Then and Now- Kelvinverse Movies

[Nyotarules]

ST09: watched it twice when it came out, the actors did a great job reviving TOS characters, and kudos to JJ for having the guts to destroy a major Federation power and kill Lady Amanda...wow! (I would have destroyed Earth ..evil laughter lol). Apart from the ending with the rapid promotions (roll my eyes, Starfleet must be desparate moment), it was the best of the three revivals.

STID - the funniest Star Trek movie ever! The TWOK homage had me laughing with embarrasment, the 'my name is Khan' line...leave him as super augment John Harrison or even Joachin would be better, but skin bleached Khan with a facelift? However the plot of (another) crazy Starfleet admiral starting trouble was a good twist (why are the mad Admirals always human???), the addition of Dr. Carol Marcus was a good idea, but its not one I rush to watch when its on T.V

STB - good for one thing only...Jaylah and Yorktown (ok that's two things)., but did they have to do another revenge movie????

Then above views were held then and now

 

[fireproof78]

Starfleet must be desparate moment

They just lost seven ships with all hands, as well as an entire member world.

I'd call that desperate.

 

[Nyotarules]

They just lost seven ships with all hands, as well as an entire member world.

I'd call that desperate.

Well there must only be 5 ships left to defend a UFP with a population in the trillions lol

 

[fireproof78]

Well there must only be 5 ships left to defend a UFP with a population in the trillions lol

Since we don't know the casualties of Nero's attack on Earth, as well as how big Starfleet actually is I would say that all we can do is speculate. But, given how often the Enterprise is the only ship in range in all the other series I am going to say that Starfleet isn't that big.

Regardless, wiping out entire crews of ships, including senior officers, is going to create several holes in operations.

 

[Nyotarules]

Since we don't know the casualties of Nero's attack on Earth, as well as how big Starfleet actually is I would say that all we can do is speculate. But, given how often the Enterprise is the only ship in range in all the other series I am going to say that Starfleet isn't that big.

Regardless, wiping out entire crews of ships, including senior officers, is going to create several holes in operations.

It will, so it made more sense to make Spock captain rather than Kirk, get the reservists to enrol full time, pull people out of retirement or 'encourage' troops from local planetary forces to join Starfleet. If Starfleet is the defensive arm of the UFP it needs to be bigger than the whole of Earth forces combined, personnel should in the millions.

 

[fireproof78]

It will, so it made more sense to make Spock captain rather than Kirk, get the reservists to enrol full time, pull people out of retirement or 'encourage' troops from local planetary forces to join Starfleet.

I do agree on the Spock part rather than Kirk. It is a stretch for Kirk to be captain, specifically of the Enterprise, but it's one I can buy with the state of the Fleet, and Marcus' warhawk approach being showcased in the next film.

 

[F. King Daniel]

People bringing their 2009 problems into 2019 again.

Kelvin Trek treats ship positions like job titles not military ranks. Roll with it or don't. Into Darkness even spells out that Kirk had Golden Boy status from Pike, who "saw greatness" in him and gave him the Enterprise.

 

[YouAreDooomed]

Yeah, the whole motorbike thing was a bit dopey as well. Why would the captain of a starship have a motorbike on board anyway?

To cover a ton of ground on away missions? Any kind of realistic landing force for a space quasi-military would have some kind of vehicle.

Hmm, maybe. Though I remember Nemesis got a lot of flak for the Argo scenes on Kolarus.

The Argo buggy doesn't make sense. Relatively slow, no protection or storage capacity, limited by natural barriers etc. Why not just use a shuttle?
I don't think the motorbike is on the ship for away missions but basically for the same reason Archer has a water polo ball and his dog, to boost morale and for recreational/ sentimental purposes. Besides, it doesn't occupy that much space anyway.

ST09: watched it twice when it came out, the actors did a great job reviving TOS characters, and kudos to JJ for having the guts to destroy a major Federation power and kill Lady Amanda...wow!

JJ did NOT write the script. After seeing SW 7 I'm glad he didn't.
That's why it's also kind of nonsensical to call it "JJTrek" or "Abramsverse".

STB - good for one thing only...Jaylah and Yorktown (ok that's two things)., but did they have to do another revenge movie????

Krall's motivation isn't revenge. He believes that humanity needs struggle in order to make progress.

 

[Ovation]

JJ did NOT write the script. After seeing SW 7 I'm glad he didn't.
That's why it's also kind of nonsensical to call it "JJTrek" or "Abramsverse".

No. It makes sense. Unlike TV, where directors are essentially “hired guns”, a film director is the author of the film and has considerable freedom to alter a script as he or she sees fit. Moreover, the director is the main guiding force regarding the tone of the film. In TV, head writers are often also producers and they, not directors, set the tone and direction for the show

 

[Lance]

While I can see the complaints around ST ID, and my rose-tint has faded a bit, this part will never cease to amaze. Blood therapies are a real thing. I don't understand the objection...

