The truth about Discovery and the Prime universe.

[Ithekro]

As seen, a CG model of the TOS Enterprise can look very good, even on a modern screen. Since this is an CBS All Access show, and not a theatrical movie, they don't need to bring her up to movie level if they don't need it. Plus it would only be needed as a background ship, probably only once to establish the time period. Then they wouldn't need it again until they do.

 

[Mudd]

RIght, that's why they're not changing the Klingons either.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

The audience simply has to buy it or it doesn't work (One good example was the evolution of phasers during TNG). As the producers noted way back during TOS, the show is being made today for today's audience, not for futurists or for some future generation.

And yet TNG's phasers look nothing like contemporary firearms! I guess the general audience stopped watching TNG because the crew was firing with what looked like a TV remote control. Not plausible/believable enough for today's audience.

Someone used a CG model if the TOS Enterprise and put it in a scene from the first Abrams movie, lit as Abrams had lit his ship. The thing looked amazing. And that is just using tge techniques Abrams devised for his model. Can you imagine if professionals took full advantage of the design?

http://www.theverge.com/2015/3/10/8185787/star-trek-original-enterprise-new-movies

WOW! These look fu(<ing incredible! I dare anyone to say that it doesn't look beautiful!

 

[KennyB]

Neat. But in each shot, it seemed the Enterprise was darkened to the point of masking most of the details.

Though, you'd have no problem selling me (45 year-old, life long fan) on using the original Enterprise. But, I'm not the target audience of Discovery or the Abrams films (even though I like them). Sometime the truth does burn to a degree, but it is what it is.

Yup me too......45 year old life long fan......and I have no problem with them updating and revising the looks. Maybe I'm just used to it having dealt with it in almost every movie, show, or season of Trek out there. It is just part of the deal at this point to me.

 

[BillJ]

Maybe I'm just used to it having dealt with it in almost every movie, show, or season of Trek out there. It is just part of the deal at this point to me.

That's the real rub. This isn't the first time things have underwent change (Romulan ridges, anyone?) and we have this outcry like we are sitting on Alderaan when it was hit by the Death Star.

I mean, damn, the various Enterprise models in TOS and TNG don't even fucking match.

 

[Ithekro]

RIght, that's why they're not changing the Klingons either.

If the Klingons are going to be a major deal in the series, that you make them a major deal in the series as you want.

But if you want to put a marker in place to say "hey this is around the time of Kirk" than you drop a CG TOS Connie in the background at the local starbase and leave. You can change literally everything else in the show, but leave the ship there would be enough to clue the audience into "when" the show takes place, without having to waste too much exposition time on it that can be spent on the plot. Like having a show about an alien invasion taking place in the 1950s where most of the film takes place in the aftermath of the devastation. Instead of dwelling telling when things happened, you simply make sure you have a bunch of vintage 1950s cars on the road during one of the major fight scenes or as part of one of the ruined city scenes. You never even have to put up a year or have anyone even mention anything about what was going on in the world at that time...the cars are enough to clue people in on when this happened. Just as having a vintage 2250s era starship (only known one to exist worldwide for easy recognition at this point is the TOS Connie) sitting in the background would set the time period for Star Trek Discovery without having to do anything else. you can literally change everything else in the entire known history of Star Trek and get away with it, but if you want to setup a known setting or era, the easiest things to do is drop in a known starship and change everything else.

And I would point out that they have done this in some way for all the previous Star Treks. Usually they put in a known actor to keep to audience attached for the TOS through TMP eras. First with just Spock, and then later the whole bridge crew as they moved through the movies. For TNG, they had the Excelsior in the pilot to help establish size of the new Enterprise and tie into the TMP era being in the past, along with old McCoy. For DS9 and VOY they had a direct crossover/passing of the touch moments for their pilots. For ENT, they have Cochrane's massage. For 2009 they have old "Prime" Spock, plus they showed the lives of Kirk and Spock from birth to the "present". Now what will they do for Discovery?

 

[KennyB]

That's the real rub. This isn't the first time things have underwent change (Romulan ridges, anyone?) and we have this outcry like we are sitting on Alderaan when it was hit by the Death Star.

I mean, damn, the various Enterprise models in TOS and TNG don't even fucking match.

Other fan bases freak a bit but nobody cries and whines like a Trek fan......WE'RE NUMBER 1!!!!!!!! I'm remembering why I took a 10 year break from the BBS........

