Then and Now- Kelvinverse Movies

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Vger23, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Fans hate change, even when it makes a lot of logical sense.

    I think the issues were more with the nature of the scene and the rather random buggy chase sequence rather than the concept of a landing party vehicle.
     
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  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    One, fans hate anything remotely resembling a change to their definition of a product, myself included (glass houses and stones and all that). However, my issue with the Argo scene was the fact that it was a pre-warp civilization, and our heroes were just firing on them. The scene felt very pointless.

    Also, the Argo buggy doesn't have a windshield. Seems like a big oversight, because, flying rocks can hurt.
     
  3. Rahul

    Rahul Commodore Commodore

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    I think the problem was very much - that it was a fuckin' dune buggy.

    Like, I think this would have caught a LOT less flak if they would have driven something more appropriate (and useable!) on a starship, like for example nuLost in Space's Chariot vehicle, or something similarly "science-y" lookin':
     
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  4. pst

    pst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    exactly. forget for a second that the scene looks cheap as hell, the fact that they happened to take their dune buggy down to a planet where the alien inhabitants also drove around in dune buggies... i just can't. also, it's the most egregious example of star trek nemesis' complete lack of understanding of jean-luc picard.
     
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  5. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I didn't think the scene looked cheap by any means, but it was rather ridiculous.

    I couldn't figure out a few things:

    1. How did the initial scans not reveal that the Kolarans were alien versions of the Lord Humungous gang from Mad Max and were close enough to interfere with the mission (Picard: "There's no foreseeable danger")?
    2. How did the scanners and tricorders not pick up that Lord Humungous was approaching with his desert dune buggies while everyone's picking up pieces of Brent Spiner?
    3. How is it justified that the Argo just drives around shooting particle cannons at these pre-warp idiots? There have been entire episodes dedicated to hiding advanced tech from underdeveloped aliens....
    ...Meanwhile, on Kolaris III.....
    [​IMG]
    4. There are scenes of the Lord Humungous gang chasing from about 7 meters behind the Argo, and Worf is shooting the cannon recklessly at them, and MISSING at that range. This is your battle-ready Klingon Tactical Officer. And he can't hit a dune buggy at 7 meters with a giant cannon.

    All that said, I disagree that this was "out of character" for Picard. Picard was a different man in the films than he was in the TV show. All people go through different phases of life and change as they grow older, and that's very natural. Picard was more wild and unrestrained when he was younger. He was more buttoned-up, disciplined and serious after the Starbase Earhart incident that caused him to nearly die. I've always felt that Picard started to change subtly in the later seasons of TNG, and was impacted significantly by the events of Star Trek Generations. The Picard we find in FC through NEM is different, and continuing to evolve. He is more comfortable with himself, and has allowed himself less restraint.

    NEM is a flawed film, but I've never agreed that Picard was out of character. In fact, I think he's depicted very realistically as someone whose personality and values have developed and changed over time, just like real people always do.
     
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  6. Damian

    Damian Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, I agree there. Picard's gradual evolution was one consistent theme in the 4 TNG films. I actually found some elements in Nemesis where we did actually see a bit of the old Picard. His early meetings with Schinzon, where the old diplomat we remember from the series came out for a time (which would be natural--he is still who he is at his core). His speech to Schinzon about nothing would make him prouder than to reach his hand in friendship---that one of the Federation's highest ideals is that all races are created equal (or something to that effect) was classic Jean-Luc Picard. But otherwise his presentation in Nemesis was wholly in keeping with the trend in the 4 films.

    But, to get back on track, while I liked Nemesis, I too didn't care too much for the Kolarus scenes, or much of the B-4 storyline. It did seem a ham-handed attempt to say that maybe Data isn't really dead. I don't oppose the idea of B-4 totally, but feel that part of the story could have been handled better. The Kolarus scenes seemed a waste of time. When the 'leader' of the Kolaran's (or whatever they are called) lifted his sunglasses as the shuttle lifted off I thought there was some hidden meaning there (the way he did it almost seemed like he had that 'things went exactly according to plan' look)--somehow we would learn later they had some other function to play---but they were never seen again.

    I compared it to the bike scene on Beyond because that scene seemed ridiculous as well. Like Picard, Kirk was riding a motor vehicle at unsafe velocities and there was random shootings and action sequences going on. Not so much 'storyline' wise--as the circumstances of both scenes were very different. But from a film-making perspective. That the film-makers thought it would look 'cool' to have our hero speed around in action vehicles while other people were randomly shooting at things. That's the similarity I saw.
     
