The Son'a

[DonIago]

Since the Baku weren't native to the planet, it could be argued that moving them wouldn't be "asking them to "slowly die"", but rather returning them to their original life cycle.

Heck, for all we know the Baku looked like and behaved like the Son'a until they found the planet.

 

[Starfury]

Since the Baku weren't native to the planet, it could be argued that moving them wouldn't be "asking them to "slowly die"", but rather returning them to their original life cycle.

"Who the hell are we to determine the next course of evolution for these people?"

 

[DonIago]

Who the hell are they to sit on something that could help millions of people when there's only 600 of them, which they only found by blind luck?

As was said to Buffy the Vampire Slayer once upon a time, "You're not better than us; you're just luckier than us."

 

[Starfury]

Who the hell are they to sit on something that could help millions of people

Aw come on. It's not as if the Federation citizens were starving. They fought a war because they kept sending ships into dominion space and got a beating. "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home"

 

[sonak]

Eminent Domain does appply because the planet was never the Baku's. Even Picard, a supporter of the Baku, acknowledges that the planet is in the Federation.

My house is in the United States. It doesn't make it the property of the Federal Government until they seize it. Because it moved over the course of 300 years to Federation hands, that's making my point for me. They have a longer claim on it than the Federation does. This is moving the Native Americans off their lands. They migrated from what is now Asia over Alaska into North America. They were indigenous to the region. Eminent Domain certainly does apply. They are not Federation citizens. They were not consulted about the future of this world, as the two examples you have stated, have been. Without Data going crazy, the Federation would've killed 600 people, asking them to "slowly die." Like the Ba'ku or not, that is what they were being forced to do.

Why do the Baku have more of a claim on it than the Son'a, who WERE ACTUALLY DYING as the story begins? Why would the Federation want to get involved in what was essentially a civil war, while helping the side THAT REFUSED TO HELP OUT THE FEDERATION in any way?!?!?

The Son'a were willing partners of the Federation who were going to share the resource. They were valuable strategic partners during a war, and they had a legit claim on the planet.


The Baku were Luddite pacifists who were offering the Federation NOTHING, and Picard takes their side, turning the Son'a into DOMINION ALLIES


All because Picard is a colossal hypocrite in this movie who wants to get laid.

 

[Makarov]

If the Sona didn't have the villain, I would totally side with them over the Baku. Take your peaceful village somewhere else and let me de-age myself!

 

[DonIago]

Who the hell are they to sit on something that could help millions of people

Aw come on. It's not as if the Federation citizens were starving. They fought a war because they kept sending ships into dominion space and got a beating. "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home"

You're right. We should stop pursuing a cure for cancer immediately.

 

[Starfury]

Why would the Federation want to get involved in what was essentially a civil war, while helping the side THAT REFUSED TO HELP OUT THE FEDERATION in any way?!?!?

But... no one actually asked them to help. No one. Dougherty and the Sona just decided to relocate them... secretly. Once it came out the Baku were pissed. Who could blame them?

I mean... they did welcome some of the sona at the end of the movie, did they not? All it took was an hones mediator (Picard).

 

[Hartzilla2007]

There is no reason to believe that the Baku wouldn't have the same access to the radiation

Except for Dougherty flat out saying this was the case.

Who the hell are they to sit on something that could help millions of people

Or the federation could remember to use its own technology could do it probably better an faster than some particles that they just found that do something that only now do they seem to care about.

I mean the transporter can age and deage a person at will with a little tweaking and Pulaski seemed to think LaForge's eyes could be repaired by existing Federation medical technology as of TNG's second season aka about a decade before Insurrection.

So exactly why does the federation need this stuff again?

 

[R. Star]

Hate to tell it to you but the whole Baku rejection of technology and the "when you build a machine you take something from the man" is nonsense. Go back and look at their village again.

Irrigated fields with gates, dams, tools, metal forges, carts, spinning wheels, that's all technology and/or machines. To say nothing of the rock quarry and mines they had to have to get all that metal and stone. Maybe not advanced technology or machines, but they still had it.

Not to mention as clean as that freaking place was they either had to have vacuum cleaners stashed away some place or be scrubbing and sweeping for hours a day. Which I guess would explain why they apprenticed for 30 years if they're spending most of their time keeping the place clean.

Without some technology, they would have to wrestle their food with bare hands and live in nomadic wilderness, according to your definition.

--- Irrigation was first used in 1800 BCE.
--- The first dams were constructed in 3,000 BCE.
--- The Wheel was introduced in the 4,000 BCE.
--- First Copper Mines were in 3,800 BCE
--- The first stone tools, 4,000 BCE

So...not exactly a replicator and a positronic brain. Can they kill en masse with these tools? "Verge of self-annihilation" because of technology. What is happening with people and climate change (not to mention food budgets now?) Co-op farming and cities with areas for farming. Think about it. They cannot do irreparable damage to the world with the tools that they have.

It's not my definition, but the one in the movie. I'm not the one preaching against the evil's of technology or spouting out nonsense like, "When you build a machine to do the work of a man, you take something away from the man."

When they can't even qualify those remarks with their own behavior, it does make them look silly at best.

I wonder if the Baku just let their people die like they did in Paradise when they get sick.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Since the Baku weren't native to the planet, it could be argued that moving them wouldn't be "asking them to "slowly die"", but rather returning them to their original life cycle.

