The Walking Dead Season 6 Discussion

[sojourner]

Im calling the "Lucille" death right now. It will be Eugene. I examined the ground that was in front of the person that was getting their head bashed in and then rewound the video to where the entire group was sitting and the ground in front of the person that had barely any leaves in front was Eugene. The pov of the person getting his head bashed in didn't have many leaves in front of him so I believe it is Eugene. I figure Negan wont kill the women so they are all out. I think that Glenn is out because of the stupid dumpster incident. Carl and Rick are definitely safe as is Darry. That leaves Arron, Abraham and Eugene. So yeah its Eugene.

On the Talking Dead the producers said they filmed the scene knowing the fans would go all "Zapruder" on it. So don't put too much stock into what you might have inferred.

 

[davejames]

I still believe not showing the victim--or at least being clear about who was the victim--strings this along. For example, in "Too Far Gone," it would have been a cheat if The Governor raised the sword to strike Hershel, but it instantly cuts to reactions, the battle starts, and the mid season finale ends without really going back to see Hershel's fate. We only learn about it months later when 4 returned with "After," when Michonne finds Hershel's head. The build up to the Governor's act would be there, but the full horror of his being "Too Far Gone" would have been lost. The full effect of threat needed to be all there, not sometime (or for the audience, months) later.

Well yeah, but by that point the Governor had already been established as a serious threat and there wouldn't have been much to gain by holding back Hershel's death. And again, with whoever Negan chooses next season I expect the actual death to be just as horrific and hard to watch then as it would be now. I don't really see what difference it makes whether we get that "full horror" in this episode or the next. And the characters are still just as screwed either way.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The only interesting things in this episode happened with Morgan. His relationship with Carol, his killing (because yes... sometimes you have to) and most interestingly of all, those guys they met with the horses. I'm guessing they're Kingdom. I'm also guessing they will be Rick's best hope next season.

I too enjoyed Morgan and Carol's arc more than the Negan part; both are in a period of development, and being away from the entire Negan violence, i'm interested in seeing how they work with the Kingdom.

In retrospect, how dickish was it of Jesus to send Rick's group after this massive army? Thanks pal.

He was more interested in the Hilltop's survival than the risk ASZ would face, and as noted weeks ago--offered few details about the Saviors' size, or their propensity for sadism. However, Rick's group was foolish for thinking they could go after an entire group with what minimal evidence or direction provided, and not expect blowback. Then again, for all of their "we handle confrontation" lines, and past behavior against The Governor, the Claimers and Terminus, how did he emotionally break down in this finale--before Negan even indicated what was going to happen?

 

[Arrrrgggh]

Really!

Oh, wait, I see. You were trying for sarcasm with that previous post. Keep working on it. You'll get there.

Eh, it's not my fault you're one of those people who only reads what they want to read, rather than paying attention to what's actually being said. But by all means, feel free to act like it someone else's fault, not an inherent problem of your own.

 

[davejames]

So I wonder if this is really the end of the tough and badass Carol of before? Seems like it really has become too painful for her to kill anymore, and it's hard to imagine her ever going back to that life again...

 

[Arrrrgggh]

In retrospect, how dickish was it of Jesus to send Rick's group after this massive army? Thanks pal.

Did Jesus even really know how large they were? Up until this encounter with Rick's group, they've always been shown to operate in small, familiar packs. For all Jesus knew, the group at the observatory (or whatever it was) was Negan's entire group. They were certainly large enough and well geared enough to overwhelm Hilltop all by themselves.

Then there's also the fact that during all this time scavenging the region, Rick's group never ran into a massive army of them. So there's no real reason to assume Jesus would have ran into them, either, other than the small groups which easily could have been part of the same guys at the observatory.

So I wonder if this is really the end of the tough and badass Carol of before? Seems like it really has become too painful for her to kill anymore, and it's hard to imagine her ever going back to that life again...