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  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    I think this is the part that makes me go this is out of character for Picard. He is the pinacle of the Prime Directive and completely throws it out the window in this "cool" scene.
    Personally, this is where I will disagree. Largely because the "riding at unsafe velocities" was established as a part of Kirk's character in 2009, as well as his familiarity with such a vehicle. Unlike Picard, which felt very forced, the scene in Beyond was one that felt like it fit the character.
     
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  8. Rahul

    Rahul Commodore Commodore

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    I think the biggest sin of the dune buggy chase scene is that it eats away precious screen time from the movies' real main conflict.

    It's essentially like a James Bond cold open - an action scene that has nothing to do with the main plot and is purely there to show off a little action - just that it's about one third into the main movie. Time that's now wasted on a secondary villain that's totally irrelevant, we know nothing about and never hear again from. This whole time should have been used to flesh out the movies main villains and plotlines better.

    And I think because this scene is so useless, the complains start to add up. On a surface level, I have absolutely no problem with Star Trek using wheeled vehicles for planet exploration. That's fine. And hell, the very principled Picard suddenly loving dune buggy driving? That was even kinda' funny for how absurd it was. However, this scene doesn't add anything to the plot of the movie, the conflict, the characters, not even the atmosphere or real excitement. It just wastes your time until the "real" movie begins. That's IMO why every single minor problem with this scene gets scrutinized that much.
     
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  9. Damian

    Damian Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, I do agree there. While I'm one of a select few that liked Nemesis overall--that whole sequence just seemed a waste of time. There had to be better ways to get B-4 on the ship. I would have kept that scene out and kept some of the deleted scenes in that actually added something to the story.
     
  10. pst

    pst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    nemesis is one of the worst films (if not the worst film) in the star trek catalogue. i love it. but there is nothing in picard's character over (then) 15 years of development that indicated he was some kind of off-roading junky.

    to answer @Vger23's original prompt:

    i went into star trek 2009 with a lot of trepidation. i thought i wanted star trek to be dark and gritty and realistic. i was heavily into nolan's dark knight films and battlestar galactica at the time, i expected star trek to follow that trend. and it went in the complete opposite direction and it's better for it. star trek 2009 is the precursor to all the colorful, energetic, effervescent genre films we're inundated with today. it wasn't what i thought i wanted back then, but it's what i want more of today. these three films aren't perfect by any means, but i absolutely love them -- character, story, design, action, music, it all works for me.
     
  11. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Commodore Commodore

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    Like a dune buggy!



    PS: Didn't see all the other dune buggy references before, but hey, you can never have enough of Mr. Picard's Wild Ride.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  12. Admiral Archer

    Admiral Archer Commander Red Shirt

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    To understand my sheer disdain for "Star Trek Beyond", one needs some context. I ADORE the first two Kelvinverse movies. "Star Trek" (2009) was in my opinion the best and only way to bring Star Trek back from the dead, and it did so with amazing style and class, bringing Leonard Nimoy back and setting the new film series in a parallel universe to make fans feel comfortable with the changes, while simultaneously making the series accessible to mainstream audiences for the first time since TNG went off the air. And yet, somehow "Into Darkness" managed to top it in my book. The second Kelvinverse movie improved on every aspect of the first film, as well as introducing nods to so much of Trek history, such as: TMP style uniforms for the planetside officers, the Vengeance (which might as well have been the Kelvinverse USS Excelsior), Carol Marcus (who we all know as the mother of Kirk's son in the prime timeline), and last but not least, friggin' KHAN. I understand the complaints about Khan suddenly being a white guy, but Benedict Cumberbatch brought the character to a new level for me (I am going to make a controversial statement here: I'm not a big fan of Khan, or Star Trek II, in the prime timeline). The twist at the end with Kirk and Spock swapping places in the sacrifice to save the ship was GENIUS. After so much wonderful amazingness, how could the Kelvinverse go wrong?

