The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

[DarthTom]

See I don't understand this opinion. Doesn't mean you're not entitled to it but I still don't get it.

I agree. The acting is first rate and every show cannot be about shooting and killing zombies. Last night's episode was outstanding and it resolved a lot of the remaning issues, notably what happened to Sophia.

The teaser seemed to imply that Herschel is going to leave his farm for a while presumably in grief and anger.

The big surprise for me is how likable the Daryl character has become. I should have seen that coming. Bad guy turns into nice guy story arc.

 

[Vendikarr]

The big surprise for me is how likable the Daryl character has become. I should have seen that coming. Bad guy turns into nice guy story arc.

I expect to see Daryl take a turn to the dark side. It seems the only thing that has been holding him together was the search for Sophia. Now that we've learned her fate, I can see him coming apart.

 

[C_Miller]

It's interesting how much of Rick's personality in the comics is getting transferred to Shane in the TV series.

I don't really see that. Some of his actions are, like wanting to deal with the zombies in the barn, but I view Shane was rather unhinged,

Spoiler: TWD

which is what got him shot.

Rick didn't start really acting like this until the prison.

And even then, it was because his people were getting attacked. Shane just went off the handle for no reason. They had been there for a week and no one was injured. If someone was killed, I'm sure Rick would have been right there with Shane.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

I figured she had to be in the barn. My mom even shouted "I knew it."

I was sad to see Rick having to shoot Sofia. I wonder if they will ever show what happened that led up to that point?

Shane is almost becoming too unhinged and villian-like. I can't see how they can have him continue on the show. Dale knows that Shane's cheese is starting to / has slid off his cracker.

I wonder how the show runners will do cast changes/losses? Boy is it going to be depressing if they all die at the end.

 

[C_Miller]

For the comic at least, which is around issue 100 of a planned 300 or so issue story, Robert Kirkman has that the only one who's safe is Rick (for the time being), since the comic is about his personal journey. And after Sophia's death, I think that it's safe to say that the TV show is taking a similar approach.

 

[DarthTom]

Shane is almost becoming too unhinged and villian-like. I can't see how they can have him continue on the show. Dale knows that Shane's cheese is starting to / has slid off his cracker.

I was having a friendly debate with someone about that. Actually, if zombies had taken over the world, if the infrastructure had collapsed, I think Shane's actions are completly reasonable.

 

[PsychoPere]

[...] I think it's pretty clear to everyone now that Shane is definitely taking a ride on the Crazy Train.

Indeed, it would have to be pretty damn obvious after opening the barn up like that with everyone - even unarmed people - standing right there, though it fit in with the "point" that he was trying to make about fighting to defend yourself and your people. Still, as crazy as Shane is apparently becoming, he was the only one who was proactive in doing something about the walkers in the barn.

I thought that Herschel was keeping her a secret but according to The Talking Dead, Otis snared her, put her in the barn and got killed before any discussion about a missing girl could take place.

That makes sense, and I have to say that I'm glad the intention wasn't that Herschel was keeping a young zombie girl in his barn a secret from the others (he obviously wouldn't have known her name even if he had been, but he would've had to suspect that it may have been Sophia). Herschel's mental state is undeniably damaged, but doing so would go beyond his belief that the zombies are simply people sick with a disease.

Shane is almost becoming too unhinged and villian-like. I can't see how they can have him continue on the show. Dale knows that Shane's cheese is starting to / has slid off his cracker.

At this rate, Shane may soon present as much a threat to the group as the zombies do.

 

[Silvercrest]

I figured she had to be in the barn. My mom even shouted "I knew it."

The show didn't leave too many other options by this point. That doofus on "Talking Dead" kept repeating that he never saw that coming; well, he's about the only one. I bet he was also surprised that Anakin turned into Darth Vader.

I was sad to see Rick having to shoot Sofia. I wonder if they will ever show what happened that led up to that point?

Note that Rick was able to bring himself to shoot Sofia when Shane couldn't. After Shane's speech about Rick not being suited for this kind of world, that says a lot. Maybe that will shut Shane up for a while, though I doubt it.

Who caught the segment of "Talking Dead" where they explained what happened to Sofia? Can we spoil that?

Edit: Okay, someone already posted it.

I thought Shane's demonstration was pretty good. How else do you prove that something isn't normally alive, except that it can't be normally killed? That got me thinking, though. Herschel may think the walkers can cured-- but apart from the fact that they're feral and unreasoning, there's also the fact that most of them have big gaping holes with stuff leaking out. Wounds that are beyond modern medicine. If he thinks those can be healed too, that's some serious denial.

The big surprise for me is how likable the Daryl character has become. I should have seen that coming. Bad guy turns into nice guy story arc.

I expect to see Daryl take a turn to the dark side. It seems the only thing that has been holding him together was the search for Sophia. Now that we've learned her fate, I can see him coming apart.

