The Walking Dead Season 6 Discussion

[RJDiogenes]

Not that I can remember, but that doesn't really mean anything. A lot has happened since the Apocalypse.

Plus we don't know what Glenn went through before meeting Rick in Atlanta.

 

[Trekker4747]

The question around the bar tonight is -- "Has Glenn ever killed a Human?" I ask the brain trust...

This was pointed out a few weeks ago on a The Talking Dead episode with Glenn's "death" by a guest and was a "trivia tidbit" this past week. Glenn is the only character from the original Atlanta group to have never killed a human being, and aside from Tara and Father Gabriel (whose deaths were indirect) this extends to the current crop of Non-Alexandrian characters as well.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The question around the bar tonight is -- "Has Glenn ever killed a Human?" I ask the brain trust...

This was pointed out a few weeks ago on a The Talking Dead episode with Glenn's "death" by a guest and was a "trivia tidbit" this past week. Glenn is the only character from the original Atlanta group to have never killed a human being, and aside from Tara and Father Gabriel (whose deaths were indirect) this extends to the current crop of Non-Alexandrian characters as well.

In "Nebraska," didn't he finally shoot one of Randall's gang in the alley? Or one on the grass who fell and became screaming walker food?

Firstly, he needed bodies, that's all. Had there been an opportunity to do this without any of them, he would have. Secondly, you're arguing that he needed to be persuaded... to trust them? That alone ought to tell you that he... did not trust them.

I specifically said he flip flopped because in the S6 premiere, he clearly trusted them (again, no one would risk his own life in a dangerous operation, if he did not trust them), only to mistrust them six episodes later--again, that makes him a flip flopping "leader." Either he trusts them, or he does not, but it is clear he did at the beginning of the season.

Luck does not exist?

Do you have evidence to provide proving it does?

So when Negan comes along (having never done so before, that wouldn't strike you as a matter of luck?) Alexandria clearly did get extremely lucky. Unless you're suggesting that they brilliantly fought off numerous enemies?

This is the ZA world. No group or organization has fully escaped some sort of conflict, whether it was Woodbury, Terminus, Grady Memorial, Noah's neighborhood, Joe or Randall's gangs, and yes, Rick's group.

In the time it took to plan a self-sustaining system of electricity, water/waste management and erect walls, do you really think that area never encountered any threats, with endless armies of walkers knowing no borders?

Do you think the mass numbers of walkers on the road and at the quarry (S6 premiere) just popped into existence at that time, and nothing of any size ever found their way toward Alexandria.

That would be stretching credibility--even for a show about cannibalistic zombies.

I think you might be slightly over egging the pudding there. One suspects that they would have ultimately come through their crisis' without Gabriel. The idea that he "restored" Maggie's faith is sweet though.

Your suspicion is incorrect, since the point of Gabriel's reaching out was due to the fact Sasha found no solace anywhere else. Left on her own, she was uttlerly lost--angry, depressed and laying in a pit of walkers because she felt as dead as the walkers.

Did you forget how she snapped at Abraham, and repeatedly barked at Michonne? No one--other than Gabriel was going to address what she needed. Survivalist blather meant nothing to a soul in trouble / hurt by death. That was the point of the prayer scene, otherwise there would no point in scripting / shooting it.

No one doubts Gabriel's beliefs. It's not about his beliefs though, it's about his character.

Character leads someone to help a person who cannot be helped by "toughen up," survivalist blather. Reaching out in that way--when he not have to--is a show of character.

It's not about being good with a weapon. I wouldn't expect Gabriel to be good with a weapon. It's about having the character not to run away when a zombie walks towards your friend. I simply don't believe Gabriel would NOT run away under those circumstances. He has the time to change that but right now, Rick is right to believe that he would cower in a corner while you're being ripped apart.

Rick tearing down his posters has nothing to do with that. Repeatedly acting like a hostile ass toward Gabriel accomplishes nothing, and he conveniently ignores how two of his valued members are better today because of Gabriel.

 

[hux]

I specifically said he flip flopped because in the S6 premiere, he clearly trusted them (again, no one would risk his own life in a dangerous operation, if he did not trust them), only to mistrust them six episodes later--again, that makes him a flip flopping "leader." Either he trusts them, or he does not, but it is clear he did at the beginning of the season.

Again, he has little option at that stage. Had there been an opportunity to deal with the problem without them, he would have taken that option. Rick trusts very few people and certainly hasn't shown anything resembling genuine trust regarding the residents of Alexandria.

Do you have evidence to provide proving it does?

Well let's see. There's the fact that Alexandria hadn't been attacked at all in any meaningful way throughout the entirety of the ZA and the fact that the prison was. There you go. The fact that the Alexandrians haven't had to fight to survive, kill anyone or even leave their homes would signify a degree of luck. Negan has obviously been around for some time but it seems clear that Alexandria hasn't ever had to deal with him before. That now looks like it's about to change; you would have to describe that as... a tad lucky.

