Poll The TAS Redux That Might Have Been

[CorporalCaptain]

In "Spectre of the Gun," the guys are sent to Westworld because Kirk's ancestors pioneered the American west. That's a clear reference to white folks. And, same year, Adam refers to Kirk as "you know, Great White Captain upstairs."

Those are good finds, but I'm going to have to say "no" to both objections, as necessary show-stoppers.

Blacks were a part of American history on the frontier. There were black pioneers. There were communities that excluded blacks, and the existence of communities that excluded blacks is proof of their presence. The erasure of blacks from the frontier narrative is typical of how the American (mytho)historical narrative was woven in the 19th and 20th centuries. We can do better in the 21st, and I'd like to think the people of the 23rd century will definitely do better. I'm not going to go deeply down this rabbit hole, because this is too off-topic, but I will provide a single link to kick off further reading, for those who are interested.

Black Cowboys at “Home on the Range” — https://blogs.loc.gov/loc/2022/03/black-cowboys-at-home-on-the-range

As a descendant of black pioneers who were not always welcome, such a Kirk would bring an additional dynamic to first contact with the xenophobic Melkotians.

As to "great white captain" (or "Great White Captain"), the term Great White Father refers to the President of the United States, regardless of his or her race [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Great White Father]. It also refers to any person in a position of authority. Regarding its origin, Collins Dictionary speculates that it is "after the epithet supposedly used for the U.S. president by Native Americans in the 19th century" [https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/great-white-father], which is plausible. The dynamic here was hegemonic vs native; by extension the salient point is not that the captain is literally white, but that he is Herbert. Even Obama was a Great White Father [https://jeffersonhour.com/blog/whathappens].

 

[aridas sofia]

“As to "great white captain" (or "Great White Captain"), the term Great White Father refers to the President of the United States, regardless of his or her race”

I beg your pardon but this is a ridiculous and ahistorical statement. It was a term used by Native Americans that in part contrasted their skin color with that of the White settlers and in particular, their leader- who was and always had been White. (Previous to its application to the US president, it was used to describe the British, French, and Spanish kings). The term had many meanings and carried the weight of much history, but always identified the differences between the two parties dealing with one another. I met a Sioux in Montana while Obama was running for president in 2008 who said as much - that his people could find common ground with Obama precisely because he would not be yet another “Great White Father”.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

“As to "great white captain" (or "Great White Captain"), the term Great White Father refers to the President of the United States, regardless of his or her race”

I beg your pardon but this is a ridiculous and ahistorical statement. It was a term used by Native Americans to contrast their skin color with that of the White settlers and in particular, their leader- who was and always had been White. I met a Sioux in Montana while Obama was running for president in 2008 who said as much - that his people could find common ground with Obama precisely because he would not be yet another “Great White Father”.

A) Take it up with Merriam-Webster and the two other citations I provided, including one which uses it in the context of Obama in particular.

B) It wasn't until Obama when we even had the counterexample of a non-white president.

C) Terms transcend their original meaning. See in particular the other sense of the term, involving anybody in a leadership position.

 

[aridas sofia]

The “citation you provided” from Webster said the term referred to the President of the United States - who had always been White. You are therefore saying that a term that defines someone as White, who had always been White, had nothing to do with him being White. As I said, ridiculous.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The “citation you provided” from Webster said the term referred to the President of the United States - who had always been White. You are therefore saying that a term that defines someone as White, who had always been White, had nothing to do with him being White. As I said, ridiculous.

Really? It's been well over a decade since that hasn't always been the case, with examples of it being used to refer to Obama.

Here's another [https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/o...12/18/this-great-white-father-seems-different]:

This Great White Father seems different
By: Allen Abel
Posted: 1:00 AM CST Saturday, Dec. 18, 2010

[...]

“Still coming to plead with the Great White Father?” I jibed to the leader of the Jamul nation of Southern California, adult population 56, unemployment rate 80 per cent.

“Yeah,” laughed Kenneth Meza. “But he ain’t white no more! What’ll we do?”​

Case closed.