She's pretty much Rambo exactly as he was in First Blood. Rocking the PTSD, but with her "old" self kicking back in when it needs to.

 

[TRON JA307020]

On the Talking Dead the producers said they filmed the scene knowing the fans would go all "Zapruder" on it. So don't put too much stock into what you might have inferred.

I read about that but you never know. Also Eugene has really sucked as a character lately and its time for him to leave. My second choice would be Abraham and then Aaron. I only put Aaron last because he would provide no shock value at all if he is the one being killed so I don't see the producers picking him. Eugene and Abraham would provide a little shock and set the story for the mains to mourn a bit. If not Eugene or Abraham the likeliest choice would obviously be Glenn if they decide to stick with the comics.

 

[Push The Button]

Rick was defiant at the Terminus kill floor because he thought they were all going to die there anyway, regardless. Why not tell hipster Gareth that you're going to hack him to pieces? You literally have nothing to lose, since you have already lost it.

Rick was obviously overwhelmed with what was happening during the Negan reveal, however keeping quiet was the smart move there. Negan was only going to kill one of them, and I'm sure that the rest of the group will be allowed safe passage once that is over, since they all "work" for him now. Any outburst of bravado by Rick or anyone else would probably have led to more of the group being killed.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Rick was defiant at the Terminus kill floor because he thought they were all going to die there anyway, regardless. Why not tell hipster Gareth that you're going to hack him to pieces? You literally have nothing to lose, since you have already lost it.

Rick was obviously overwhelmed with what was happening during the Negan reveal, however keeping quiet was the smart move there. Negan was only going to kill one of them, and I'm sure that the rest of the group will be allowed safe passage once that is over, since they all "work" for him now. Any outburst of bravado by Rick or anyone else would probably have led to more of the group being killed.

Actually Negan is more tolerant than Rick in some ways. RIck would have shot all the trouble makers in the head men and women with the "I don't take chances" b.s as an excuse. In some ways Rick is worse than Negan. While I thought the episode really could have been better and the cliffhanger sucked donkey balls I did enjoy Rick getting his comeuppance a bit.

 

[Trekker4747]

The butt-hurt people have over cliffhangers is astonishing to me.

"Who shot J.R.?"
"Mr. Worf... fire!"
"What's inside the hatch?" (probably the most equitable since it's a more recent TV series and it centers around something the show spent a good deal of time on in an arc during the season.)

So, really? This moment is going too far with the cliffhanger? Are people really that weak?

Anyway, interesting thing to note that throughout the episode we're given several POV shots of someone trapped in the van and then at the end we have the POV shot of the person meeting Lucile. So this, could, mean that the person killed would either be Daryl, Glenn, Sasha or Rosita; assuming there's a thread between the POV shots which if there isn't then it's sort of a directorial misstep or some *very* poor foreshadowing.

Actually Negan is more tolerant than Rick in some ways. RIck would have shot all the trouble makers in the head men and women with the "I don't take chances" b.s as an excuse. In some ways Rick is worse than Negan.

I think it's hard to say/know if Rick would shoot all of the trouble makers if the situation were reversed, maybe he would have. But if the situation were reversed Rick would be dealing with a group of people who've killed a great number of *his* people. Let's be honest, Negan would be "justified" in killing all of The Group given the sheer numbers they've killed of Saviors. But Negan doesn't want to kill them, he just wants to demoralize them and have them "work for him." So he only kills one person to make an example of them.

But, it's still foolish to think Rick's position is anywhere close to Negan's. Rick was, afterall, willing to recruit Jesus to their group after running into him on the road. He's only "not taking chances" in this circumstance given what they are facing. He's not going to around killing indiscriminately like Negan and the Saviors do; remember Negan's group are *still* the ones who target and kill other communities and extort them for supplies in exchange for "protection" ... from them.

So there's a world of difference between what Rick and The Group do when it comes to killing (in some manner of self defense) and what The Saviors do (kill as a show of force and manipulation.)

