Then and Now- Kelvinverse Movies

[M'Sharak]

It fuels the myth that Abrams did all the creative work.

What myth?

Who has ever maintained that Abrams did all the creative work? No one I'm aware of. Certainly no one who's been paying any attention at all to what was happening.

Referring to these movies or to the "alternate reality" timeline as "Abrams Trek" or "the J.J.-Verse" has never been anything but convenient shorthand used to indicate which productions were being discussed, in the same way that "Modern Trek" has been used to distinguish between series produced in 1980s-1990s and those TV episodes and movies featuring the original series cast.

Objecting to the labels on the grounds that the terms "fuel" a "myth" which never existed in the first place is just silly.

 

[fireproof78]

It fuels the myth that Abrams did all the creative work.

Only if people are ignorant of how the movie making process actually works.

Edit: Ninja'd by @M'Sharak and their superior post. And the fact that my draft refused to post!

 

[YouAreDooomed]

Only if people are ignorant of how the movie making process actually works.

Yes, that's what I'm actually talking about.

What myth?

Who has ever maintained that Abrams did all the creative work? No one I'm aware of. Certainly no one who's been paying any attention at all to what was happening.

Myth is perhaps too strong a word, I generally noticed many comments on the net like JJ did this, JJ ruined that... On the previous page, someone claimed he had "the guts to destroy a major Federation power and kill Lady Amanda."

 

[fireproof78]

Myth is perhaps too strong a word, I generally noticed many comments on the net like JJ did this, JJ ruined that... On the previous page, someone claimed he had "the guts to destroy a major Federation power and kill Lady Amanda."

So making a director a scapegoat is somehow pushing all creativity on to him? Thus far, this argument is making less sense. Individuals who do not like the films are going to find fault with the production team. Usually the director is front and center on that, like executive producers are on TV shows. Berman gets lambasted for poor decisions in TNG, DS9 and VOY, hence called "The Berman Era." But I hardly think that all decisions were his fault.

It's a short hand way of critiquing.

 

[YouAreDooomed]

So making a director a scapegoat is somehow pushing all creativity on to him?

If someone claims Abrams decided to do something in one of the movies, he or she self-evidently insinuates that he had (full) creative control over the plot.

 

[fireproof78]

If someone claims Abrams decided to do something in one of the movies, he or she self-evidently insinuates that he had (full) creative control over the plot.

It would depend on the nature of the claim. As I said, directors are often scapegoats for movies individuals do not like, and ignore the actual creative decision making process in film making.

However, it can also be a catch all term. So, I would not be so quick to judge such an insinuation without clarification from the individual.

 

[valkyrie013]

Header Topic:
2009
Then: I liked it, was irritated with the Enterprise design, plot holes the size of a borg cube..
Now: Still like it, Enterprise design grew on me..

ST:ID
Then, Liked it, still plot holes the size of a buick, irritated at the TWOK remake stuff..
Now: Like it, bout the same

ST:B
Then: Liked it.. Fuming at destroying the Enterprise..
Now: About the same, best movie, story wise, and stiff fuming at them just tossing the Enterprise away at the drop of a coin..

Current topic..
Well, most of the time we blame the guy/girl who is the most in charge.. with the new movies, it was JJ, he was the director and producer.. so he had the most say so, so if something was wrong.. its perfectly fine to blame him because He was the one that had final edit..
Now the 80/90's trek, Berman was the most in control, so any fanfare or blame lies on him.. he okays the scripts, shows etc.
Now it really depends on the series or movies, if the studio's sit on it and do there own cut.. then you can't blame the director, like Dune.. or say with the Marvel movies, the directors are handed the scripts usually, and go in a direction there told.. so say if Ant man and wasp sucked ( wasnt the best..) then you can't really blame the director to much.. he's just filling out studio orders..

 

[fireproof78]

Well, most of the time we blame the guy/girl who is the most in charge.. with the new movies, it was JJ, he was the director and producer.. so he had the most say so, so if something was wrong.. its perfectly fine to blame him because He was the one that had final edit..

Well put. The buck has to stop somewhere.

 

[Khan 2.0]

ST4 Revolutions
Then (summer 2019): like Beyond felt it was abit of a letdown. could tell it was pretty much the Orci/Shatner ST3 script rewritten for Hemsworth, some nice character moments taking the place of the overblown action from the previous 3, but the end sacrifice felt abit too predictable as did the kelvin timeline remaining (despite the entire film trying to make out it would get erased Yesterdays Ent style) Hopefully the lackluster box office (285m ww on a 100m budget) wont cancel Tarantino Trek

Now: still the same..