 

[Ithekro]

But that is the thing. The TOS Constitution has more or less been seen in all the TV series of Star Trek. From 1966 to 2005. It was even in the last episode of ENT. Yes it was changed for the 2009 movie series set in a different timeline. Yet they still made a model for a cut scene from Into Darkness that was the TOS Connie. There is no reason to need to change it if they don't have to do so. It would be easier to just use it as is since it isn't the main ship of the show, nor the plot relevant ship of the show. It be a background ship in all likely instances unless the plot somehow needs a Federation starship to show up that is a known Constitution-class ship. Otherwise they'll just use some other model like they are doing without even needing to make a Constitution model of any kind. They just don't mention any known Constitutions that would appear on screen and they can pretend they are elsewhere....like all the other starship types from Starfleet for the entire run of TOS, when all we ever saw were a half dozen or so Connies plus USS Enterprise.

 

[Longinus]

How does it "in detail" look like a fifty year old design? Because it isn't covered in greeblies? That is the fashion today, started in the 70s. Can you imagine if the aesthetic that model was designed to work with - smooth surfaces played upon by reflections, shadows and colors - were employed using today's tools? It wouldn't look dated. It would look entirely novel.

For some reason many set designers are afraid of clean and minimalistic designs these days. I thought that Kelvin universe Enterprise bridge was horrible, but after looking the stills I realised it actually has a lot of cool elements and nice basic design. It is just that it is so fucking cluttered with needless crap and you're blinded with eight million lights that the overall impression is a mess. Get rid of half of the stuff and 90% of lights and it would look really good.

Someone used a CG model if the TOS Enterprise and put it in a scene from the first Abrams movie, lit as Abrams had lit his ship. The thing looked amazing. And that is just using tge techniques Abrams devised for his model. Can you imagine if professionals took full advantage of the design?

http://www.theverge.com/2015/3/10/8185787/star-trek-original-enterprise-new-movies

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PixelMagic/media/ent_reveal_2.jpg.html

Those look pretty damn neat. That being said, I think the original Connie would work well with TMP refit level surface detailing. I don't consider refit to be overgreebled.

 

[Kemaiku]

They were just too sick of the fanrage should they do so.

Discovery has enough of a gap now that they consider everything to be fair game for change.

 

[Mudd]

If the Klingons are going to be a major deal in the series, that you make them a major deal in the series as you want.

But if you want to put a marker in place to say "hey this is around the time of Kirk" than you drop a CG TOS Connie in the background at the local starbase and leave.

You keep saying this. There is no indication thus far that the Discovery folks intend any such approach to the material. None.

Now then...they've been shooting for just over two weeks, now. How long do you suppose they've scheduled principal photography for the pilot to be? Presumably it's a two-hour story; maybe about a month?

 

[JD]

I find mindboggling that how to so many people 23rd century tech have to look like 2017 tech or it is not 'believable.' How the fuck is it believable that a tech from centuries from now would look like it had been designed today?

I have said may times that tweaking the details and quality of the props is absolutely fine. But there is no need to jettison the 60's aesthetics, it is no less believable for future tech than 2017 aesthetic. For all we know in the future computers will look like art nouveau sculptures.

There is no way they will be using the TOS designs for the majority of what we see in this show.
If they want this to be taken seriously as a prestige 2017 series, there is no way they are going to use 50 year old designs. They could get away with it in the earlier shows as a one or two time nostalgic gimmick, but if we're seeing this stuff regularly then it will have fit in with the modern aesthetic. It doesn't matter if it's realistic or not, all that matters if it fits in with modern production designers ideas of what will look good to a modern audience. They'll probably leave it similar enough to be recognizable, but that'll be it.
As for the Enterprise specifically, I could see them sticking with the same basic shape, but it'll definitely be a lot more detailed than any of the earlier versions.

 

[Ithekro]

IF they don't want to touch it at all that is fine. Just avoid using the Connie at all. That is the simple solution. No Enterprise, no cross overs. Nothing at all to connect it with the past that isn't say the ENT era stuff. It could be anywhen and if they don't specifically mention anything they can get away with it. The only thing connecting the show to Star Trek will then be species names, political and organization names. Historical names, and the Starfleet insignia on their uniforms.

 

[Kemaiku]

Why avoid it? because a few fans will weep into their laptops alone?

They'll use whatever iconic parts of Trek they want, updated as necessary for 2017, which so far seems to be all of it.

 

[Ithekro]

If they touch stuff like that and change it massively, they are forced to explain stuff, which takes away from the plot, or needlessly puts the audience out of the show when that isn't needed.