This is the ZA world. No group or organization has fully escaped some sort of conflict, whether it was Woodbury, Terminus, Grady Memorial, Noah's neighborhood, Joe or Randall's gangs, and yes, Rick's group.

In the time it took to plan a self-sustaining system of electricity, water/waste management and erect walls, do you really think that area never encountered any threats, with endless armies of walkers knowing no borders?

Do you think the mass numbers of walkers on the road and at the quarry (S6 premiere) just popped into existence at that time, and nothing of any size ever found their way toward Alexandria.

That would be stretching credibility--even for a show about cannibalistic zombies.

Actually, that's exactly what seems to have occurred. WD stretches credibility on a regular basis. We just saw Glenn fall head away from a dumpster then land head near to the dumpster. While the walkers munched on Nicholas, Glenn apparently didn't interest them and we're happy to let him crawl away.

Your suspicion is incorrect, since the point of Gabriel's reaching out was due to the fact Sasha found no solace anywhere else. Left on her own, she was uttlerly lost--angry, depressed and laying in a pit of walkers because she felt as dead as the walkers.

Did you forget how she snapped at Abraham, and repeatedly barked at Michonne? No one--other than Gabriel was going to address what she needed. Survivalist blather meant nothing to a soul in trouble / hurt by death. That was the point of the prayer scene, otherwise there would no point in scripting / shooting it.

It's the zombie apocalypse. Everyone is traumatised and experiencing emotional stress. The idea that a crisis of faith is the prominent feature of their mental health problems is somewhat bizarre. At this point, anyone being willing to listen to you will be helpful. Eastman did the same thing for Morgan; brought him back from the brink and provided solace but the difference is, Eastman wasn't selling God or gaining a purpose for himself in the process.

Character leads someone to help a person who cannot be helped by "toughen up," survivalist blather. Reaching out in that way--when he not have to--is a show of character.

But he does have to. Being the spiritual centre of the community, it's only source of compassion and Godliness is what gives him a purpose in that community. I'm not suggesting his beliefs are false but there is an element of him gaining from that role as much as there is by him giving in that role.

Rick tearing down his posters has nothing to do with that. Repeatedly acting like a hostile ass toward Gabriel accomplishes nothing, and he conveniently ignores how two of his valued members are better today because of Gabriel.

He simply wants the good priest to know that he's still in Rick's bad books. Gabriel is not irredeemable but clearly has work to do to convince Rick that he isn't just a charlatan. A prayer meeting isnt going to do that especially when it isn't a priority right now. Rick has a history of keeping people at arms length when he feels they're more trouble than they're worth but he also has a history of bringing them into the fold when they prove him wrong. Gabriel might well become one of those people but he's got a long way to go.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Again, he has little option at that stage. Had there been an opportunity to deal with the problem without them, he would have taken that option. Rick trusts very few people and certainly hasn't shown anything resembling genuine trust regarding the residents of Alexandria.

Maybe not being a hostile asshole would help. Abraham managed to get

Do you have evidence to provide proving it does?

Well let's see. There's the fact that Alexandria hadn't been attacked at all in any meaningful way throughout the entirety of the ZA and the fact that the prison was.

You're making my point: that's not luck. With the walker threat all across the country, there's no "lucky" set up or place. You do realize it took time to set up Alexandria? Pre-ZA, they did not have steel walls and a stocked armory the day before. That took time to build / acquire, respectively, and during that time, there's no way--based on the walker patterns seen in all five previous seasons--that Alexandria just avoided it all.

WD stretches credibility on a regular basis. We just saw Glenn fall head away from a dumpster then land head near to the dumpster. While the walkers munched on Nicholas, Glenn apparently didn't interest them and we're happy to let him crawl away.

It's not like he just got on his feet, brushed himself off and walked away, saying "excuse me, fellas. Oh, there's a leg over there, don't forget that." Walkers are frenzy feeders, so when they had their target (Nicholas), they ignored Glenn long enough for him to inch his way under the dumpster. He was not completely safe, since an additional minute would have reduced Nicholas to something less than food, with Glenn next on the menu. Even as it played out, walkers were reaching under the dumpster to get Glenn, so his escape was not the credibility-buster that the 100% Alexandria theory is.

It's the zombie apocalypse. Everyone is traumatised and experiencing emotional stress. The idea that a crisis of faith is the prominent feature of their mental health problems is somewhat bizarre. At this point, anyone being willing to listen to you will be helpful.

No, one can easily argue that in TWD, a crisis of faith happens when said faith is weakened by events the individual cannot process to varying degrees, couled with what were once separate events like death of loved ones. Hershel faced this in the conversation with Rick & Glenn in the town bar ("Nebraska"). But he came around to know that what was happening was not an attack on or weakness of what guides faith, but another experience his faith would allow him to endure.