 

[aridas sofia]

The problem with your conclusion is that during the period when “Great White Father” was used, the US president was exclusively White and male. Just as the descriptive says. I appreciate what you are trying to do but it neglects history. The function of that phrase was to psychologically dominate a people who in the 18th and 19th centuries were independent. It was meant to operate at a diplomatic level, when representatives of Indian nations would come to Washington to negotiate over, among other things, giving up their land. That hasn’t been the case since the end of the Plains Wars. All the tribes and peoples are either on reservations or are integrated into American society in some fashion. There hasn’t been a “Great White Father” in a very long time because their has been no need to convince Native Americans of the domination of White Americans over them. Obama wasn’t called “Great White Father” in anything but satire not only because he wasn’t White, but because there hasn’t been any use for such a patronizing term in over a century.

But you go on believing what you want. We live in an age when plain and simple evidence, like “White” meaning “White”, apparently means nothing to some people. That is as amusing as it is sad, but I’ll play along for one more round. Tell me please, if “Great White Father” refers to the US president whether he is White or not, why not use the phrase “Great Father” instead? The historical record shows that was used much more commonly and DID in fact, refer to the US president. The historical record shows the inclusion of “White” in Wild West literature was precisely to accentuate feelings of difference between the White audiences those stories were aimed at and the Native peoples. Why use the word “White” at all if it wasn’t referring to skin color?

 

[Tosk]

Anyway, mark me down as someone who would love to see old audio of the TOS cast repurposed into new material. Simply re-animating TAS seems mildly pointless, but to have the eps pulled apart at the seams and then stitched back together with new material would be great. Use the TOS cast audio, re-record the guest characters with new actors, re-score, re-animate, tweak the material to great effect. Then make eps out of the full cast computer games. It doesn't take away from the original stuff existing. If anything (in the case of old games) it would actually semi-preserve archival audio.

Look, just do it, okay?

 

[Warped9]

“Great White Captain” isn’t likely something you would hear today, but back in the 1960s, when westerns were still popular, that could be taken as an obvious play on “Great White Father” often heard in westerns. Adam in “The Way To Eden” is apparently being a smartass where he is equating himself and his companions with peaceful Indians and Kirk representing the untrustworthy military/government.

In-universe it actually seems odd that a citizen of the 23rd century would use such a phrase unless ancient western themed entertainment might have been a thing in popular media around the time. Or maybe, despite his delinquent behaviour, Adam happens to be very well read in terms of history.

In context of the episode I suggest Adam’s use of the phrase “Great White Captain” isn’t meant as a reference to Kirk’s race, but rather a dig at Kirk’s position, authority and general mindset. And this dig is emphasized through the hippies’ repeated use of the name Herbert in referring to Kirk.

Kirk is obviously established as white—no question. If someone wants to reboot TOS with a clean sheet then obviously they could opt to make Kirk black. But if they want to use the character for stories firmly established in TOS’ continuity then Kirk has to be white because otherwise it woukd be totally nonsensical.

 

[aridas sofia]

“In context of the episode I suggest Adam’s use of the phrase “Great White Captain” isn’t meant as a reference to Kirk’s race, but rather a dig at Kirk’s position, authority and general mindset. ”

Here is the problem with that assessment- a dig at Kirk’s position, authority and general mindset that refers to the example of the US president and Native Americans is thoroughly imbued with the racial distinction between the two. There was a White society, and a Red society. The president wasn’t just the Great Father. He was the Great WHITE Father. Like I mentioned above, a lot of that had to do with later 19th century dramatic treatments of the issue that accentuated race, and that is no doubt what the Trek reference is playing upon. But it still is about race. Not race in the sense only of White and Red, but of empowered versus not empowered. “White” in this sense then is a proclamation of power by the US government, and an acquiescence to that fact by peoples using the term.

 

[Warped9]

I suggest it’s matter of interpretation. If one chooses to see it as a deliberate remark on Kirk’s race or as a dig at Kirk’s position of authority.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But you go on believing what you want. We live in an age when plain and simple evidence, like “White” meaning “White”, apparently means nothing to some people. That is as amusing as it is sad, but I’ll play along for one more round. Tell me please, if “Great White Father” refers to the US president whether he is White or not, why not use the phrase “Great Father” instead?