I don't have an objection, except inasmuch as I'm wondering how it affects Kirk going forward. Does he have superhero tendencies now? And what about McCoy's Tribble, does that become a super Tribble?

 

[YouAreDooomed]

No. It makes sense. Unlike TV, where directors are essentially “hired guns”, a film director is the author of the film and has considerable freedom to alter a script as he or she sees fit. Moreover, the director is the main guiding force regarding the tone of the film. In TV, head writers are often also producers and they, not directors, set the tone and direction for the show

I know that movie directors generally have more scope, sometimes they even set the key points but not in this case. Abrams was the translator of what was given him by Kurtzman, Orci (and Lindelof).

__Wired.com: __ J.J. Abrams was originally just going to produce Star Trek. I guess your script convinced him he needed to direct?

__Orci: __J.J.'s not a Star Trek fanatic by any means. We figured if we came up with a story that interested him as a casual fan....

__Kurtzman: __ It was secretly our agenda to hook in J.J. so that he couldn't say no.

Wired.com: Besides sharing by now a creative shorthand with Abrams, why was it so important to get him to direct Star Trek?

Kurtzman: What we get from J.J. directing Trek is 100 percent translation from script to scene. An epic space adventure is something not a lot of directors can handle.

https://www.wired.com/2008/10/star-trek-write/

Q: How big a decision was it to do Star Trek and how did it go?

J.J. ABRAMS: [...]The decision to do it was a big one, but I read the script and as a guy who really, I liked Star Trek, but I was never the rabid fan, it was really just that Alex and Bob wrote a great script and that I felt like I would be so agonizingly envious of whoever stepped in and directed the movie and I just thought I've got to direct this.

Q: When the strike ended, did you use the opportunity to do any little tweaks on the script?

ABRAMS: You know, when the strike was over we did more… I felt freer to do that, but the truth is I was making changes while we were shooting as a director. I wasn't rewriting, but you get to a script and you go, 'But this line doesn't make sense here.' So, I wasn't rewriting, but I was directing.

https://web.archive.org/web/20081018234327/http://uk.movies.ign.com/articles/874/874629p1.html

You can't tell me that it was his decision to include things like blowing up Romulus.
In contrast to the story, the characters, and the dialogues the "tone" of a film is quite abstract. Not that I claim JJ didn't contribute anything, he was just not the driving force behind the content the Kelvin movies.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't have an objection, except inasmuch as I'm wondering how it affects Kirk going forward. Does he have superhero tendencies now? And what about McCoy's Tribble, does that become a super Tribble?

Not sure what superhero tendencies would happen? I mean, did Harwood's daughter get superpowers too?

You can't tell me that it was his decision to include things like blowing up Romulus.
In contrast to the story, the characters, and the dialogues the "tone" of a film is quite abstract. Not that I claim JJ didn't contribute anything, he was just not the driving force behind the content the Kelvin movies.

Not sure what is defined by "content" here, since Abrams' was the driving force of using real locations, vs. all sets. He also states in the quote you gave that he was "tweaking" things as he went along, due to them "not making sense" in the script as written.

Never mind his contribution to the pacing of the film, the costuming, the sets, the delivery of the actors. His contribution to tone is part of that driving force within the film itself.

 

[YouAreDooomed]

Yeah, he was directing which, needless to say, includes taking care of sets, actors, and stuff. Just because he tweaked some lines ("I wasn't rewriting, but I was directing") doesn't change the fact that the essential storyline(s), the whole idea of the alternate Kelvin universe etc. ("content") was provided by other people. For that reason, I think it's inappropriate to name the Kelvin movies after JJA.

 

[fireproof78]

think it's inappropriate to name the Kelvin movies after JJA.

Since it isn't named for Abrams, but used as a nickname I don't see the issue.

 

[BigJake]

I'm curious to hear from people how their reactions to the Kelvinverse movies were when they premiered vs. how we feel about them now, with the passage of time. I know opinions and perceptions nearly always change with the passage of time...I figured it would be interesting to poll everyone and see where we stand!

Star Trek
In 2009, I was baffled by this movie. I went to see it in the theatre and it seemed so aggressively stupid to me that I felt -- amidst all the praise it was garnering -- like I was taking crazy pills. I'm one of those people who came to be on TrekBBS specifically because I came here to talk to other fans about it and try to figure out what I was missing (or, let's face it, just complain about it).