He--like Sasha, Maggie and Beth (recall Beth trying to kill herself in season 2) were just the first of a generation to face this new attack on survival and the very meaning of life.


Eastman did the same thing for Morgan; brought him back from the brink and provided solace but the difference is, Eastman wasn't selling God or gaining a purpose for himself in the process. [/quote]

Gabriel already had a purpose--long before the ZA, but his own beliefs had to go through the same test that hit the aforementioned characters before.

But he does have to. Being the spiritual centre of the community, it's only source of compassion and Godliness is what gives him a purpose in that community. I'm not suggesting his beliefs are false but there is an element of him gaining from that role as much as there is by him giving in that role.

If he's truly a spiritual person, there's really nothing to be gained from his end in the sense of an advantage; either some want to be receptive to ministering, or they will not. If he's truly a spiritual person, it is his job to minister to others, however, if he was the last man on earth, he would have his own spiritual study and application to life.

He already knows there will be more like Nicholas, Aiden or Gareth (and crew) who created their own world rules, and will forever be oil to his water, but he loses no greater purpose by not reaching everyone around him.

Rick tearing down his posters has nothing to do with that. Repeatedly acting like a hostile ass toward Gabriel accomplishes nothing, and he conveniently ignores how two of his valued members are better today because of Gabriel.

He simply wants the good priest to know that he's still in Rick's bad books. Gabriel is not irredeemable but clearly has work to do to convince Rick that he isn't just a charlatan. A prayer meeting isnt going to do that especially when it isn't a priority right now.

I go back to their meeting in season 5; after he was saved, Gabriel did not have to take the group to the church or pantry. Why bother? Particularly when he knew nothing about the true nature of Rick's group? Was it for protection? He already hsd safety in the church, and again, why risk exposing your only sanctuary to people who might be killers just waiting for an opportunity in the vein of Joe's gang?

Being TWD, as much as I argue Gabriel's established good points, I can still ask: will his sensibilities take another major hit this season? In the mid-season finale? Will lose it all, by trying to get a little payback on Rick? Who knows. Some characters go back and forth, others do not. But, his revelation to Carl, and helping Maggie and Sasha was a change for him--one he did not have to make.

 

[hux]

Maybe not being a hostile asshole would help.

But that's Rick's thing.

You're making my point: that's not luck. With the walker threat all across the country, there's no "lucky" set up or place. You do realize it took time to set up Alexandria? Pre-ZA, they did not have steel walls and a stocked armory the day before. That took time to build / acquire, respectively, and during that time, there's no way--based on the walker patterns seen in all five previous seasons--that Alexandria just avoided it all.

Of course it's luck. Numerous places have obviously been built but while some of them will have been attacked by walkers and psychos, others will have been more fortunate. That's simply a statistical fact. The Alexandrians are woefully ignorant of how bad things out there because they've been lucky enough not to find out. They've obviously done well for themselves in many regards but I think compared to others, their experience of the zombie apocalypse has been a little less horrific. Luck is involved in that.

It's not like he just got on his feet, brushed himself off and walked away, saying "excuse me, fellas. Oh, there's a leg over there, don't forget that." Walkers are frenzy feeders, so when they had their target (Nicholas), they ignored Glenn long enough for him to inch his way under the dumpster. He was not completely safe, since an additional minute would have reduced Nicholas to something less than food, with Glenn next on the menu. Even as it played out, walkers were reaching under the dumpster to get Glenn, so his escape was not the credibility-buster that the 100% Alexandria theory is.

It stretched credibility to breaking point. I doubt they'll try it again specifically because it was so hard to swallow. It was frankly a piss-take. I'm glad he's alive but the whole thing was done as a novelty (hence dragging it out as long as they did).

No, one can easily argue that in TWD, a crisis of faith happens when said faith is weakened by events the individual cannot process to varying degrees, couled with what were once separate events like death of loved ones. Hershel faced this in the conversation with Rick & Glenn in the town bar ("Nebraska"). But he came around to know that what was happening was not an attack on or weakness of what guides faith, but another experience his faith would allow him to endure.

He--like Sasha, Maggie and Beth (recall Beth trying to kill herself in season 2) were just the first of a generation to face this new attack on survival and the very meaning of life.

You're making assumptions about the characters breakdowns being religious in nature. I think the strains of a zombie apocalypse might be a more obvious contributing factor. I would describe their problems as human in nature, not religious. Simply having someone to listen to you will provide immense comfort. Whether they are a priest or a truck driver, it doesn't really matter.

Gabriel already had a purpose--long before the ZA, but his own beliefs had to go through the same test that hit the aforementioned characters before.