 

[F. King Daniel]

^I love how even those of us who wanted ST4 to happen kind of expected it to disappoint financially

 

[Nightdiamond]

Here's my impressions

2009 Then --I anticipated seeing this one. I actually liked how they modernized it, finally. The characters, places and the people in general seemed more relatable. I liked seeing the crew originally as cadets and things Kirk like hitting on Uhura. And getting to finally see more aspects of Uhura's life and personality.

The Nero and Vulcan destruction and the action scenes didn't get much of a reaction from me, probably because I've become desensitized to all the CGI destruction at this point.

Then comes the ending where Kirk is made captain of the Enterprise.....I just felt it was cheesy and a big hit on creditability .

Now - I still like the looks and appreciate how it brought Trek up to date as far as style and how the characters talk, act etc. But now, the promotion thing- I feel like it damaged the series.

By the way, I noticed that side by side, Trek 2009 is a lot like Starship Troopers.(Corrected)

Trek ITD Then ; I heard a lot about it, I still like the look and style of Kelvin version of things. The story is pretty good and there are some funny parts in it (Scotty). The ship to ship battle and action is pretty engaging. Some things in it, like the Khan part is silly (another credibility hit), Kirk being killed only to be resurrected, which everyone knew would happen. And Spock yelling KHAN!!!!. But it's still watchable.

But-----when Chekov was made chief engineer in Scotty's place, and Sulu is put in command of the ship when Kirk leaves I had a feeling something was wrong. They were rushing a lot of stuff in this film and it shows.

Now- Now I know something was wrong because it skipped over a lot, probably too much. Now that the crew was fast promoted on the Enterprise, I thought we were at least supposed to watch them develop over time into the characters we've always been familiar with. Like seeing Spock and McCoy arguing over time. Sulu and Uhura becoming expert senior officers through experience. Getting used to the Enterprise. Meeting Mudd, Lester etc. The chemistry, the experiences.

But then I realized the movies were saying this ALREADY IS the crew we're supposed to be familiar with already. There's no waiting for this to develop over time, it's happened already. I feel it was a fatal flaw in the entire series that affected Beyond and the franchise's future.

Beyond- Then and Now are pretty much the same. I am neutral on this movie. I have no feelings good or bad on it. The destruction of the Enterprise, the characters developments, the plot- nothing , it all feels hollow. It just doesn't elicit much of a reaction. Most likely because of the reactions to ITD I mentioned above.

I hardly pay attention to it, but each time I do see it, I am more convinced they never should have fast forwarded the promotion of Kirk to captain and rushed everything else along with it. That being said, I find the Kelvin movies 1-2 more watchable than some of the TNG movies.

 

[Rahul]

By the way, I noticed that side by side, Trek 2009 is a lot like Starfleet Troopers.

I guess you mean Starship Troopers?
If so, not sure if I agree. Yes, the "sexy young adults going to academy" has a bit of a similar vibe, especially how surprisingly militaristic with a shiny look ST09s academy is. But overall I think these two movies depart sharply after that.

I always thought ST09 was an attempt at playing Galaxy Quest straight.
It steals so much of the same imagery, even most of the jokes. Nero is essentially Sarris, the Narada looks and feels like Sarris' ship (and unlike any previous Trek ship) - hell, it even fires the very same type of missiles at the Enterprise!

And the movie is just too similarly structured, with too many similar setpieces and scenes to be coincidental - from letting Dr. Lazarus grow through emotional death scenes, the wacky "chompers" inside the ship, the unconnected "there's always a bigger fish"-monster-on-planet moment, the "Sarris tortures the previous Captain"-scene, the "helmsman f-s up the glorious departure from spacedock"-scene, the "wacky-engineer-makes-a-difficult-beaming-up-work", the making fun of the redshirt-trope, the magic time mcguffin(tm) being stored inside the ship, hell, even phaser-fights-in-coridors look more like Galaxy Quest than ever on Star Trek (or Wars) before.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I guess you mean Starship Troopers?
If so, not sure if I agree. Yes, the "sexy young adults going to academy" has a bit of a similar vibe, especially how surprisingly militaristic with a shiny look ST09s academy is. But overall I think these two movies depart sharply after that.

I always thought ST09 was an attempt at playing Galaxy Quest straight.
It steals so much of the same imagery, even most of the jokes. Nero is essentially Sarris, the Narada looks and feels like Sarris' ship (and unlike any previous Trek ship) - hell, it even fires the very same type of missiles at the Enterprise!

And the movie is just too similarly structured, with too many similar setpieces and scenes to be coincidental - from letting Dr. Lazarus grow through emotional death scenes, the wacky "chompers" inside the ship, the unconnected "there's always a bigger fish"-monster-on-planet moment, the "Sarris tortures the previous Captain"-scene, the "helmsman f-s up the glorious departure from spacedock"-scene, the "wacky-engineer-makes-a-difficult-beaming-up-work", the making fun of the redshirt-trope, the magic time mcguffin(tm) being stored inside the ship, hell, even phaser-fights-in-coridors look more like Galaxy Quest than ever on Star Trek (or Wars) before.

