirk was allowed to bang his head against the wall - it was not a rescue mission at all, as the whole point was that the cadet would have to fight Klingons until his or her death. I could see the two different Kirks cheating on that in two different ways: the STXI one makes mockery of the whole test, while the ST2 one removes the block that categorically prevents any rescue attempt that does not involve fighting Klingons to the death, and then performs a suitably clever and still realistic rescue mission. The STXI fellah would be lucky to escape with his career intact, the ST2 one might indeed get a commendation for lack of better disciplinary measures, but both would have come to the important realization that the test is a cheat, simply reacting to this fact differently. And fairly obviously, because the ST2 Kirk supposedly hadn't coped with death yet (Kodos the Executioner notwithstanding - and we now know Kodos didn't kill Kirk's father and probably didn't kill his mother, either).
Not that STXI would have that much relevance to the way things were presented, and fascinatingly evolved, in TOS. But the Kobayashi Maru is fun in allowing us to see both the supposed solemn TOS Jim "Bookstack" Kirk and the irreverent STXI Jim "Sisters Sandwich" Kirk plausibly having an issue with it, and doing something about it that perfectly summarizes the character.
Timo Saloniemi
Yes for a test that has last at least 4 years there would have to be scenarios where the damaged ship was real, where it wasn't, where the number of Klingon ships change, where the fighting ability of friend and foe varied.
Its interesting the while in TWOK Kirk intellectually understood that the Kobayashi Maru was a 'test of character' he really didn't understand it until it became real, not a simulation.
Obviously nuKirk had less idea until it became real for him too.
Kirk seems like the type to see right through an illusion. He would never forget that the test was just a simulation, and his run of extraordinary luck in real-life adventures might make him subconsciously think that the universe can be manipulated in the same way as the test computers. How many no-win scenarios did he cheat his way out of in TOS? He talked half a dozen godlike computers to death. He defeated godlike aliens multiple times. Twice he used the corbomite bluff to save his ship when all seemed lost. Decker's sacrifice in TMP almost prefigures Spock's in TWoK, but Decker was not his best friend. Sure, Kirk agonized over the deaths of his crewmen, but it never hit home until he saw Spock's burned body in engineering.
* When Spock and the Romulan commander share dinner in "The Enterprise Incident," they share a blue liquor that Spock seems to find rather fascinating. It is not mentioned, but we could make a strong case that this was the first appearance of Romulan Ale in the franchise. Nick Meyer and Harve Bennett watched the whole series preparing for TWoK, so it is entirely possible they made a deliberate connection. Perhaps some of you might know the story there.
* So much of Trek's well-known musical cues come from season 2 - especially "Amok Time" and "The Doomsday Machine". However, I am enjoying the music in season 3. It is different and new. Is there a soundtrack album somewhere for each season? George Duning is credited for a lot of the episodes where I find myself enjoying the music enough to pay attention during the end credits.
* When Spock and the Romulan commander share dinner in "The Enterprise Incident," they share a blue liquor that Spock seems to find rather fascinating. It is not mentioned, but we could make a strong case that this was the first appearance of Romulan Ale in the franchise. Nick Meyer and Harve Bennett watched the whole series preparing for TWoK, so it is entirely possible they made a deliberate connection. Perhaps some of you might know the story there.
* So much of Trek's well-known musical cues come from season 2 - especially "Amok Time" and "The Doomsday Machine". However, I am enjoying the music in season 3. It is different and new. Is there a soundtrack album somewhere for each season? George Duning is credited for a lot of the episodes where I find myself enjoying the music enough to pay attention during the end credits.
Is there?
http://lalalandrecords.com/Site/STTOS.html
It is WELL worth the cost and in the two years I've had it, I have yet to grow tired of it. It's always getting play.
The notion offered up in TWOK that Kirk had never faced death is utter bullshit. Of course he has. Numerous times.
There were times he thought McCoy or Spock were lost and he had no hand in retrieving them. He faced what he believed was certain death for himself and his entire crew even if it didn't actually pan out that way.