His purpose before the ZA was to spout religiosity at people (stuff about character, doing good and helping others). His purpose after the ZA however, was to actually live up to those things. Locking himself away in a church and allowing others to die outside was not a good start.

If he's truly a spiritual person, there's really nothing to be gained from his end in the sense of an advantage; either some want to be receptive to ministering, or they will not. If he's truly a spiritual person, it is his job to minister to others, however, if he was the last man on earth, he would have his own spiritual study and application to life.

If.

I go back to their meeting in season 5; after he was saved, Gabriel did not have to take the group to the church or pantry. Why bother? Particularly when he knew nothing about the true nature of Rick's group? Was it for protection? He already hsd safety in the church, and again, why risk exposing your only sanctuary to people who might be killers just waiting for an opportunity in the vein of Joe's gang?

He needed his own salvation. If he was all about being righteous, I doubt he would have left people to die outside. Rick's group coming along gave him an opportunity to forgive himself. But again, this would be about his needs and not so much about theirs. Maybe this was a turning point for him but I definitely think he gained by being part of their group rather than sitting alone in the dark contemplating the terrible thing he did.

Being TWD, as much as I argue Gabriel's established good points, I can still ask: will his sensibilities take another major hit this season? In the mid-season finale? Will lose it all, by trying to get a little payback on Rick? Who knows. Some characters go back and forth, others do not. But, his revelation to Carl, and helping Maggie and Sasha was a change for him--one he did not have to make.

Maybe but from Rick's point of view it's still not good enough. Like it or not, Rick is the leader and he clearly has a major problem with Gabriel. I think his instincts are right but that doesn't mean to say he can't change his mind. He's changed his mind about other people.

 

[Trekker4747]

In "Nebraska," didn't he finally shoot one of Randall's gang in the alley? Or one on the grass who fell and became screaming walker food?

He may have shot people or shot *at* people but hasn't killed anyone. (It's a quibble, but killing someone and wounding them and making them bait for walkers are two different things.)

 

[sojourner]

Wait, did you just blame the actors for doing what they were told to do?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Maybe not being a hostile asshole would help.

But that's Rick's thing.

That's not a good thing. Its the same kind of personality that made Milton turn on the Governor. Not that i'm predicting anything for Rick, but....

Of course it's luck. Numerous places have obviously been built but while some of them will have been attacked by walkers and psychos, others will have been more fortunate. That's simply a statistical fact. The Alexandrians are woefully ignorant of how bad things out there because they've been lucky enough not to find out. They've obviously done well for themselves in many regards but I think compared to others, their experience of the zombie apocalypse has been a little less horrific. Luck is involved in that.

Luck is a notion, not a fact. Either Deanna's group lived in the same world that saw majors cities and forest regions heavily populated by walkers season after season, or they live in an alternate universe that only recently merged with the one we have watched from S1-E1 until the 2nd half of season 5.

It stretched credibility to breaking point. I doubt they'll try it again specifically because it was so hard to swallow. It was frankly a piss-take. I'm glad he's alive but the whole thing was done as a novelty (hence dragging it out as long as they did).

I've already complained about the repeated season 5 teasing of Glenn and baseball bats, but his escaping from the walker pile was believable.

You're making assumptions about the characters breakdowns being religious in nature.

Hershel repeatedly referred to the Bible and passages in reference to the ZA, and his troubled faith as a result of the ZA in season two. Maggie was obviously dealing with similar feelings when she did not want to hear Gabriel's words connected to faith (about Beth) while the group was on the road. This is not a rare theme in TWD.

I would describe their problems as human in nature, not religious. Simply having someone to listen to you will provide immense comfort. Whether they are a priest or a truck driver, it doesn't really matter.

Sasha and Maggie were not seeking nothing more than a kind shoulder; Maggie has that in overdoes from Glenn, but it was not helping her. Similarly, Michonne and others tried reaching out to Sasha, but again, talk meant little (and was angrily rejected), since she was dealing with issues far greater than someone just trying to be understanding. Again, that was the reason for that conclusion in the church room; the journey of Maggie and Sasha was carefully written since their personal losses, as well as the troubles suffered until the season 5 finale. No one films a prayer scene being their answer if they were getting what they needed all along.

He needed his own salvation. If he was all about being righteous, I doubt he would have left people to die outside.

His faith was shaken during the chaos--he was reduced to a frightened, desperate man. The totality of it all explains the temporary loss of faith, anger & suicidal tendency seen in season 5.

Being TWD, as much as I argue Gabriel's established good points, I can still ask: will his sensibilities take another major hit this season? In the mid-season finale? Will lose it all, by trying to get a little payback on Rick? Who knows. Some characters go back and forth, others do not. But, his revelation to Carl, and helping Maggie and Sasha was a change for him--one he did not have to make.