Given that I've cited actual evidence of its usage in this context, one acknowledged and affirmatively responded to by a Native American chief, I will go on believing what the facts say. If you note in the Merriam-Webster entry, "Great Father" is cited as a less common variant.

Have you ever wondered why the term "black box" is used for airplane flight recorders, when the box isn't actually black?

Have you ever wondered why the term "red herring" can be applied to misleading things that are neither red nor herrings?

It's because language is metaphorical, and because etymologies indicate how terms originated, but they do not limit how terms end up being used, as they are developed in the face of changing realities and needs of speakers.

Anyway, to return to the point, neither "Spectre" nor "Eden" would be contradicted by recasting Kirk with a black actor, was the point, even exactly as scripted. But no doubt heads would explode. Not literally, of course.

edited to add -

Obama wasn’t called “Great White Father” in anything but satire not only because he wasn’t White, but because there hasn’t been any use for such a patronizing term in over a century.

No, the citations I provided were not satire. They were, however, plausibly and arguably sarcastic. Huge difference.

In "Eden," Adam was being sarcastic, not satirical. Again, huge difference.

 

[aridas sofia]

Black box and red herring are specious analogies. The red herring actually was red, because it was smoked, and its strong smell made it send dogs astray, thus misleading. Red in this instance is less about the color - though smoked herring are often red - than about the smoke.

As for black box, you’re right- words can have more than one meaning, and in this case, black refers to opaqueness. But if this is what you are saying, that white has more than one meaning in the phrase, I ask you again to provide evidence of what meaning “White” has in the phrase “Great White Father” that does not refer to race? Why was the more common “Great Father” not used? I am telling you it has to do with the power relationship, that has everything to do with the color, and you keep babbling. Give some meaning for the word “White” in this instance or admit you have none.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Black box and red herring are specious analogies. The red herring actually was red, because it was smoked, and its strong smell made it send dogs astray, thus misleading. Red in this instance is less about the color - though smoked herring are often red - than about the smoke.

As for black box, you’re right- words can have more than one meaning, and in this case, black refers to opaqueness. But if this is what you are saying, that white has more than one meaning in the phrase, I ask you again to provide evidence of what meaning “White” has in the phrase “Great White Father” that does not refer to race? Why was the more common “Great Father” not used? I am telling you it has to do with the power relationship, that has everything to do with the color, and you keep babbling. Give some meaning for the word “White” in this instance or admit you have none.

You're confusing term origin with term usage. I chose red herring as an example precisely because it was red, when it was a herring used to confuse dogs. But things are called red herrings today which are neither literally red nor literally herrings.

When "Great White Father" is used generally, of course white is an allusion to race. The word is allusion. It alludes to the historical dynamic of Americans of European descent dictating the fate of Native Americans. But it is not necessarily an allusion to the race of the person who the term is applied to, as demonstrated in the citations, and the usage of the term is not confined to the 18th and 19th centuries.

The allusive and not literal character of the word "white" is all the more so in the second sense of the term ("a person in a position of authority").

 

[aridas sofia]

Now we have found a basis for agreement - White is entirely about race, but race insofar as it equates to power. And that is how the term could indeed have applied to Obama, in that he was the president of what the Native Americans might call a White power structure. It still is absurd to call him that however, as the Sioux I talked with pointed out, because the word does matter. Obama was part of a culture that has been victimized and pitted against the dominant power. You might as well call him “Uncle Tom” as call him “Great White Father”.

In the case of “The Way to Eden”, “White” means “Starfleet” and/or “Federation”, ie the power structure against which Sevrin’s followers are poised. But if they called Uhura “Great White Mother” because she was Starfleet, it would be as absurd as with Obama, because she was part of a culture that had itself historically been victimized and pitted against the dominant power. To call her “Great White Mother” would neglect that fact, or worse.

Thus yes, “White” means “power” but not without context.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sisko's race was part of the actual plot in some episodes

And I care about this…why, exactly?

I am unconcerned as to whether a character’s race is plot relevant. In April’s case, for example, it’s pretty obvious just by looking at him. In TAS, he’s obviously white; in SNW, he’s obviously black. It doesn’t ing need to be important to the story, or even spoken in dialogue. All you have to do is LOOK at him.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Now we have found a basis for agreement - White is entirely about race, but race insofar as it equates to power.