Oh yes, sorry, I meant Starship Troopers (corrected). Visually, I'll say Galaxy Quest resembles Trek 2009 a lot.

Story wise, there are a lot similarities between Trek 2009 and Starship Troopers. Here's the similarities.

Starship Troopers;

1. Rico, starts off as a confused, aimless youth.
2.Talks with a mentor (his classroom teacher who's also an officer in the service), and decides to join the service. His friends do too.
3. Has tension with a superior officer and rival love interest.
4. Rico rises during recruit training, but makes a mistake during a live round exercise. A recruit gets killed, Rico gets disciplined as punishment. Rico then decides to quit.
5. The "bugs" attack earth killing a large number of people
6. The recruits are then activated and put on ships to confront the bugs.
7. Rico changes his mind, goes to an older soldier and convinces him to let him back in. He's let back in.
8. Rico's mentor, (the classroom teacher) is the commander of his squad.
9. The first wave of soldiers is annihilated.
10. Rico's mentor is killed, he's made temporary squad leader.
11. They defeat the bugs, and at the end Rico is shown as a Lieutenant, the squad commander, and his friends shown as senior commissioned officers.

Trek 2009;

1. Kirk, starts off as a confused aimless youth.
2. Talks with a mentor, (captain Pike) decides to join Starfleet academy. Uhura, McCoy, Sulu do too.
3. Has tension with a superior (Spock)
4. During the Kobayashi Maru, Kirk is caught cheating, gets put on suspension as punishment.
5. Nero attacks Vulcan, killing a huge number of people
6. The cadets are commissioned and put on ships to confront the danger.
7. Kirk wants to come too, but is on suspension. He convinces another recruit (McCoy) to help get him on the ship.
8. Kirk's mentor, Pike, is the captain of the Enterprise
9. The first set of ships sent in is annihilated.
10. Pike is severely injured and Kirk ends up taking temporary command of the Enterprise
11. They defeat Nero and at the end, Kirk is shown as the captain of the Enterprise and his friends are all senior officers.

I could be seeing all of this subjectively, but the coincidences are crazy, lol.

 

[Khan 2.0]

I remember seeing SST back in 97 and thinking it wouldve made a great (R rated) StarFleet Academy movie and the lead guy was like a young Kirk (how I imagined young kirk to be).. I guess JJ & Co felt the same

 

[Rahul]

Oh yes, sorry, I meant Starship Troopers (corrected). Visually, I'll say Galaxy Quest resembles Trek 2009 a lot.

Story wise, there are a lot similarities between Trek 2009 and Starship Troopers. Here's the similarities.

Starship Troopers;

1. Rico, starts off as a confused, aimless youth.
2.Talks with a mentor (his classroom teacher who's also an officer in the service), and decides to join the service. His friends do too.
3. Has tension with a superior officer and rival love interest.
4. Rico rises during recruit training, but makes a mistake during a live round exercise. A recruit gets killed, Rico gets disciplined as punishment. Rico then decides to quit.
5. The "bugs" attack earth killing a large number of people
6. The recruits are then activated and put on ships to confront the bugs.
7. Rico changes his mind, goes to an older soldier and convinces him to let him back in. He's let back in.
8. Rico's mentor, (the classroom teacher) is the commander of his squad.
9. The first wave of soldiers is annihilated.
10. Rico's mentor is killed, he's made temporary squad leader.
11. They defeat the bugs, and at the end Rico is shown as a Lieutenant, the squad commander, and his friends shown as senior commissioned officers.

Trek 2009;

1. Kirk, starts off as a confused aimless youth.
2. Talks with a mentor, (captain Pike) decides to join Starfleet academy. Uhura, McCoy, Sulu do too.
3. Has tension with a superior (Spock)
4. During the Kobayashi Maru, Kirk is caught cheating, gets put on suspension as punishment.
5. Nero attacks Vulcan, killing a huge number of people
6. The cadets are commissioned and put on ships to confront the danger.
7. Kirk wants to come too, but is on suspension. He convinces another recruit (McCoy) to help get him on the ship.
8. Kirk's mentor, Pike, is the captain of the Enterprise
9. The first set of ships sent in is annihilated.
10. Pike is severely injured and Kirk ends up taking temporary command of the Enterprise
11. They defeat Nero and at the end, Kirk is shown as the captain of the Enterprise and his friends are all senior officers.

I could be seeing all of this subjectively, but the coincidences are crazy, lol.

Oh yes, the plot surely has lots of similar beats. Though I think that's more down to classic storytelling templates, especially in a military environment:
Guy starts out, is the best, makes mistake, gets downgraded, situation goes to shit, he has to step up and prove himself, and succeeds.