Maybe but from Rick's point of view it's still not good enough. Like it or not, Rick is the leader and he clearly has a major problem with Gabriel. I think his instincts are right but that doesn't mean to say he can't change his mind. He's changed his mind about other people.

Well, even with Carol--the woman who saved him--he said he still did not "know about" what she did (Karen & David). Instead of just being completely thankful he was alive to even talk to her again, he had to bring up something which, at that point, was irrelevant.

After a week of reflecting on this episode: It Stank. Better to have left Glen dead, as far as I am concerned. At least the integrity of the 'no one is safe' aspect of the show would still be intact.

Everything about it seemed designed to distract from the (now obviously) stupid decision to save Glenn, and it worked...

Pages and pages of responses about Enid and Gabriel, and Alexandria, but nary a mention of how downright stupid Glen managing to wriggle out of this one appeared. Yeah, a little bit of discussion concerning the bin being high enough or not, but nothing about the actors literally lowering their heads/averting their eyes to avoid seeing/smelling Glenn right there under their misshapen noses. Sorry, I don't buy it. This was, as much as I hoped he would survive, dumb, dumb, dumb.

I mentioned the Glenn matter earlier:

It's not like he just got on his feet, brushed himself off and walked away, saying "excuse me, fellas. Oh, there's a leg over there, don't forget that." Walkers are frenzy feeders, so when they had their target (Nicholas), they ignored Glenn long enough for him to inch his way under the dumpster. He was not completely safe, since an additional minute would have reduced Nicholas to something less than food, with Glenn next on the menu. Even as it played out, walkers were reaching under the dumpster to get Glenn...

 

[Trekker4747]

After a week of reflecting on this episode: It Stank. Better to have left Glen dead, as far as I am concerned. At least the integrity of the 'no one is safe' aspect of the show would still be intact.

Everything about it seemed designed to distract from the (now obviously) stupid decision to save Glenn, and it worked...

Pages and pages of responses about Enid and Gabriel, and Alexandria, but nary a mention of how downright stupid Glen managing to wriggle out of this one appeared. Yeah, a little bit of discussion concerning the bin being high enough or not, but nothing about the actors literally lowering their heads/averting their eyes to avoid seeing/smelling Glenn right there under their misshapen noses. Sorry, I don't buy it. This was, as much as I hoped he would survive, dumb, dumb, dumb.

Anyone paying attention and aware of how this show operates really shouldn't have expected Glenn to be really dead anyway. Forgetting leaked photos, BTS information, Talking Dead, the very fact that we didn't actually *see* his death in a show the revels in Cable-TV levels of violence and gore should have been a tip-off.

And I'm not sure what you mean by the "decision to save Glenn." Certainly you realize these episodes were written and filmed many months ago? The episode was already in the can before the first episode of the season even aired. So it's not like they re-wrote themselves out of a corner. This was always the "arc" for Glenn and it's too early to see if he's really "saved" or "back." Yes he's alive and uninjured but he could come out of this a much darker person. As said, Glenn is the only person who has yet to, directly, kill a person. He's always been up-beat and positive. That may still have changed, even his attitude towards Enid was a little harder for Glenn.

And, Glenn's timer is running given where the series' next chapters are going to go.

The show is playing out an arc, we have to see where it goes.

 

[hux]

Luck is a notion, not a fact. Either Deanna's group lived in the same world that saw majors cities and forest regions heavily populated by walkers season after season, or they live in an alternate universe that only recently merged with the one we have watched from S1-E1 until the 2nd half of season 5.

You're being ridiculous. Are you suggesting that everyone on the planet is experiencing the exact same zombie apocalypse? Demonstrably not. Herschel lived on a farm with a fairly scarce surrounding population. That was lucky. Those living in densely populated cities at the outbreak were, by comparison, unlucky. Those who had acces to guns... lucky. Those who didn't... unlucky. Those who ended up at Terminus... unlucky. And so on.

Clearly there is an element of luck in what kind of experiences you are forced to endure in this new world and the whole point of Alexandria has been that they have not had to face as many difficulties as others. Hence, they are ill-equipped to deal with a number of basic things. Their luck would eventually run out and Deanna knew it.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Luck is a notion, not a fact. Either Deanna's group lived in the same world that saw majors cities and forest regions heavily populated by walkers season after season, or they live in an alternate universe that only recently merged with the one we have watched from S1-E1 until the 2nd half of season 5.

You're being ridiculous. Are you suggesting that everyone on the planet is experiencing the exact same zombie apocalypse?

In "TS-19," Jenner provided insight that it was happening everywhere; when the French equivalent of the CDC fell ("stayed until the end"), do you really think that just meant the doctors and technicians just punched out at 5? The ZA swept every location ever seen of referred to. In "Self Help," Eugene's party (far beyond the Terminus/prison area) discovered a vast farmland overrun by hordes of walkers in yet another area. On the road to Alexandria, the only thing faced was what? More walker hordes (the barn attack, the nighttime forest, etc.).

