The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

[Temis the Vorta]

The nano-bot/superhealing theory is interesting. There does seem to be another shoe that needs to drop on the medical front.

 

[propita]

I finally watched the episode. Yeah, I was spoiled. Irrelevant since I wanted to watch it anyway.

My reaction? Damn! For a dead girl, Sophia got pretty tall! If that was the same actress in the scene where she gets shot, she looks almost as tall as Rick. Of course she had to die. She grew too fast in a "week."

 

[Horta Burger]

On a different note. If we're assuming that everyone has the Zombie virus, that when you die, you become a Walker... one of the "side effects" is a regenerative power that works for most injuries (like gun shots & arrows) , but not against the Zombie killer bacteria. That's how a guy who was in a coma & dehydrated can make it out alive, or Carl & Daryl recovering in 2 daYA or Merle making it out... That's my quasi-serious fan theory on that.

Actually that's not a bad theory. More importantly, it provides a plausible theory as to the origin of the plague in the first place.

I've always thought that one good rationale for a zombie outbreak is malfunctioning nano-bots that were designed as medical aids to keep people (most likely soldiers alive). The bots were designed to keep the host alive and mobile at all costs. The problem was that their programing was both good and flawed. The same directive that made them keep the host "alive" had the unintended consequence of killing the host. In order to stay mobile, the bots intern recognized that they had to take over the body's command center and thus assumes control over the brain. Equally significant is the fact that the bots, in order to constantly repair damaged tissue and keep the lumbering body functional would need constant injections of new organic material. In a living being this would not be a problem as it would simply eat what it needs, break down the components and the bots would use the materials to keep things moving. But since the nanobots killed the body, digestion and recirculation no longer occurs. Thus the machines program the whats left of the body to seek out healthy organic material similar to that of the host...in this case a healthy human. It tries to consume additional human material and tries to make repairs. Its never fully successful since the body is dead. The bots are just too dumb to recognize that their program has already failed...so they keep going until someone destroys the neural net put in place to keep the body mobile in the brain. This scenario also explains why the zombie plague is immune to traditional medicine. No doctor would have experience treating organic being suffering from a mechanical infection. Jenner could actually see what was happening but have no concept of how to treat the virus since what he was looking at was not a virus. Its the same basic premise as the medical nano technology that mutates humans into childlike monsters in "The Empty Child" on Doctor Who.

This concept makes zombies less a metaphysical menace, but one of human origin. The tragedy is that it was not even created as a weapon but a beneficial technology that was both imperfect yet worked a little too well.

I doubt the show will ever go into any detailed explanation, but yours is actually kind of clever.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

here's a youtube clip that's mini-documentary of that scene

It's nice to see everybody hugging her at the end.

 

[Kytee]

Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

Was it really a spoiler? Considering it was advertised as a mid-season finale, we were expecting her in some way. but it's how she appeared that was a "pleasant" surprise.

here's a youtube clip that's mini-documentary of that scene

That was a great behind the scenes video ) I don't know why, I never get tired of watching then do movie makeup and explain how they do it.
Zombie Makeup is some of the best but even star trek behind the scenes stuff has some great makeup explainations,

- CG

 

[auntiehill]

Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

here's a youtube clip that's mini-documentary of that scene

It's nice to see everybody hugging her at the end.

That was! What a great behind-the-scenes peek.

 

[the G-man]

Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

AIDS was similar to the zombie plague in the beginning -- when you had the virus, it WAS a death sentence. But drugs were developed so that people like Magic Johnson could celebrate 20 years of living despite the death sentence.

How unrealistic would be for Hershel to have that same hope in mind?

And, in fact, Hershel mentioned AIDS and AIDS hysteria very early on when discussing the plague with Rick.

 

[Captain Craig]

I finally got caught up here at the midseason finale and appreciate the dilemma our survivors were placed with. Taking out Herschels' Walkers wasn't an issue, no personal attachment. The conclusion to the long running Sophia is missing arc had them dealing with not only someone they know that is turned/diseased/dead but a child.

I'm hoping that the group has a change of scenery for us in the last half of the season. Will getting to Fort Benning be the end point for a few episodes like the CDC was. They get a few more pieces of the larger puzzle with the Walker epidemic but suffer some more bad news(miscarriage?).

As much as Shane is a killer/rapist you can't help but know he's making sense many times the last few episodes. You can't be soft or naive in the type of world they have inherited.

Really great show!! Can't wait to rewatch S1 soon. Got a great Amazon Cyber Monday price on it at $14.

 

[Morpheus 02]

As much as Shane is a killer/rapist you can't help but know he's making sense many times the last few episodes. You can't be soft or naive in the type of world they have inherited.

Shane might be "right" but imposing his righteousness on people instead of letting them choose to accept it is wrong. (And even though things have changed, are a person's property rights suddenly null and void?)