In 2019, my opinion has mellowed a lot. I recognize the movie is full of ideas that are interesting on paper whose execution I just didn't care for (like the way the plot is patterned after Jules Verne's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea), that its thrill factor is a big part of its positive reception (one of the few virtues of the film I was also able to appreciate at the time), that its alt-timeline conceit actually works pretty well, and that its plot contrivances and the Muppet Baby-ish nature of its getting-the-gang-together aspects understandably don't overwhelm its positive aspects for a lot of viewers. I couldn't tell you I like it, I don't go out of my way to watch it, but I can fully honour the role it played in bringing Trek back to the forefront of entertainment, particularly since it has ultimately led to televised Trek that I really do admire, flaws and all (DSC).

Star Trek: Into Darkness
At the time when it first screened, it seemed like borderline-unwatchable, incoherent drivel. It still does. At least I made it all the way through this film once; something I still can't say for The Final Frontier, which is the only Star Trek film I'd rate lower. That Spock's Khaaaaan! moment makes for decent comedy is mostly a measure of the poverty of the film wrapped around it.

Star Trek: Beyond
At first screening, this was the first Kelvin timeline film I could honestly say I enjoyed without reservation. It's the only one of the three films I own and I still watch and enjoy it (though the villain's motivation feels a little on the thin side and the revisiting of the Beastie Boys thing a little cheesy in retrospect), and I personally tend to rank it as the best of the Kelvin films. Apparently I'm not a member of the most profitable audience, given its ultimate box-office performance, but whatever.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Apart from the ending with the rapid promotions (roll my eyes, Starfleet must be desparate moment), it was the best of the three revivals.

STID - the funniest Star Trek movie ever! The TWOK homage had me laughing with embarrasment, the 'my name is Khan' line...leave him as super augment John Harrison or even Joachin would be better, but skin bleached Khan with a facelift?

People bringing their 2009 problems into 2019 again.

Kelvin Trek treats ship positions like job titles not military ranks. Roll with it or don't. Into Darkness even spells out that Kirk had Golden Boy status from Pike, who "saw greatness" in him and gave him the Enterprise.

But all that just looked plain weird afterwards. Uhura, Chekov, Sulu all were made chief officers on the ship. For some reason, Chekov is the one put in charge of engineering after Scotty leaves. Scotty had no assistant chief or more experienced engineers?

And Sulu--- in the 2009 movie he was a nervous cadet who needed help getting the ship into warp. In the next movie just one year later he is put in charge of the ship after Kirk and Spock leaves.

All the senior officers and dept heads used to be cadets or at least newly commissioned just one year earlier. It didn't really acknowledge it much, just like the Khan thing.

 

[Nyotarules]

Not sure what superhero tendencies would happen? I mean, did Harwood's daughter get superpowers too?

She lived to 300 and was never sick again...

 

[Nyotarules]

People bringing their 2009 problems into 2019 again.

This is a thread about perceptions of the movie, good, bad or indifferent, not an Amen corner on the films, so posts are not 'problems'. You seem to have a problem with other people's 'problem'.

Kelvin Trek treats ship positions like job titles not military ranks. Roll with it or don't. Into Darkness even spells out that Kirk had Golden Boy status from Pike, who "saw greatness" in him and gave him the Enterprise.

I choose not to. A professional organisation that is built to fight other armies, wars and defend planets needs to treat such posts as ranks and not job titles, it took some of us out of the movie. Kirk can have 'greatnesss' and 'potential' without being a Captain within 5 years of joining Starfleet, might as well advertise the post on the UFP website for all and sundry to apply. If they ever reboot the TOS crew again, I hope the writers do not treat the audience as idiots.
Might as well write an episode of a sci fi General Hospital where student doctor ends up being Chief of Surgery because she/he saves the planet from a deadly plague..

 

[fireproof78]

And Sulu--- in the 2009 movie he was a nervous cadet who needed help getting the ship into warp. In the next movie just one year later he is put in charge of the ship after Kirk and Spock leaves.

Nervous cadet? Did we watch the same movie? He simply didn't get one system right, as Spock noted. Sulu was not demonstrated to be a cadet but a replacement of Helsman McKenna, as demonstrated by the dialog of the scene.

I choose not to. A professional organisation that is built to fight other armies, wars and defend planets needs to treat such posts as ranks and not job titles, it took some of us out of the movie. Kirk can have 'greatnesss' and 'potential' without being a Captain within 5 years of joining Starfleet,

On the one hand, I can kind of see the point. On the other hand, Star Trek has repeatedly demonstrated the tendency to have characters static in their roles and ranks.

 

[YouAreDooomed]

Since it isn't named for Abrams, but used as a nickname I don't see the issue.

It fuels the myth that Abrams did all the creative work.
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Kirk has joined Starfleet about 8 years before the events of STB, he gets the opportunity to become Vice Admiral, which is not only fast but would also skip Commodore and Rear Admiral. They just screwed up ranks.