Now at the ASZ, where do you think that local mass of walkers came from? They were not just dropped from a troop carrier, or were beamed down. They swarmed the area, and considering there's not much time between the S5 finale, and this first half of S6, which is little more than one long day or so, the quarry horde, the road horde and now the horde breaking into the ASZ did not just pop into existence. They were in the general area. That establishes precedent, as there are no borders to prevent the wandering or migration of thousands of walkers at any time since the fall and mass conversion of humans into walkers.

There's no logical way for the ASZ--considering its proximity to what are known (in reality) as heavily populated regions of the state to have skated by the crush of walkers since the ZA's start. Similarly, there's no logical way to assume that population scattered in all directions...except in the direction of what would become the ASZ.

Herschel lived on a farm with a fairly scarce surrounding population.

There were hordes in the surrounding area, and with no opposition from hiding humans, they have the freedom of mobility, hence the wandering mass that eventually destroyed his farm ("Better Angels" & "Beside the Dying Fire").

At the high school ("Bloodletting") it was overrun by yet another swarm of walkers, while the neighborhood explored by Andrea & Shane ("Secrets") was heavily populated. Again, the point is that walkers are the product of the living. With the living all not fleeing to some mythical stronghold out of sight, they (the sick and/or killed and/or murdered, etc.) remained in the area and eventually died / reanimated, and spread.

There are no "walker free" zones anywhere in this series.

the whole point of Alexandria has been that they have not had to face as many difficulties as others.

That has been oversold, or was a poor creation from the start, as it does not hold up with every other on screen example of groups, camps/towns or bases in series history. It seems like an easy set-up to round up more redshirts for a conflict that needs...redshirts (similar to the house cleaning of the Woodbury refugees at the prison, while most of the heroes escaped).

 

[hux]

In "TS-19," Jenner provided insight that it was happening everywhere; when the French equivalent of the CDC fell ("stayed until the end"), do you really think that just meant the doctors and technicians just punched out at 5? The ZA swept every location ever seen of referred to. In "Self Help," Eugene's party (far beyond the Terminus/prison area) discovered a vast farmland overrun by hordes of walkers in yet another area. On the road to Alexandria, the only thing faced was what? More walker hordes (the barn attack, the nighttime forest, etc.).

Again, I repeat... are you saying that everyone is experiencing the zombie apocalypse in exactly the same way? This would be dumb. Obviously some people would be a little luckier, or a little unluckier. People in wheelchairs... yup, unlucky bastards. People who live up a mountain with an endless supply of canned goods... pretty lucky.

Now at the ASZ, where do you think that local mass of walkers came from? They were not just dropped from a troop carrier, or were beamed down. They swarmed the area, and considering there's not much time between the S5 finale, and this first half of S6, which is little more than one long day or so, the quarry horde, the road horde and now the horde breaking into the ASZ did not just pop into existence. They were in the general area. That establishes precedent, as there are no borders to prevent the wandering or migration of thousands of walkers at any time since the fall and mass conversion of humans into walkers.

Yes, this proves they have been lucky not to have to deal with them in mass numbers before. Had Rick and the others not come up with a plan, the Alexandrians would have simply ignored it due to the fact that they have been lucky so far and assumed that their luck would continue. Likewise no one has attacked them before in any meaningful way but that luck also ran out and they are now dealing with the Wolves and presumably Negan will be next. Not having to deal with these kinds of people until now would qualify as... being a bit lucky.

There's no logical way for the ASZ--considering its proximity to what are known (in reality) as heavily populated regions of the state to have skated by the crush of walkers since the ZA's start. Similarly, there's no logical way to assume that population scattered in all directions...except in the direction of what would become the ASZ.

Good old fashioned luck tends to have little time for logic. That's often why it's called luck.

There were hordes in the surrounding area, and with no opposition from hiding humans, they have the freedom of mobility, hence the wandering mass that eventually destroyed his farm ("Better Angels" & "Beside the Dying Fire").

At the high school ("Bloodletting") it was overrun by yet another swarm of walkers, while the neighborhood explored by Andrea & Shane ("Secrets") was heavily populated. Again, the point is that walkers are the product of the living. With the living all not fleeing to some mythical stronghold out of sight, they (the sick and/or killed and/or murdered, etc.) remained in the area and eventually died / reanimated, and spread.

Yes, the living. Some of them live in highly populated areas, some of them live in highly unpopulated areas. Should a zombie apocalypse occur, by definition those who live in one of the highly unpopulated areas... had a smidgeon of luck.

That has been oversold, or was a poor creation from the start, as it does not hold up with every other on screen example of groups, camps/towns or bases in series history. It seems like an easy set-up to round up more redshirts for a conflict that needs...redshirts (similar to the house cleaning of the Woodbury refugees at the prison, while most of the heroes escaped).