Killing is part of this world now, the only thing that really matters is *why* you kill; and killing in self defense is one thing (and the raid on the Saviors' cable/satellite station *was* a form of self-defense) but killing as a show of power (what The Saviors do) is something else entirely.

 

[Akiraprise]

Here's the thing. It's NOT a cliffhanger. That's why a lot of people are pissed off. I don't consider it one anyway.

A cliffhanger would have been if they hadn't told us ad nauseam that someone was going to die. If that whole scene had played out as it did and Negan says he is going to kill someone as pay back, swings Lucille back, and it cuts to black. That's a cliff hanger. Will he or will he not kill someone we like? What happened is he bashes someones head in. Someone is dead. We know it happened they just pussed out on telling us who it is under the guise of artistic suspense. It's not suspenseful anymore. It's annoying. All this hype the second half of the season and little payoff. Plus it's not some little fringe element of the fandom that feels this way. Almost every review (a couple below) I've read agrees and a lot of the comments on FBook and around the web say that this finale was a let down for this reason while praising the introduction of Negan.

Forbes Review
Yahoo Review
AV Club Review

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Who shot JR? isn't that far from Who did JR shoot?

 

[Push The Button]

Actually Negan is more tolerant than Rick in some ways. RIck would have shot all the trouble makers in the head men and women with the "I don't take chances" b.s as an excuse. In some ways Rick is worse than Negan. While I thought the episode really could have been better and the cliffhanger sucked donkey balls I did enjoy Rick getting his comeuppance a bit.

I'm not exactly sure when it happened, but I agree with you that Rick has taken more than a few steps into the dark side over the years. One foray that still sticks out for me is when he hits one of the Grady Memorial cops, who is unarmed and running away at the time, with a police cruiser, then kills him. His creepy obsession with Jessie also comes to mind.

Rick isn't a perfect leader by any measure, and it might be fair to say that he's been more lucky than smart.

 

[theenglish]

Get over defending his avoidance of a creative solution offered by other zombie productions, which--by the way--did not get in the way of the central point.

I would be willing to bet that any explanation as to why the zombies exist would be controversial at best. What would you prefer:

1. A government designed virus.
2. Alien invasion.
3. The result of something ancient released because of climate change.
4. God's will (my personal preference).

Really, any explanation will just cause more debate like it did with Lost or Battlestar Galactica.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Rick was defiant at the Terminus kill floor because he thought they were all going to die there anyway, regardless. Why not tell hipster Gareth that you're going to hack him to pieces? You literally have nothing to lose, since you have already lost it.

Rick was obviously overwhelmed with what was happening during the Negan reveal, however keeping quiet was the smart move there. Negan was only going to kill one of them, and I'm sure that the rest of the group will be allowed safe passage once that is over, since they all "work" for him now. Any outburst of bravado by Rick or anyone else would probably have led to more of the group being killed.

But Rick was overwhelmed in both cases; unless he expected the Saviors to start killing them on the spot, he should not have been so fearful (before Negan emerged from the RV), but threatening Gareth while waiting his turn at having his head smashed/throat slashed. The greater, apparent threat was his being placed in front of the slaughter trough--and witnessing the murders of Sam, et al., but his behavior is inconsistent with facing a filed full of Saviors who--up to that time--did not bring them to the edge of death.

I'm not exactly sure when it happened, but I agree with you that Rick has taken more than a few steps into the dark side over the years. One foray that still sticks out for me is when he hits one of the Grady Memorial cops, who is unarmed and running away at the time, with a police cruiser, then kills him. His creepy obsession with Jessie also comes to mind.

Various guests on Talking Dead have explored the idea that Rick is not so heroic, or is like Shane.

Actually Negan is more tolerant than Rick in some ways. RIck would have shot all the trouble makers in the head men and women with the "I don't take chances" b.s as an excuse. In some ways Rick is worse than Negan. While I thought the episode really could have been better and the cliffhanger sucked donkey balls I did enjoy Rick getting his comeuppance a bit.