That's why people hate evangelical Christians try to "impose their will" when get elected to office.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

(And even though things have changed, are a person's property rights suddenly null and void?)

Are human lives more important than property rights? Yes. Rick would have been justified telling Herschel, too bad, old man, my people are staying right here. If I had been Rick, I would have said exactly that. And I would have stuck a gun in his face to make sure he got the point.

If Hershel had booted them off the farm, he would be exposing living people to danger in order to save dead people who as far as we know are unsaveable. The gang would not all have been able to bring themselves to leave the area, thinking Sophia was still in the woods. They would have split up, endangering everyone even more, especially those who keep combing the woods.

How long would it take for Darryl and Carol to give up? Most likely, they would have stuck with it until the zombies got them. It would only be a matter of time. Is it worth sacrificing their lives for Herschel's fucking property rights?

(And I'm assuming Herschel didn't realize there was a little girl zombie recently put in the barn - by Otis? But why would Otis be out zombie-catching on his own? One of the others would have been with him. If Herschel knew that girl most likely was the one everyone was searching for, it's absolutely unconscienable for him to have said nothing, and allow them to continue to expose themselves to danger for no reason. Darryl almost died!)

However, the writers have positioned Shane to be "right" only by dumb luck. When he started towards the barn, I honestly was thinking, Zombie Lunch! It could very well have turned out disasterously. Shane was acting like an out-of-control lunatic.

The fact that he was out of control, not the fact that he was willing to do anything he needed to safeguard Lori, Carl and Lori's unborn baby (if not the rest), is where the problem with him lies.

So basically, in that situation, I'd be Shane, but a whole hell of a lot more self-controlled. The group desperately needs a leader like that.

 

[Captain Craig]

That's why people hate evangelical Christians try to "impose their will" when get elected to office.

Funny, cause I hate when secularists try to impose their will but hey that's alright in your book I bet. Double standard works fine.

And yes property rights go right out the window over human lives/needs in this case. Society has fundamentally changed. Not by legislation, not by vote but by force of nature that can't be controlled or reasoned with. The stupid redneck who cut off his own hand would've been shot by me long before. No time for bigots and racists in my group. It's survival time, get with the program. It's a new world.

 

[the G-man]

But if you say "property rights go out the window," at least completely, you're essentially arguing for ransacking and violence: the strong decide the weak don't "need" something and take it by violence

 

[Captain Craig]

^^^
Watch Panic in the Year Zero, a dated film from I think the 50's but the point is also evident in Tom Cruises War of the Worlds, the weak, the soft will be left behind or put into tow with the strong.
Mankind is still an animal, we just pretend we are above such things, and when push comes to shove I'm sorry but The Joker in TDK is right. He just didn't push enough.

 

[sojourner]

by Otis? But why would Otis be out zombie-catching on his own? One of the others would have been with him. If Herschel knew that girl most likely was the one everyone was searching for, it's absolutely unconscienable for him to have said nothing, and allow them to continue to expose themselves to danger for no reason. Darryl almost died!)

Herschel clearly said in the finale that Otis did most of the zombie wrangling on his own. Which helps to explain why Herschel didn't know Sophia was in the barn.

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^^
Watch Panic in the Year Zero, a dated film from I think the 50's but the point is also evident in Tom Cruises War of the Worlds, the weak, the soft will be left behind or put into tow with the strong.
Mankind is still an animal, we just pretend we are above such things, and when push comes to shove I'm sorry but The Joker in TDK is right. He just didn't push enough.

Thankfully, this show has so far been about people hanging on to their Humanity in the face of a dehumanizing apocalypse. That's what has made it great, and hopefully that's how it will continue.

 

[J.T.B.]

Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

AIDS was similar to the zombie plague in the beginning -- when you had the virus, it WAS a death sentence. But drugs were developed so that people like Magic Johnson could celebrate 20 years of living despite the death sentence.

How unrealistic would be for Hershel to have that same hope in mind?

And, in fact, Hershel mentioned AIDS and AIDS hysteria very early on when discussing the plague with Rick.

But he said the walkers in the barn could be "restored." Finding a cure for an infectious disease might be realistic, bringing half-rotted corpses back to life is pretty clearly not.



Justin

 

[the G-man]

AIDS was similar to the zombie plague in the beginning -- when you had the virus, it WAS a death sentence. But drugs were developed so that people like Magic Johnson could celebrate 20 years of living despite the death sentence.

How unrealistic would be for Hershel to have that same hope in mind?

And, in fact, Hershel mentioned AIDS and AIDS hysteria very early on when discussing the plague with Rick.

But he said the walkers in the barn could be "restored." Finding a cure for an infectious disease might be realistic, bringing half-rotted corpses back to life is pretty clearly not.

I understand that. I wasn't saying Hershel was right. I'm just saying that argument, however deluded, was established to be running through his mind.