I'll take it.

In the case of “The Way to Eden”, “White” means “Starfleet” and/or “Federation”, ie the power structure against which Sevrin’s followers are poised.

I agree with this quote exactly. This was how I put it, originally:

The dynamic here was hegemonic vs native; by extension the salient point is not that the captain is literally white, but that he is Herbert.

While you don't seem to agree with this exactly, in my view that's because you don't consider the required mode of sarcasm viable.

But if they called Uhura “Great White Mother” because she was Starfleet, it would be as absurd as with Obama, because she was part of a culture that had itself historically been victimized and pitted against the dominant power. To call her “Great White Mother” would neglect that fact, or worse.

Well, it certainly wouldn't make sense if she were not exercising any power over them, which the communications officer didn't (never mind it was Palmer this week at communications.) As a perceived lackey of the hegemony, rather than someone in a leadership position, it would have made more sense to call her something else, anyway.

Anyway, I'm glad it turns out that we agree on some of this.

While the chief point of disagreement seems to involve the viability of certain types of sarcasm, I think we do more or less agree on everything else, enough to move on.

Now we have found a basis for agreement - White is entirely about race, but race insofar as it equates to power. And that is how the term could indeed have applied to Obama, in that he was the president of what the Native Americans might call a White power structure. It still is absurd to call him that however, as the Sioux I talked with pointed out, because the word does matter. Obama was part of a culture that has been victimized and pitted against the dominant power. You might as well call him “Uncle Tom” as call him “Great White Father”.

In the case of “The Way to Eden”, “White” means “Starfleet” and/or “Federation”, ie the power structure against which Sevrin’s followers are poised. But if they called Uhura “Great White Mother” because she was Starfleet, it would be as absurd as with Obama, because she was part of a culture that had itself historically been victimized and pitted against the dominant power. To call her “Great White Mother” would neglect that fact, or worse.

Thus yes, “White” means “power” but not without context.

 

[urbandefault]

Well, this thread has certainly gone ... somewhere.

Jim, pass the bourbon.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

“Perceived lackey of the hegemony.” Good one.

Gotta love that butt-clenched activism...

 

[Shawnster]

Which hasn't stopped some fans doing some impressive over-thinking of it!

I appreciate the Bonaventure so much that my head canon is that the Constellation from "Doomsday Machine" was a Bonaventure type. Explains the NCC being in the 1000s, Kirk's apparent confusion where aux control was, yet still keeps with Spock's description that the Constellation fit the configuration of a Starship (which is another head canon that Starship was a specific term restricted to space ships that fit certain criteria).

Edit: Don’t even mention James Bond. Not only is it just another example of recasting, but each new Bond is a reboot anyway (otherwise he’d be a hundred years old by now).

Meh, my head canon is Bond is a job description. A role. Maybe at one time he was a real agent, but now it's another layer of secrecy. An agent is promoted to the position of James Bond as needed, and sometimes his back story is changed accordingly.

 

[Mytran]

And I care about this…why, exactly?

I am unconcerned as to whether a character’s race is plot relevant. In April’s case, for example, it’s pretty obvious just by looking at him. In TAS, he’s obviously white; in SNW, he’s obviously black. It doesn’t ing need to be important to the story, or even spoken in dialogue. All you have to do is LOOK at him.

Yes and by looking at Saavik in ST2 and ST3 it is obvious that the character is being portrayed by different actresses, yet the intention of the fictional world is that we accept them as one and the same. Since April's ethnicity was never an element of his character, changing it becomes trivial.
It might even be trivial in-universe, as put best by @CorporalCaptain earlier in this thread:

In a universe in which Kirk can have himself surgically altered to pass as a Romulan, which is a different species, you're going to argue that that there no possible in-universe explanation for a change in physical appearance while staying within the same species?

It's only a few decades later where medicine has advanced to the point where Quark can undergo a complete gender reassignment procedure, on a whim, completed within a few hours and convincing enough for a fellow Ferengi to see nothing out of place.
In such a society, I would not be surprised if changing the colour of one's skin was seen any differently to changing the colour of one's hair today.