There is no real reason to mess with the basics of the TOS Connie design.. Saucer, a neck and two connecting pylons, three cylinders, red spinning glowing parts on the upper cylinders, metal dish at the front of the lower cylinder, lit domes on the top and bottom of the saucers...paint some sort of white with basic black lettering, fleet pennant, and traditional running lights. Changing it would seen unneeded since it be easier to just use the basic idea as it is since it isn't dated in style, just detail. At least if they are running with the show being set in the 2250s.

 

[Noname Given]

This is definitely a miss understanding. The new universe that has no relation with Prime Universe doesn't mean that it's not Star Trek. I can give you an example, by using a Japanese Anime Franchise. Gundam. There are a lot of Gundam series. A lot of them has the setting that different from the original Gundam world setting / universe. The story is different, the technology is also has different taste. But they still Gundam, because they still has similarity with the original Gundam World, although at the same time different.

The universe is new, clean. But you still can put the similar races like Vulcan, Klingon etc with new aesthetic, behavior, history, etc. The ship can be the same USS Enterprise, with similarity basic model, but give the artist a great deal of freedom to make it better. The tech can be similar or different, depend on the time when this series is made.

JJ-Abram is also happen in a new universe, but they still have a relation with Prime Universe, and not only that, they break the Prime Universe by destroying the Romulus. So why not just make another new Star Trek universe that won't disturb the two existing universe so the studio can expand the creativity without afraid of the past continuity?

Prime Universe = complete
JJ-Abram = Paramount Picture for Movie
new Universe = new series

But to be fair - even in Gundam they usually state which universe the show takes place in. Hell they even recently went back to a straight on continuation of the 'Universal Century' Gundam continuity with Gundam 0096 Unicorn. So, yeah, Gundam has effectively multiple 'universes' on continuity; but when they pick one of them for a new Gundam series, they usually stick very closely (even with the Mecha designs) TO that chosen continuity.

A better example would be the 'Space Battleship Yamato: 2199' series where they rebooted and retold the original 'Space Battleship Yamato' series story using current animation styles and techniques (and are continuing this year with 'Space Battleship Yamato: 2202' which is a retelling of the second season 'White Comet Empire'/Gatlantis' storyline.) In these retellings they used the existing 40+ year continuity and basically made a better story overall; while still paying homage and respecting the original production from the 1970ies.

If ST: D did something like that, I'd be all for it too.

And yet TNG's phasers look nothing like contemporary firearms! I guess the general audience stopped watching TNG because the crew was firing with what looked like a TV remote control. Not plausible/believable enough for today's audience.

Oh please TNG's 'Type II' Phasers looked like Hand-Held vacuums (aka 'Dust Busters').

 

[Ithekro]

And to be fair John Eaves could probably draw the TOS Connie in his sleep.

 

[Kemaiku]

They are forced to explain stuff.

Not remotely. The general audience don't give the slighest fuck, most fans will roll with it as they have here, if a tiny portion of the fandom whine, who cares?

 

[uniderth]

Heck, in the 24th century PADD's don't even multitask.

However, this is not explicitly stated. If iPads/tablets were dirt cheap would you only have and use one?

Someone used a CG model if the TOS Enterprise and put it in a scene from the first Abrams movie, lit as Abrams had lit his ship. The thing looked amazing. And that is just using tge techniques Abrams devised for his model. Can you imagine if professionals took full advantage of the design?

http://www.theverge.com/2015/3/10/8185787/star-trek-original-enterprise-new-movies

That could still be improved upon but it's what should have been in the JJmovies!

I know, know, people will cite the refit Enterprise as why we just have to change things so they look better on screen. But with some good lighting, texturing, and animation a cgi model of the "plain jane" classic Enterprise could look realistic and epic. No need for this reboot bullshit.

Not remotely. The general audience don't give the slighest fuck, most fans will roll with it as they have here, if a tiny portion of the fandom whine, who cares?

Or just make stuff fit with what is established. Then, as you say, the general audience won't give the slightest fuck, most fans will just roll with it. But now we get the tiny portion of fandom on board. So everyone wins.

 

[Mudd]

IF they don't want to touch it at all that is fine.

Pretty sure they're not asking permission.

If they touch stuff like that and change it massively, they are forced to explain stuff...

No, they aren't.

No need for this reboot bullshit.

No "need" for anything. Yet they are rebooting the look - they've said so and we're seeing it.