Agreed. As Push The Button mentioned, Rick ran a car into Grady Memorial's Officer Lamson, breaking his back, then executing him, when stopping him did not required such violent, quick to kill reaction. His excuse for everything is about protecting himself/friends, and not once does he ever consider any true negotiations.

As Savior Paula said in "The Same Boat," Rick (and his group) are not the good guys.

 

[Trekker4747]

As Savior Paula said in "The Same Boat," Rick (and his group) are not the good guys.

Neither are the Saviors who, you know, steal from people and kill them if they don't have enough.

It was also the Savior 'Chelle who said that, not Paula.

 

[EmoBorg]

My view on the season 6 finale.

The last scene was long in my book. Negan was taking his God damn sweet time to decide whom to kill.

I guess it was written in that way so that the finale would be left in a climatic cliffhanger and we would watch the season 7 to find out who was killed.

But i did like Negan. Jeffrey Dean Morgan played it well. Negan reminds me of his Comedian Character in the Watchmen.

I was surprised by the size of Negan's group. Rick and Co took out alot of them in the preceding episodes But Negan still had plenty of men and women left.

If i was Negan i would have killed of all of Rick and Co for the murder of many of my people. I guess Negan was more practical. He needed people to replace the ones that he lost. But he had to kill one of them to show his authority and strength.

 

[Starkers]

Can anyone in TWD universe be 'good guys'? My own take has been for some time that Rick and co are just 'the better guys'. Who would you rather hook up with? The Governor? The Termites? The Wolves? Negan? Even at his worst Rick has always been a more decent man than those he's up against. The line has blurred on occasion I grant you, and by this point the margins have narrowed more than ever before--the midnight knife attack is about as close to crossing the line as they've got, and even having one of their victims collect polaroids of zombies doesn't help, anyone remember when Daryl collected ears?-- but I'd still rather take my chances as part of Rick's group than anyone else we've encountered so far (aside from Hilltop and they're effectively living under Negan's rule).

I noticed the library point as well. When Morgan was knifing the hanged man I thought he didn't look long dead, then the books inside was a dead giveaway.

That was a fantastic episode...until the end. It's an odd thing to say for a show about zombies, but that felt more like a horror film than the show usually does. There was a palpable sense of dread ratcheting up as the episode progressed that really did feel like one of those horror films where you know the heroes are all going to die. Maybe it's the RV but Race with the Devil really sprang to mind. The whistling was a hell of a creepy touch as well.

I don't read the comics so can't comment on Jeffrey Dean Morgan's portrayal compared to the comic character, but I thought his Negan was pretty darn scary, in part because he was charming, and yes he did have a bit of a point given how many of his men Rick and co have killed.

Not telling us who was killed was, as someone else has said, a dick move. A cheap trick that spoiled what should have been an awesome episode. It's not that I want to see Glenn or Michonne or Daryl beaten to death, but if that death is unavoidable this was the moment to get the most (pardon the pun) impact.

As for who dies, haven't the producers said it is a beloved character? That would seem to let Aaron or Rosita out (no offence to either character but they don't always get a lot to do) and similarly Abraham or Eugene. Rick is safe, and it looks like Carl is too (and frankly if you want to control Rick surely you don't kill his son in front of him, in fact if I were Negan I'd take Carl as a hostage). That leaves Michonne, Daryl, Maggie and Glenn. I don't want it to be Maggie or Glenn, and I'd rather it wasn't Michonne, so I'd actually go Daryl, because much as I love the character he has been a bit aimless of late.

But I don't have a say in things so I'm guessing its either Michonne or Glenn.

But hell is Negan making a fucking huge mistake in letting Rick live. (fantastic acting by Lincoln btw)

Do people think the producers even know who they want to off yet?