^^^
Watch Panic in the Year Zero, a dated film from I think the 50's but the point is also evident in Tom Cruises War of the Worlds, the weak, the soft will be left behind or put into tow with the strong.
Mankind is still an animal, we just pretend we are above such things, and when push comes to shove I'm sorry but The Joker in TDK is right. He just didn't push enough.

Thankfully, this show has so far been about people hanging on to their Humanity in the face of a dehumanizing apocalypse. That's what has made it great, and hopefully that's how it will continue.

Yeah. I understand what probably WOULD happen. But that doesn't mean I approve or advocate that it SHOULD happen.

 

[Captain Craig]

^^^
Watch Panic in the Year Zero, a dated film from I think the 50's but the point is also evident in Tom Cruises War of the Worlds, the weak, the soft will be left behind or put into tow with the strong.
Mankind is still an animal, we just pretend we are above such things, and when push comes to shove I'm sorry but The Joker in TDK is right. He just didn't push enough.

Thankfully, this show has so far been about people hanging on to their Humanity in the face of a dehumanizing apocalypse. That's what has made it great, and hopefully that's how it will continue.

Agree, just noting that Shane's justification, albeit a bit crazed in it's presentation, have merit.

 

[Horta Burger]

(And even though things have changed, are a person's property rights suddenly null and void?)

Are human lives more important than property rights? Yes. Rick would have been justified telling Herschel, too bad, old man, my people are staying right here. If I had been Rick, I would have said exactly that. And I would have stuck a gun in his face to make sure he got the point.

If Hershel had booted them off the farm, he would be exposing living people to danger in order to save dead people who as far as we know are unsaveable. The gang would not all have been able to bring themselves to leave the area, thinking Sophia was still in the woods. They would have split up, endangering everyone even more, especially those who keep combing the woods.

How long would it take for Darryl and Carol to give up? Most likely, they would have stuck with it until the zombies got them. It would only be a matter of time. Is it worth sacrificing their lives for Herschel's fucking property rights?

(And I'm assuming Herschel didn't realize there was a little girl zombie recently put in the barn - by Otis? But why would Otis be out zombie-catching on his own? One of the others would have been with him. If Herschel knew that girl most likely was the one everyone was searching for, it's absolutely unconscienable for him to have said nothing, and allow them to continue to expose themselves to danger for no reason. Darryl almost died!)

However, the writers have positioned Shane to be "right" only by dumb luck. When he started towards the barn, I honestly was thinking, Zombie Lunch! It could very well have turned out disasterously. Shane was acting like an out-of-control lunatic.

The fact that he was out of control, not the fact that he was willing to do anything he needed to safeguard Lori, Carl and Lori's unborn baby (if not the rest), is where the problem with him lies.

So basically, in that situation, I'd be Shane, but a whole hell of a lot more self-controlled. The group desperately needs a leader like that.

Lots of valid points. But the thing I like is that Shane was right about the big picture. His first reaction upon learning about the barn: "We clear it out or we go." That's spot on. Anything in between is ultimately going to be a fiasco, as we saw. Far from being a complete nut, Shane offers the leader a choice; Rick refuses to make one while clearly wanting to stay. Humoring Hershel is a half measure when full measures are needed, to quote Breaking Bad.

It's the half measures that caused the end. Would Shane have been so out of control about it absent that surreal moment with Rick and Hershel walking their walkers? Absent arguing with people he thinks have completely lost it? Probably not. Half measures made it worse.

Shane and Rick kind of remind me of Kirk split in two on the original Star Trek. Rick has the inner strength the group needs to sustain itself, but he's vacillating and indecisive. Shane has decisiveness in spades, but he doesn't have control of himself deep down.

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^ Ironic that Shane's breakdown was triggered by thinking that Rick had lost it.

^^^
Watch Panic in the Year Zero, a dated film from I think the 50's but the point is also evident in Tom Cruises War of the Worlds, the weak, the soft will be left behind or put into tow with the strong.
Mankind is still an animal, we just pretend we are above such things, and when push comes to shove I'm sorry but The Joker in TDK is right. He just didn't push enough.

Thankfully, this show has so far been about people hanging on to their Humanity in the face of a dehumanizing apocalypse. That's what has made it great, and hopefully that's how it will continue.

Yeah. I understand what probably WOULD happen. But that doesn't mean I approve or advocate that it SHOULD happen.

I think probably both would happen. You'd have enclaves of people who would revert to barbarism (some of them welcoming it) and some who could maintain civilization. Just like in any other situation, like natural disaster or war, you have the people that use the opportunity to steal or rape, and you have the people who help others and work to rebuild. I'm just happy that the heroes of this show are the ones who hang on to their standards.

Agree, just noting that Shane's justification, albeit a bit crazed in it's presentation, have merit.

You mean that collecting Zombies is dangerous? Yeah, that's for sure-- but the situation was stable for the moment until he went off the rails.