According to TWOK he took the test twice already before he tinkered with the programming for a third test. So his likely reaction in facing a so-called "no win scenario" was already known by his superiors. The third time around displayed his predeliction to exhaust all conceivable possibilities to avoid a disastrous outcome.
It would have been different if Kirk had prepared for the KM test by tinkering with the program on his first try. That would have been a bad showing.
But the underlying thought behind the idea of being Kirk being a sneak and a cheat is a reinterpretation of the TOS Kirk. TOS Kirk was depicted as intelligent and extremely resourceful as well as fast on his feet. He also remained well composed under pressure. Those are all commendable qualities in an officer and leader. But TWOK seeks to undermine that by trying to paint Kirk as a cheat.
So who is to say that TOS Kirk ever cheated or felt he had to cheat on such a test? The test itself would reveal that Kirk would have utilized all his abilities to think of a way to "win" the scenario and face the inevitable outcome in much the same way we saw him face what he believed was likely certain death at moments seen throughout TOS.
It's not cheating if you can think of a way out of a life threatening situation where there remains a very good chance you can certainly lose. Otherwise you're only honourable if you just sit back and gracefully accept death?
There were times he thought McCoy or Spock were lost and he had no hand in retrieving them. He faced what he believed was certain death for himself and his entire crew even if it didn't actually pan out that way.
According to TWOK he took the test twice already before he tinkered with the programming for a third test. So his likely reaction in facing a so-called "no win scenario" was already known by his superiors. The third time around displayed his predeliction to exhaust all conceivable possibilities to avoid a disastrous outcome.
It would have been different if Kirk had prepared for the KM test by tinkering with the program on his first try. That would have been a bad showing.
But the underlying thought behind the idea of being Kirk being a sneak and a cheat is a reinterpretation of the TOS Kirk. TOS Kirk was depicted as intelligent and extremely resourceful as well as fast on his feet. He also remained well composed under pressure. Those are all commendable qualities in an officer and leader. But TWOK seeks to undermine that by trying to paint Kirk as a cheat.
So who is to say that TOS Kirk ever cheated or felt he had to cheat on such a test? The test itself would reveal that Kirk would have utilized all his abilities to think of a way to "win" the scenario and face the inevitable outcome in much the same way we saw him face what he believed was likely certain death at moments seen throughout TOS.
It's not cheating if you can think of a way out of a life threatening situation where there remains a very good chance you can certainly lose. Otherwise you're only honourable if you just sit back and gracefully accept death?
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You know, I hadn't really ever thought about it like that before -- but I like it.
I like the image in my head of the academy instructors being baffled that the test now suddenly has an actual Kobyashi Maru in it to be rescued. And then, Kirk pulls a rabbit out of the hat and rescues it.
My own feeling on the KM test is, as sorta per the novels, that it isn't so much a 'command test' as it is a way for the instructors to see how a cadet reacts, possibly assessing things like where their natural decision making leads them, so as to help steer them towards the right path. So, someone like Kirk or Sulu show natural command sensibilities, while Scotty's solution indicated technical know-how. The fact that the test can't be won isn't as important as seeing how the cadet chooses to tackle the situation.
^^ That is exactly what the test is supposed to be--a test of character in how will the individual respond/react when faced with an inevitable "no win" situation.
I imagine there would be many variations on this test as it evolved over the years. And it strikes me that those "in command" during the exercise aren't the only ones being tested.
Makes one wonder how Lt. Bailey (re: "The Corbomite Maneuver") managed during such a test.
I imagine there would be many variations on this test as it evolved over the years. And it strikes me that those "in command" during the exercise aren't the only ones being tested.
Makes one wonder how Lt. Bailey (re: "The Corbomite Maneuver") managed during such a test.
...And/or whether he took it, considering Spock did not. Who gets tested? Evidently, people who are Cadets and Lieutenants at the same time; possibly, people who aim at starship command after completing their undergraduate studies at the Academy.
Spock might actually have been neither of those. His studies on Vulcan might have allowed him to skip much of the Academy, perhaps even all of it, and he confesses to never having had actual command ambitions. Why bring this up? Well, Spock never took Kobayashi Maru. This would be both trivial and contradictory if Spock invented Kobayashi Maru! But we might deduce from his TWoK phrasing that the test preceded his implementation of it, and him taking it wasn't a prerequisite for him managing it later on.