I see that happening too. I only hope he doesn't totally go off the deep end. But that was already hinted at during the Merle "encounter".

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Herschel was always in denial about the walkers (the comics parallel this). He'd somehow convinced himself, despite everything he'd seen and been told, that his wife and son could be made okay somehow. Maggie, his remaining living family who barely even speak, and every other zombie in the barn was being taken along for the ride.

This episode was the culmination of a loooot of setup, and was a very emotional climax for the whole half-season. However, I think everyone could agree that these seven episodes of story could have been told in four or five... I hope we don't have to go through that again.

How long has it actually been, time-wise, since the season started? I'm sure we coudl count the days? My wife and I think it's been a couple weeks since Carl was shot, but he's awful mobile for what's happened. Darryl too, for that matter.

Mark

 

[Enterprise is Great]

At this point Shane may be more dangerous to the group than the zombies are . Sooner rather than later he's going to do violence towards one or more of the people he's traveling with. Rick or Dale better watch their backs.

 

[JacksonArcher]

Even though I had already read the ending and the basic outline of the episode after peeking at the spoilers that were posted a few days back, the final moments of the episode were just absolutely gut-wrenching and you could feel the impact on every character.

It was one of the most simultaneously sad, tragic yet beautifully somber moments of the entire series to date, even if the ending was predictable especially since the whole Sophia sub-plot had been dragged out for so long. It makes sense given the thematic context of what had transpired over the duration of the season so far, and the impact from that reveal has a really hefty significance on all of the characters and whatever direction they end up heading after this fall-out.

I was suspecting after what happened with Hershel that the group would be kicked out of the house but it appears at the very least that they stay connected with Hershel on some level after watching the preview for the next batch of episodes.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Kick-ass ratings, as you would expect. Do more sci fi like this, Hollywood, you will be rewarded with excellent demos.

I dunno where they're going with the story, but unless there's something to Herschel's "insane" notions of being able to cure zombie-ism, there's no moral conflict here.

Shane is right. Herschel is a deluded old man, and is immoral for endangering living people in a nutty attempt to save the dead. Rick is a poor leader, trying to "negotiate" with Herschel by participating in and reinforcing the behavior (saving zombies) that he should be trying to talk the guy out of. Rick got an up close and personal look at exactly why Herschel needs to be stopped - zombie catching sooner or later is going to result in disaster, especially with Otis gone.

There's plenty of interpersonal conflict here - Shane may be right, but he's also being portrayed as being more and more unstable (interesting contrast), and his motives are selfish, so his being right is merely accidental - but no moral conflict.

All that would change even if there were a possibility that Herschel may be right about zombie-ism being curable. Even if that shoe drops next season or the season after, long after Herschel is presumably out of the story, it would transform the meaning of everything we've seen.

It's interesting how much of Rick's personality in the comics is getting transferred to Shane in the TV series.

Not having read the comics, I'm not sure exactly what this means, but I think it's a good thing to have a more rigorously "moral" and even gentle lead character to contrast with the amoral character who argues for practicality at the expense of all else. To have both characters rolled into one would make the conflict too internal - which you can get away with in novels and graphic novels, but is problematic on TV, where all conflict must be externalized.

I find Shane in particular a fascinating character, and the more out of control he gets, the better he is.

 

[MilleniumLance]

much beloved character/ characters should be showing up soon

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Oh, man, I dread watching this now.

And that's a good thing. Imagine having a zombie show you don't dread watching. What's the point of it being a zombie show, then?

And even then, it was because his people were getting attacked. Shane just went off the handle for no reason.

He thinks Lori is pregnant with his child (and I guess that soap opera angle hasn't been put to rest after all, oy vey). And even without that, he's concerned with Lori and Carl's safety. He probably is concerned about Rick and maybe Andrea too. He's trying to safeguard his people, just as Herschel was trying to safeguard his. Their motives are equal, both are pretty nutty, and which one is right depends entirely on a plot development we haven't gotten yet - is zombie-ism curable?

Indeed, it would have to be pretty damn obvious after opening the barn up like that with everyone - even unarmed people - standing right there, though it fit in with the "point" that he was trying to make about fighting to defend yourself and your people. Still, as crazy as Shane is apparently becoming, he was the only one who was proactive in doing something about the walkers in the barn.

The writers let Shane luck out this time. I was really expecting Zombie Lunch during that scene. I found the fact that none of the living got killed far more surprising than the oh-so-obvious 'twist' that Sophia was in the barn.

Sooner or later, Shane's antics are going to get people killed. The fact that he was (accidentally) right this time - if he hadn't opened up the barn, the gang would keep trying to find Sophia in the woods indefinitely, exposing themselves to needless danger - is just going to enhance his sense of self-justification and make him more dangerous still.