    The short answer is, it can and it did. Beyond was a bland, boring, over the top mess with stupid cliches and throwbacks to the very worst parts of Trek lore. They manage to screw up the uniforms so badly that they don't even look like Star Trek uniforms anymore, and Yorktown takes the cake for the most bloated, ridiculous Starbase design and the most loud and obnoxious Christmas-music sounding theme. And let me be clear: after Search for Spock, it should be ILLEGAL to blow up the Enterprise. It was WRONG in Generations, and it is WRONG in Beyond. We barely got two movies with this ship, and already they trash her. The movie gets boring as all get out after the Enterprise is destroyed, and I could care less about what happens later on. The story could have made me care, but ultimately it didn't. It doesn't matter how high the stakes are, if your audience doesn't FEEL something, then you know you have a problem. This, coupled with the launch of an Enterprise-A that feels more like insult added to injury rather than a reward to Kirk and co. for saving the galaxy, and the fact that THIS was what they planned for the 50th anniversary of the greatest Sci-fi series of all time, just really rubs me the wrong way.

    Maybe my hopes were too high. Maybe I got dangerously excited because the first two Kelvinverse films are so bloody BRILLIANT (In my rankings, Into Darkness and Star Trek 2009 are third and fourth place respectively after TMP and First Contact). But to end this film series on such a low note, was a huge disappointment. At least after Nemesis we got a new direction for Star Trek on the big screen. Where do we go from here?

    Ah, well. At least Discovery is amazing, and Picard is looking to be a nostalgia trip. It would just be nice if we could have some Star Trek movies to go see every few years at least.
     
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  13. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    Not seeing a clear direction for discussion to take here. It's more of a stand-alone blog entry — beginning and ending within the same post — than it is the beginning of a conversation. It would probably fit well enough as a post in the "Then and Now - Kelvinverse Movies" thread, though, so I'll merge this with that.
     
  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    The uniforms look very similar to the Enterprise uniforms on Discovery? This point (never mind the rest) makes no sense. :wtf:

    I mean, I love the uniforms from the first two films and thought they could not really be topped, save for an adjustment to the dress uniform. But, the Beyond uniforms, as well as the Starbase uniforms, really appeal to me, and showcase the diversity of Starfleet uniforms, rather than just one uniform for all missions like TOS often fell back upon.
     
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  15. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yorktown was one of the most spectacular and imaginative designs in all of Trek's 50+ years. That anyone can think otherwise is bewildering.

    Seriously. I want to live there.
     
  16. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Enterprise uniforms look great and the survival jackets (or whatever they were supposed to be) were super cool. I wasn't too fond of the Yorktown uniforms (weirdly Ghostbusters-ish) or the USS Franklin ones (which looked far too much like the Yorktown unis). There were also some cool touches like Scotty wearing Captain Edison's USS Franklin jacket over his redshirt.
     
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  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    I did like that touch. Survival jackets were also among my favorite new designs of the Kelvin uniforms, which has had a great variety of good uniform designs.
    I'd move there in a heartbeat.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
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  18. Galileo7

    Galileo7 Commodore Commodore

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    Then, before I saw Star Trek 2009, I was prepared for the worse...


    However, I immediately then, upon seeing 2009, and now, am still extremely grateful that we have 2009, Into Darkness and Beyond of the J.J. Star Trek trilogy.
     
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  19. Smellmet

    Smellmet Commodore Commodore

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    How can something be bland, boring and over the top?

    Do tell - what 'worst parts' would these be? I thought it was pretty respectful of TOS, and out of the three films was by far closest in spirit to it.

    Highly subjective opinion, but for the record I do prefer the uniforms from the first two as I thought they resembled the originals closer. I wouldn't say for a second that they 'screwed them up'

    I thought Yorktown was absolutely stunning, and among some of the best visuals I've seen in a blockbuster in recent years.

    I kind of agree with you to a point - it wasn't really necessary to see the Enterprise destroyed here, especially after the beating it took in the previous movie. One thing that these films have lacked as a decent ship battle - but, the enterprise destruction in Beyond was so very well done, exciting and hit the right emotional beats with Kirk seeing the saucer go down from his escape pod (with the best bit of score in the entire trilogy), so it gets a pass from me.

    The middle act of Beyond is it's weakest aspect, with the motorcycle scene and Jayla fight being particularly dull in my view.

    I don't see why you have a problem with the launch of the A - it's already been this way in trek movies before - what would you have preferred to see?
     
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  20. captainkirk

    captainkirk Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ST09: Loved it then, would rank it as my 2nd favorite movie of all time now.
    STID: I was one of the few people actually surprised by the Khan reveal. I thought it was better than ST09, and I still do, but it's not quite the same brilliant standalone movie that the first one is.
    STB: I was a little underwhelmed when I first saw it. I can't see what the point of telling that story was. I'm still glad that they did because there was a lot to enjoy, but I haven't had much of a desire to revisit it.
     
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