Or any other combination of prime and new timeline features. But nothing suggests taking the no-win test is a common thing in any incarnation of Starfleet.
Timo Saloniemi
Spock might actually have been neither of those. His studies on Vulcan might have allowed him to skip much of the Academy, perhaps even all of it, and he confesses to never having had actual command ambitions. Why bring this up? Well, Spock never took Kobayashi Maru. This would be both trivial and contradictory if Spock invented Kobayashi Maru! But we might deduce from his TWoK phrasing that the test preceded his implementation of it, and him taking it wasn't a prerequisite for him managing it later on.
Or any other combination of prime and new timeline features. But nothing suggests taking the no-win test is a common thing in any incarnation of Starfleet.
Timo Saloniemi
That was my understanding of the test as presented in TWOK as well. It was probably one of hundreds of tests that got randomly picked and thrown at cadets through various academic years. The KM may have had a fearsome reputation among undergraduates but few would have actually known anyone who had had first hand experience of it.
Otherwise, what's the point?
Otherwise, what's the point?
Interestingly, Kobyashi Maru is not only a "no win" scenario, but it's ironically also a no lose scenario as well... because the purpose of the test isn't to win or to lose, but is simply a pretense so the instructors can see the strategies and reactions that a crew member would take in just such a case. It is claimed that Kirk never faced the no-win scenario, so the idea that he had heard about the test and re-programmed it before even taking it the first time seems like a good possibility.
Despite what others have said, I could actually see TOS Kirk doing something like that. Pre-empting the no win scenario with one that he can win.
Despite what others have said, I could actually see TOS Kirk doing something like that. Pre-empting the no win scenario with one that he can win.
Is there?
http://lalalandrecords.com/Site/STTOS.html
It is WELL worth the cost and in the two years I've had it, I have yet to grow tired of it. It's always getting play.
Thanks! I'll uh, I'll start saving my pennies.
Of course Kirk faced death. But he always found a way to escape it. Only in TWoK did that escape require the life of his best friend, which made it different. Up until that point in the movie, he had been escaping no-win scenarios the same way he did in the original series. The prefix codes and the hours/days trick were just two more "cheats" that saved the day, not unlike the corbomite maneuver or talking the M5 to death and leaving the shields down for Commodore Wesley. In the situation at the end of TWoK, however, he has run out of tricks, he has run out of ideas. All he can do is wait for Scotty to perform another unexpected engineering miracle or for Spock to suggest a scientific solution.
Kirk did not escape Edith Keeler's death or Gary Mitchell's or his brother's or his sister-in-law's or Miramanee's or Rayna's or any number of his crew. He did not escape the deaths of Captain Garrovick or the four thousand executed by Kodos. And there were times he had good reason to believe Spock and McCoy were dead or that he himself was likely to die.
Yet none of these seem to have mattered one iota. Kirk may be disappointed he didn't win ("Let's get the hell out of here"), but he doesn't appear affected in the long run, not in the slightest.
The only death among those above that Kirk ever actually returns to is Garrovick's, and that's in the context that Kirk lost that round and wants a rematch. It appears we're dealing with a rather selfish bastard of a soldier, one of the archetypes that are likely to survive war after war and hoard all sorts of commendations...
Timo Saloniemi
The only death among those above that Kirk ever actually returns to is Garrovick's, and that's in the context that Kirk lost that round and wants a rematch. It appears we're dealing with a rather selfish bastard of a soldier, one of the archetypes that are likely to survive war after war and hoard all sorts of commendations...
Timo Saloniemi
This appears to be a serious misunderstanding of the TOS Kirk character--and episodic television. Kirk was shattered in the cases of his brother/sister-in-law, Mitchell, Edith, Rayna and the people executed by Kodos. In each case, his feelings had to be forced between a critical mission, heightening his troubles.
However, due to the nature of episodic TV, he was not going to be seen crying over it several episodes later, but that does not in any way mean the losses were devoid of emotional impact due to being about some imagined personal, shallow victory. That was not the intent or execution of scripts were Kirk suffered a loss.
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