In fact, this is the same arc they were gunning for with Michael Burnham on DIS, and if you put ou a 18th century military/ naval novel of a shelf, you'd probably find a similar structure. Hell, it's not even limited to military - think about all the music movies! Guy is talented musician, rises up, makes mistakes (say, drugs), gets kicked out of band, makes a glorious return at the darkest hour, delivers the performance of a lifetime.

I think this mostly speaks to how common certain templates are. That's why it's not enough to look at the template, but also at how is presented, with Starship Troopers luring you in with such a well known formula until you didn't even notice it's faking fascist propaganda and total submission to (military) authority. Whereas in ST09 the heroes success because they learn to play together as a team, with each individuals strengths playing together.

The big difference being that Starship Troopers is a direct meta satire of said template, whereas ST09 plays it pretty straight. One of the reasons why people complained about this movie being very unoriginal, even though every single scene was filmed in an energetic way never before seen on Star Trek.

 

[YouAreDooomed]

Well, most of the time we blame the guy/girl who is the most in charge.. with the new movies, it was JJ, he was the director and producer.. so he had the most say so, so if something was wrong.. its perfectly fine to blame him because He was the one that had final edit..

JJ as the guy who was most in charge is quite a stretch. Initially he was'nt even supposed to direct ST '09 but to act as one of the producers, Damon Lindelof and Bryan Burk (Executive Producer) had major roles behind the scenes, and if we continue to play this game, one may hold the (then) executives of Paramount liable. The idea that JJ could have theoretically gone like, "Fuck it! I do as I please" without anyone being able to restrain him is just laughable.

Even if he had been top dog, it would still not be "perfectly fine" to blame/ praise him for everything what happens in the movie(s), and just expose people's ignorance concerning the actual production history, he had no reason to meddle with Orci's and Kurtzman's ideas who were much more into Trek.

Further, I would criticize fans for making Berman responsible for the plot of DS9 (as an example) now as well, since he, despite being co-creator and former "supervisor" of ST, had little/ nothing to do with the course of the show.

I do understand why people do it, but it is simply not justified.

Oh yes, sorry, I meant Starship Troopers (corrected). Visually, I'll say Galaxy Quest resembles Trek 2009 a lot.

Story wise, there are a lot similarities between Trek 2009 and Starship Troopers. Here's the similarities.

[...]

I could be seeing all of this subjectively, but the coincidences are crazy, lol.

No coincidences, it's more or less the classical Hero's journey.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero's_journey

See also the original Star Wars movie from 1977.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I remember seeing SST back in 97 and thinking it wouldve made a great (R rated) StarFleet Academy movie and the lead guy was like a young Kirk (how I imagined young kirk to be).. I guess JJ & Co felt the same

That was one guess I had too. They're very similar as far as how they started out and ended up.

Oh yes, the plot surely has lots of similar beats. Though I think that's more down to classic storytelling templates, especially in a military environment:
Guy starts out, is the best, makes mistake, gets downgraded, situation goes to shit, he has to step up and prove himself, and succeeds.

No coincidences, it's more or less the classical Hero's journey.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero's_journey

See also the original Star Wars movie from 1977.

True, but--look especially at the sceneswhere both Kirk and Rico mess up during training and get suspended. Then the attack, then the other recruits and cadets are activated.

And both Rico and Kirk try to get back in and they are eventually let back in.

Now that's too much similarity to ignore. Straight parallel.

 

[Jadeb]

I liked the idea of revisiting TOS and was very pleased with the cast they assembled. After the first one, I thought there was a lot of potential there. The movie did a good job setting up the new universe, even if it the story was kinda goofy, and I thought maybe the next will be better.

Then I saw the next.

All the goodwill I had went out the window. The Khan scream made me laugh out loud, and the whole thing just seemed terribly misjudged. The major story beats were completely unearned, and it felt like a generic would-be blockbuster. Suddenly the flaws in the first one were drawn into sharp relief, and I began to question the overall direction.

Beyond was better but still not great. It's done by the Bond formula, complete with strong Bond woman who still needs rescuing and a motorbike chase. The revenge angle is tired, tired, tired. Idris Elba was completely squandered, as Cumberbatch was before him. It wasn't bad so much as disappointing. Shallow, like the others.

And that's where I left it. I doubt I'll watch any of them again, and I can't say I'm terribly saddened that they might not make more. If they don't, it will be a big missed opportunity for a good cast.

 

[plynch]

Now I don't need to write anything! Crazily sympatico, Jadeb.

 

[ScottJ85]

I really only had one objection to Beyond at the time - instead of defeating the swarm with Sabotage, it should have been Fight For Your Right.

I haven't changed my mind.