 

[DarthTom]

Kick-ass ratings, as you would expect. Do more sci fi like this, Hollywood, you will be rewarded with excellent demos.

There is some strategy and luck I think too. With the success of teen flicks like Twilight the market is ripe for another group of dead people on the 'little screen,' combined with intense interpersonal drama.

I find Shane in particular a fascinating character, and the more out of control he gets, the better he is.

Agreed 100%

 

[Takeru]

As crazy as Shane is, I think he did the right thing. Hershel had to be forced to see what the Walkers are, they're not sick, they're not people, they are dangerous things that will kill you sooner or later if you're not willing to put a bullets in their brains.
Yes, it's Hershel's house, that doesn't mean he gets to make the rules. You can't do anything you want on your property in our non-ZA world and you most certainly can't do it in a world with no authorities and laws left. That includes property laws, it will stop being Hershel's farm as soon as someone with a bigger gun decides to kick the crazy old fart out. Sounds harsh, but that's the situation he's in.

And speaking of crazy old farts. I hate Dale, what a useless character, I hoped Shane would kill him, he would do the group a favor. The zombie attack in the season premiere was Dale's fault because he somehow missed them shuffling towards the group in a straight line while he was the lookout. Then he did nothing except lying about the repairs, sticking his nose into other people's private lifes, talking shit about Daryl (the most important member of the group who could teach them all a thing about hunting and surviving with civilization gone) and then trying to hide the weapons because the idiot who keeps zombies in his barn and lives in an unfortified house said so. When he asked Shane if he thought they'd be safer with the weapons I wanted to reach into the screen, grab him and scream "Yes, you are!".

Oh, and why is Dale constantly attacking Shane? He told him to his face that he thinks he's a murderous bastard who would kill his best friend, then he tells him he knows he shot Otis to save his own ass and that he won't kill him because he's not like Shane and than hands him back the weapons? Is he the one with the death wish now? Sounds like he's working on his suicide by crazy cop.

All that would change even if there were a possibility that Herschel may be right about zombie-ism being curable. Even if that shoe drops next season or the season after, long after Herschel is presumably out of the story, it would transform the meaning of everything we've seen.

I think it's pretty unlikely that being a rotting corpse is curable.

 

[Silvercrest]

All that would change even if there were a possibility that Herschel may be right about zombie-ism being curable. Even if that shoe drops next season or the season after, long after Herschel is presumably out of the story, it would transform the meaning of everything we've seen.

That's true, but it's also unlikely in the extreme. It was that sort of thinking that led to my conclusion above. I don't know what "curing zombie-ism" would really mean, but it would have to encompass curing the large, graphic, and extremely mortal wounds that killed the people in the first place.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I suspect the Twilight phenomenon is different and appeals to a different market (plus, movies and TV are very different types of businesses) but both point to the strong appeal of sci-fi/fantasy, which is great. Mainly I just want TWD's shining example to kick more cable networks in the ass to get them doing more sci fi, especially space opera. If people like zombies, they'll love aliens and robots!

I thought Shane's demonstration was pretty good. How else do you prove that something isn't normally alive, except that it can't be normally killed? That got me thinking, though. Herschel may think the walkers can cured-- but apart from the fact that they're feral and unreasoning, there's also the fact that most of them have big gaping holes with stuff leaking out. Wounds that are beyond modern medicine. If he thinks those can be healed too, that's some serious denial.

Or how about Bicycle Girl? How is she supposed to be "cured"? (And why aren't more zombies like her, with huge chunks missing? Anyway...) But the dilemma is, how can this show just let Shane be right about everything? I'm not pro- or anti-Shane, I just think there needs to be another shoe dropping here sometime.

 

[DarthTom]

I suspect the Twilight phenomenon is different and appeals to a different market (plus, movies and TV are very different types of businesses) but both point to the strong appeal of sci-fi/fantasy, which is great. Mainly I just want TWD's shining example to kick more cable networks in the ass to get them doing more sci fi, especially space opera. If people like zombies, they'll love aliens and robots!

This may be the wrong thread for this discussion but I don't think younger audiences today would ever buy a ST type of sci-fi TV show any longer. My sense is that anything that has a hope of flying has to be considerably more edgy than Trek ever was which is why TWD works.

As anside I was suprirsed last night that AMC didn't bleep out when Carl said, 'bullshit,' whereas Comedy Central bleeps out any profanity coming out of John Stewart's mouth - and they are both in late night time slots on regular cable.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Ooh you're right about "bullshit" - that was pretty gutsy (but it needed to be there, to show something important about how Carl is taking on an adult persona too quickly) - I forget whether I'm watching basic or premium cable so stuff like that goes right past me.

And I think Star Trek could be adapted to be gutsier and more cable-ish, for example on Showtime, without losing its essentially optimistic character. The old, canned-episode format could never work. But there's a way to do "edgy" without it turning into nuBSG.