Oh, so the federation gets to use it but the Ba'ku don't because the federation gets to decide who gets to be immortal or not, how very heroic of them

 

[DonIago]

One good eye-roll deserves another...I never said that I felt the Baku shouldn't have access to the benefit, I just think they should have the same access as everyone else.

 

[Commishsleer]

Doesn't the planet belong to both the Baku and the Sona? And if they want to keep the 'fountain of youth' to themselves - well that's their business but is it really Federation business one way or the other?

If anybody wants to visit the planet, does Picard plan on diverting Federation ships from say the Dominion War to guard the planet - so that the Baku can live without interference.

I know they probably don't actually need guards because the planet is in the Briar patch but if word went out about eternal life I'm sure a few hearty souls would try it. Hey I would try it myself. Maybe the Baku would welcome them. If they chose to live under their conditions. But what if they refused? Should the Federation leave a force there to protect the Baku when they don't seem to have any spare to protect Earth on occasion.

 

[Khan444]

Since the Baku weren't native to the planet, it could be argued that moving them wouldn't be "asking them to "slowly die"", but rather returning them to their original life cycle.

Oh, so the federation gets to use it but the Ba'ku don't because the federation gets to decide who gets to be immortal or not, how very heroic of them

Yes, an the Ba'ku are so heroic for choosing their own immortality over the lives of countless others while there's a massive war going on. Sorry, but it isn't their planet to begin with, and I'm taking Billions of lives potentially saved over the slight miscomfort of 600 self-righteous asshole hippies.

 

[sonak]

Doesn't the planet belong to both the Baku and the Sona? And if they want to keep the 'fountain of youth' to themselves - well that's their business but is it really Federation business one way or the other?

If anybody wants to visit the planet, does Picard plan on diverting Federation ships from say the Dominion War to guard the planet - so that the Baku can live without interference.

I know they probably don't actually need guards because the planet is in the Briar patch but if word went out about eternal life I'm sure a few hearty souls would try it. Hey I would try it myself. Maybe the Baku would welcome them. If they chose to live under their conditions. But what if they refused? Should the Federation leave a force there to protect the Baku when they don't seem to have any spare to protect Earth on occasion.

yeah, basically the Federation either uses their fleet to guard the Baku from that point onward, or another power is going to come along and remove or kill them for the resource.


Which is just ridiculous-why is the UFP protecting a small group of Luddite pacifists who are not reciprocating in any way, when that protection has ALREADY cost them an ally, and could cause more trouble down the road?


who gets stuck with the "protecting the Baku" assignment from that point on?

 

[T'Girl]

There is no reason to believe that the Baku wouldn't have the same access to the radiation

Except for Dougherty flat out saying this was the case.

Check the dialog, Dougherty didn't say anything on that subject one way or the other. If the Baku want future access to the particles' radiation, they can get in line along with everybody else.

You know Hartzilla2007, all the other people in the galaxy with "natural evolution."

So exactly why does the federation need this stuff again?

Because it works and there's no reason not to harvest it. We've seen Starfleet gathering medical cures from various planets before.

Doesn't the planet belong to both the Baku and the Sona?

Picard: "A planet in Federation space."
Dougherty: "That's right. We have the planet."

The planet belongs to neither the Baku, nor the Sona.

If the Sona had legitimate ownership/sovereignty over the planet, what possible reason could there be to bring the Federation into the matter? They would simply beam the Baku off the surface and harvest the particles.

 

[Praetorian]

Eh, using the Romulans, as was at some point intended, might have been better, I believe.

No more muddled narrative. Feds and Romulans team up to expropriate pre-industrial race, who would be native in this case. Picards starts to doubt the goodness of the action, Romulans get fed up with Federation protocols, tension rises and then explodes.

Yes, the Romulans were, at this point, allies, but their leader could have started acting agaisnt his superior's orders (a possible anti-Federation grudge due to the past dealings on the Neutral Zone?). You can still have his first officer siding with Picard, Romulans do tend to be moral, sometimes.

You still have the somewhat gray moral dillema, but you get a focused and clear story.

Oh, and keep that Alamo style battle they had planned, I want to see Worf bat'lething some Romulans.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Yes, an the Ba'ku are so heroic for choosing their own immortality over the lives of countless others while there's a massive war going on.

A war they really don't have anything to do with and which said resource isn't very useful or do you think deaging people and curing the blind (the only things it was shown doing) is going to help with lethal injuries.

Sorry, but it isn't their planet to begin with,

But they got to it before there was a federation.

and I'm taking Billions of lives potentially saved over the slight miscomfort of 600 self-righteous asshole hippies.

Or the federation could use its own goddamned technology to do it instead of their usual cowardice about game changing tech because someone might misuse it.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

There is no reason to believe that the Baku wouldn't have the same access to the radiation

Except for Dougherty flat out saying this was the case.

Check the dialog, Dougherty didn't say anything on that subject one way or the other. If the Baku want future access to the particles' radiation, they can get in line along with everybody else.

Relevant quote from the script

DOUGHERTY
The Prime Directive doesn't
apply. These people are not
indigenous to this world. They
were never meant to be immortal.
We'll simply be restoring their
natural evolution.

PICARD
Who are we to decide the next
course of evolution for these
people?

here is the link

http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/Trek/Star_Trek_IX.htm

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I consider the Son'a to be the Vidiians 2.0. No one cares about aliens antagonists who have addiction to cosmetic surgery.