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The skydve over vulcan

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^They were wearing pretty heavily armoured space suits. Space jumping's been done before in the deleted Generstions scene and on the holodeck in Voyager, in less bulky gear.

What I want to know is: How could they breathe that high up? I guess they took tri-ox (or whatever it's called) before jumping.
 
Re: Should novels set in the JJVerse rectify the film's plot holes?

Pike calls him "Chief Engineer Olsen" a couple of times, first on the comm when they're flying through the debris field and again when the away team is being briefed on the way to the hangar deck. Even before I saw his red space suit, I was thinking "You're gonna die and Scotty will take your place, dead man." :lol:

I'll have to watch it again (sigh), but I don't think Pike actually called him "chief" engineer. I heard "engineer Olson", but I never heard him use "chief". But I could be wrong.
 
^They were wearing pretty heavily armoured space suits. Space jumping's been done before in the deleted Generstions scene and on the holodeck in Voyager, in less bulky gear.

What I want to know is: How could they breathe that high up? I guess they took tri-ox (or whatever it's called) before jumping.

I just assumed that they had a compact oxygen supply built into the suits.
 
Yeah but they didn't even heat up. The slightest nod to physics would have had them glowing a little at least.
 
Yeah but they didn't even heat up. The slightest nod to physics would have had them glowing a little at least.

This is true. There should have at least been some indication of heat disipation. We know Vulcan's (or at least the original Vulcan's) atmosphere is much thinner than Earth's. But even so, some heat should have been generated as they plummeted through the atmosphere, however thin it may be.
 
Yeah but they didn't even heat up. The slightest nod to physics would have had them glowing a little at least.

This is true. There should have at least been some indication of heat disipation. We know Vulcan's (or at least the original Vulcan's) atmosphere is much thinner than Earth's. But even so, some heat should have been generated as they plummeted through the atmosphere, however thin it may be.

I think they were in the lower atmosphere, perhaps too low to gain the velocity and friction necessary to invoke the head shield effect.

Students sent up a digicam to similar altitudes with a cell phone and got some amazing images of the earth.
 
Except that they explicitly say "entering the atmosphere" during the drop. Otherwise I would have just assumed it was a high altitude drop.
 
Yeah but they didn't even heat up. The slightest nod to physics would have had them glowing a little at least.

This is true. There should have at least been some indication of heat disipation. We know Vulcan's (or at least the original Vulcan's) atmosphere is much thinner than Earth's. But even so, some heat should have been generated as they plummeted through the atmosphere, however thin it may be.
Are you sure about that? When heat and heat-shielding has been an issue--say, for a space capsule, space shuttle, Enterprise shuttlecraft or what-have-you, making a re-entry from space--velocities involved are typically well in excess of ten thousand miles per hour, with the highest velocity being at the point the body (space capsule, shuttle, what-have-you) encounters the upper atmosphere. A human body, on the other hand, beginning just above the upper atmosphere at a velocity of near zero, relative to the planet's surface, falls and soon achieves a terminal velocity of less than two hundred miles per hour, if I'm not mistaken. Should heat even be a major concern at that kind of speed? I'm not so sure.


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Except that they explicitly say "entering the atmosphere" during the drop. Otherwise I would have just assumed it was a high altitude drop.
You also hear the silence of no air friction give way after the first minute or so to the sound of rushing air, so yeah, that fits. I'm still pretty sure that air friction would equalize the jumpers' velocity at a point well below that at which heat buildup would begin to become a serious concern. Anyone with more practical knowledge in that area, feel free to contradict me.
 
A human body, on the other hand, beginning just above the upper atmosphere at a velocity of near zero, relative to the planet's surface, falls and soon achieves a terminal velocity of less than two hundred miles per hour, if I'm not mistaken. Should heat even be a major concern at that kind of speed? I'm not so sure.

My physics education ceased a long time ago but I thought everything falls at the same rate towards the source of gravity without resistance. So, if I'm right, an empire state building would reach the same speed as a human body before hitting the atmos. Terminal velocity only occurs with wind resistance, that is, once the atmosphere has been entered.
 
Quite true. We might do calculations on the velocity the divers have when they hit the upper fringes of the atmosphere, based on how much time passes - but that'd probably be futile considering the amount of cuts.

Let's take the opposite approach. This has actually already been done, on paper: NASA seriously studied various means of returning astronauts to Earth without the benefit of a space capsule. Or more accurately, by using an entry aid that would easily fit inside a Mercury capsule, which is basically as good as none at all...

One major issue was getting the astronaut to fall: a rocket of some sort was needed, plus a targeting aid. Our STXI heroes would need none of that, since the shuttle was the aiming device, and may also have given them an initial boost with artificial gravity (although the pull of Vulcan at that altitude would have been almost the same as the pull of Vulcan at sand level). So that leaves the "entry device" angle.

Subcontractors to NASA considered two main possibilities. One was to erect a parachute or skirt of sorts to significantly increase the surface area of the astronaut (tenfold or more), so that air resistance would be high and velocity and acceleration low. No real heat shielding was included in that package. Another was based on the idea of expanding a bit of foam around the astronaut, only increasing his area fivefold or less, and using some ablative heat shielding in addition; this became the MOOSE, a system proposed for NASA use (perhaps on Gemini) or for USAF (for Dynasoar), but never adopted.

Apparently, the biggest heat concern with the MOOSE was whether the exothermic deployment of the polyurethane foam would fry the astronaut... Friction heat loads were low.

Now, our heroes minimized their surface area and maximized their speed. I could see an order of magnitude of difference in heat load there - but I'm not sure heat dissipation would be an issue as such. A bow shock of some sort would quickly emerge, and that's where we'd see ionization glow, not necessarily on the helmet itself. With the angles we were given, we might well miss the glow: it would be behind the camera in the forward shots, the possible "comet tail" would be hidden behind the heroes, and we didn't get good side views at the period of maximum deceleration.

Of course, a high tech stealth skydive exploiting ST tech to the fullest would probably feature some sort of a "trailblazer" that moved the bow shock forward and dissipated it as much as possible. A projectile flying ahead of the heroes, perhaps. Or a long but thin rod with a properly shaped tip (these are being used to modify the bow shock in planned supersonic and hypersonic aircraft). Or a forcefield version of the same.

But if we go high tech, then we have to wonder why our heroes used a parachute. Shouldn't they just have used some sort of gravity belts?

(Also, if the parachute, the harness and the suit withstood the deceleration from terminal velocity to very low touchdown speed within just a few dozen meters, why did Kirk's parachute fail on the second try? Was it due to battle damage, or was this particular chute faulty? It did appear the chute was designed for repeated use, as it had that reeling mechanism...)

Timo Saloniemi
 
If Kirk's parachute hadn't failed the second time we wouldn't have had the funny little man running through the ship saying "I can do this! I can do this!" It would have ruined the whole film.
 
True enough - but if it fails when those two guys are in a flat spin, then using it for deceleration from a deliberate maximum terminal velocity dive is a bit of a risk... The safety factor would be worse than two, which is pretty poor showing.

But sometimes military hardware has to ride at the very edge of its performance, so I'm not really faulting the Ordnance Officer or the Quartermaster for trying to get these men killed.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The poor efficiency of parachutes is another movie cliche
Since this doesn't really have anything to do with the original topic and neither does it seem to be a direct response to anything else in the thread, I'll just call it it a random thread resurrection and take the appropriate zombie control measures (i.e., thread closed.)
 
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