So you're saying we should dismiss what the show presents us and assume a more realistic story. Yeah, that doesn't work. The whole point of Alexandria has been that they have not had to deal with a great deal up until now because, you know... they've been a little bit lucky. I see no reason to believe that that couldn't be the case for a lot of people in a zombie apocalypse. Hell, if Glenn can fall head away from the dumpster but land with his head next to it and crawl away, I'm pretty sure we can conclusively say... luck exists in this universe.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Let's give Alexandria just a TAD bit of credit... Aaron & Eric, when scouting out people, purposely avoided contact with dangerous people.

Others, in their runs, obviously did not make enough noise to lead walkers in their direction. Perhaps they might have even led some AWAY from ALexandria.

And for luck...they're lucky Rick & Co. came when they did...otherwise the horde would've come , and they wouldn't have been completely overrun by the horde and/or the Wolves. We'll see how bad they get attacked, but nowhere near as bad as if they didn't "luckily" run into rick & Co. when they did.

Can't wait for tonight...

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Again, I repeat... are you saying that everyone is experiencing the zombie apocalypse in exactly the same way?

I'm saying a country with millions--endless walkers overrunning or constantly threatening the living will not miss a location in a state with a population of 8,326,289 (as of 2014) and 150,575 in Alexandria alone.

Think about that.

You only have a couple of believable options:

1. The majority of that 8+ million population did not leave the state. That just did not happen, so if the ZA is as widespread as the series suggests, then most of that population turned into walkers.

2. If they turned into walkers, why would they conveniently miss one town, when Alexandria---again, with a population of 150,575 is wide open and as of the premiere and 7th episode of season 6, is surrounded by legions of walkers on the nearby roads/quarry, etc.? The answer is that they would not miss it. The ASZ is not Stratos or Cloud City. It occupies the same, walker infested land as the rest of the nation.

Yes, this proves they have been lucky not to have to deal with them in mass numbers before. Had Rick and the others not come up with a plan, the Alexandrians would have simply ignored it due to the fact that they have been lucky so far and assumed that their luck would continue. Likewise no one has attacked them before in any meaningful way but that luck also ran out and they are now dealing with the Wolves and presumably Negan will be next. Not having to deal with these kinds of people until now would qualify as... being a bit lucky.

So, you think they will just so happen to be discovered--pretty much back to back by the Wolves (established) and Negan's group, but with two+ years of the ZA, ASZ just missed hundreds of thousands of walkers who have nothing but time and 24 hour mobility on their side?

That has been oversold, or was a poor creation from the start, as it does not hold up with every other on screen example of groups, camps/towns or bases in series history. It seems like an easy set-up to round up more redshirts for a conflict that needs...redshirts (similar to the house cleaning of the Woodbury refugees at the prison, while most of the heroes escaped).

So you're saying we should dismiss what the show presents us and assume a more realistic story. Yeah, that doesn't work.

If you can accept that implausible set up, then you can accept a skinny, rotted walker taking down living, stronger Dale, you can accept Glenn's dumpster escape, Andrea taking time to get misty talking to a quickly dying Milton, and just about everything else WD fans have complained about for years.

 

[Admiral2]

I love how Carl dropped some knowledge on Porch Dick junior.

And, yeah, keep a Wolf alive, cause he won't break out and cause problems later, right?

Still Team Carol.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Strong finale.

Gabriel and Rick have an understanding. This should take on an interesting turn.

Deanna was finally sympathetic, as her questioning of Michonne picks up the same kind of conversation Michonne had with Rick at Noah's home town. On that note, Michonne seeking what she wants out of life may end up taking a different path than Rick, particularly if the Hilltop plot springs out of this latest disaster.

Sam is too traumatized to live. I cannot see him making it out of season 6.

All Knowing Carol vs. Morgan. Where can this go? How injured is Carol? If the newbie doctor dies--or is spirited away to Wolf country, will Rick kick Morgan out (of what's left), or will Morgan go after the wolf himself?

Carl's tough truth to Ron: the biggest set up for episode 9. Ron is too much of an ass to let anything go.

Finally, about the prologue to 6B: I hope Daryl, Sasha and Abraham are not "occupied" for the remainder of the season.

 

[sojourner]

I think it's funny that Carol is the reason wolf boy was able to escape. Oh the irony.

 

[Trekker4747]

I think it's funny that Carol is the reason wolf boy was able to escape. Oh the irony.

Indeed. We can blame and criticize Morgan all we want on the naivety of believing he could "being the Wolf back" consider how he acted and the time/resources Morgan had. (Even if we accept that the Wolf was redeemable like Morgan was, how long did it take to bring Morgan back from his "I have to clear!" brink to even the level of sanity he had when Eastman was bitten? Because it seemed to take from around the time Rick and Morgan met in King County in S3 until "present" when Morgan was on the trail of the group headed for Alexandria. So we're talking about a period of many months. Was Morgan really going to hold Meth-Mouth Wolf down there for several months in secret? And then that Rick and the others would just accept him as part of the Alexandria community?