 

[Trekker4747]

Can anyone in TWD universe be 'good guys'?

Sure. We have to shift the notion of what a "good guy" is and it pretty much comes down to ancient, tribal, human stuff but there's still certainly a moral boundary. And killing in a manner of self defense is still better than killing people as a show of power and in order to rob them; robbing in of itself a moral boundary. Rick saw, and likely knows, his group has superior numbers, experience and weaponry to raid and take over The Hilltop but he'd rather work with them rather than take them over, so that puts our group over The Saviors who saw/found The Hilltop and chose to raid them and then control them.

anyone remember when Daryl collected ears?-

Well, they were walker ears and it was also in a moment of sort of losing his mind over trying to find Sophia and seeing the vision of his brother.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I get that there should be less zombies but there will still always be zombies, no matter how many years pass. At least until a cure is made.

In terms of the fact that this is a television show, sure. In terms of the logical progression of events, not necessarily. The zombies clearly do decay. Eventually the giant herds will disappear. Yes, new deaths can create new zombies, but informed communities can prevent that with ease. Destroying the brain simply becomes a standard part of the accepted funeral ritual. Once the threshold of the early wave of zombies is passed, the only zombies you should ever see would be from people who die alone (or die together with no survivors) or who are deliberately allowed to turn. Those scenarios seem relatively rare, and look likely to become even more rare as the zombie threat diminishes.

We saw that before at Terminus. "They're screwing with the wrong people." A great moment that promised great things. And then it was totally subverted next season when they were totally helpless after all and Carol had to rescue them. I don't mind seeing something different this time.

How is it that the Saviors were able to pinpoint their movements so exactly? Cutting off all the roads is one thing. But Negan wasn't fooled for one second by the ruse with the RV. He knew exactly where they left the road on foot and knew exactly where they'd come out of the woods on the other side — to the extent that he had a fleet of vehicles, trailers, cargo containers, floodlights, etc. waiting for them. A bit convenient, what?

The impression I got was that Eugene doesn't hold up well to interrogation. He told them (maybe without even realizing it) roughly where to look. The saviors may also have, by this point, come to the realization that Rick's group was attempting to reach Hilltop, which would make it much easier for them to deduce what paths were most likely. Combined with the fact that Rick et al where on foot while the saviors had the benefit of cars and radio coordination, I don't see any problem with the idea that they could get everyone in the right general area of the woods - after which, they used their apparently well honed tactics to herd their victims where they wanted them.

Very true. A Savior must have been behind every tree in the forest. I was willing to give all that a pass though, until it hit me - Ricks group has been living in this area for a while now while Negan has had such a huge group living right under their noses, with so little or no contact until now? It don't add up. Same goes for the Hilltop group too, for that matter.

They've been living in Alexandria for a few months at most and Hilltop was actually stated to be quite far away - the Saviors presumably even farther away (Darryl drove something like 40-50 miles in a roughly straight line before that first encounter with them). This isn't a case of people sitting right next door to each other, it's a case of slowly expanding spheres of influence. There's no reason at all they have to encounter each other according to any set timeline, because there are dozens of factors at play (like which direction they're expanding in, how far apart their bases are, how often they go out, etc).

The butt-hurt people have over cliffhangers is astonishing to me.

"Who shot J.R.?"
"Mr. Worf... fire!"
"What's inside the hatch?" (probably the most equitable since it's a more recent TV series and it centers around something the show spent a good deal of time on in an arc during the season.)

So, really? This moment is going too far with the cliffhanger? Are people really that weak?

You're right that What's in the Hatch is the best comparison to make - the others really don't line up at all. As it happens, what's in the hatch was also a completely crappy copout of a cliffhanger. As was every other instance of the same dumb trope that's been used in other shows. (For instance, the recent Gotham cliffhanger in which Bruce spends an entire arc leading up to the finale trying to break into his dad's secret room, and then the cliffhanger is nothing more than the door finally opening.)