Shut-up, Sam!

Some minor kudos to Carol for feigning a concussion in order to access the basement room.

Really would have expected Daryl and co. to arrive with the RPG in order to help. Actually, as expecting a bit more of a battle between everyone and the walkers; not everyone hiding in their holes talking.

For as much as a dink he can be, on several occasions Eugene has proven himself to be capable, smart and with a variety of skills; even if he can't quite kill walkers.

I was expecting a "major" death tonight; it's a trope of this genre and virtually with this series. I knew it wasn't going to be an A-Team member, but was figuring the B-Team, namely people whose arks have played out or who had enough recent focus for their death to serve a purpose.

Tara was an early choice given her general optimism and general willingness to take unnecessary risks in the name of taking a more moral stance. She just doesn't have the A-Team clout, and recent arc, that Glenn does to buy her longevity. Her recent encounters with Rick made her a likely choice.

Eugene was my next choice, again his ark has played out and he's not much use as a character beyond some humor and some awesome hair. His confrontation with Rosita also meant his death would have impacted her some and played a purpose.

Beyond them, I figured on seeing some red-shirt Alexandrians getting killed and I don't even think we got that. Though, I was thinking Carol was going to succumb to her injuries following the brief battle or get killed during the fight with Morgan. (Either by him getting pushed too far, or the Wolf seizing an opening.)

--- Hey, when Carol rushed to the bunker the camera made it point to focus on the bullets she dropped. Did we ever get a pay-off to that? I was expecting those bullets to play some role later. Especially as the Wolf left, the gun turning out to be unloaded because Carol (or whoever) never got a chance to reloaded it the rush to recover the dropped shells and get into the shelter.

Would not have expected Madam Governor to be the one to get killed; but I suspect that's more in line with the comics though I'm not too brushed-up on this "era" in the comics beyond some key details here and there.

--- Hey, what happened to the other survivors who were with Michonne and Glenn? One of them the dreadlocks kids who, IIRC, was supposed to be a new character? Did they make it back and we just haven't seen them again yet? I'm pretty sure the dreadlocks kid survived to get out of there with everyone else. Didn't he make it out with Michonne, shouldn't we have seen him back in Alexandria once they made it back.

Wish we had something between Maggie and Glenn seeing each other at the same time over the distance and having something of a reunion there.

About time the "Walker Camo" thing came into use again. I was just wondering about it right when Rick suggested it. They need to come up with some in-show reason to not use it more often. Something like it carrying some risk of contamination that makes you succumb to the infection so it's not something you want to resort to that often. Another option would have been to use the notion of Michonne's familiars/pets.

Sort-of an eye-roll with presumably turned Madam Governor feeding on Judith in her crib. Not nearly enough time had passed for her to die from the "illness" and turn. (Even allowing for the rare instance of a minutes-long turn time.) The infection you die from is supposed to take the better part of a day to kill you. Hell, Jim almost lasted two days.

As for the sneak-peak during ITB (What's that even about? The few minutes of it tonight was the most I've seen) as soon as I saw the guys on the bikes I knew it was the Saviors and squeed silently to myself when Negan was mentioned.

It's hard to not want to compare finales to other show's finales. Naturally, finales like "Who Shot J.R.?" and "Mr. Worf... fire!" stand out for their cliffhangerness. The Walking Dead dances a little on how well they do finales, the best one -for me- being putting down Walker Sophia as she emerges from the barn. Not a cliffhanger, sure, but an emotional punch to the characters and the audience -even if they were expecting it- and played out greatly as Rick is the only one to step-up and put Walker Sophia down.

Last year's fall finale being the somewhat "token"-played death of Beth which just didn't seem to come naturally from the story and seemed more like playing that one card in your CCG deck that you just have to burn at some point so might as well do it now. Not to mention how it was analyzed to be fairly impractical from a ballistics standpoint on how Beth got taken out by Dawn. This year's death seemed to work much better story-wise, seemed to come naturally and sets Rick up to take on the mantle as the leader of Alexandria fully and getting reminded from Madam Governor that all the Alexandrians are "his people" and that the man Rick is, is still a good and strong one.

Countdown until ThinkGeek or some other on-line retailer stars selling a blood-looking baby bjorn a'la what was used here to get Judith out of the house.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Irony? Wolf boy's escape would not be an option if he was not turned into a prisoner by Morgan...and increased the risk by bringing paranoid doctor girl into the mix.

Carol was right again. That's not a surprise.

Morgan's going to the hilltop; there's no way Carol and Rick can keep him in the ASZ.