The sixth doctor debate

[starsuperion]

I Remember That. Tho It Did Seem Like Sidney NewMan Was A Bit More Open Minded..I Forgo The Directors Name But In The 5Th Doctor Five Doctors Special There Was An Interview Where One Director Said He Was Actively Working To Sink The Show..

In AAiSaT, Sydney was ready to fire Verity and shut the show down, but, yea, he didn't actually sabotage it, and he came around once he saw it was a hit.

yea, that's true. On a side note, if they ever do another epic with the first doctor, that actor who played Hartnell would be perfect, not discounting that stand in in the five doctors, but the guy in the AAIsat, was a dead ringer!

Okay fellow brilliant Whovians and Trekkers.. I am just watching for the first time, the Twin dilema.. and I must say, adulation and memories of adolescent drooling over Peri aside, who is to blame for his costume choice? I mean really, it seems as if the director or producer had it in for him from the start. I mean it is almost like they were trying to create a comic book like character akin to the 1960s Batman serials with Adam West.. I mean honestly what a horrible choice of outfit. I just had to stop watching to vent a little.. I mean whats the significance of the cat pin on the lapel? the Broccoli has a history, but the cat pin? And the polka dotted tie with that horrible mismatched jacket?? I mean come on...

And what is with the writers always making him bombastic and lude..near arrogant and tetchy..I always thought colin baker had a sort of regal and yet Tom baker quality about him, like in the Invasion of time, and a bit of the 3rd doctor as well.. But now that I am going down the rabbit hole of the 6th Doctor, I am mortified by the costume choice..It is like a subconscious barrier that makes me somehow shy away from revisiting these episodes.. I am aware there are some stories which are monumental in their implications on the canon of the whoniverse. Like a few and I mean just a few of the 7th doctor serials are worthy in my estimation, but the bombastic and loud off hand mismatched persona of the 6th doctor is off putting and doesn't come across as eccentric, it comes across as bipolar..

Is this Colin's doing, or the forces that were out to get him, or steal his wife.. which was a full on tragedy and just plain wrong.. although it does take two...

This is not official by any means, but I once read somewhere that the goofy outfits post-Tom Baker were John Nathan-Turner's doing. Apparently he felt that the Doctor and his companions needed to be wearing "costumes" instead of actual normal clothing for some unfathomable reason. I believe both Peter Davison and Colin Baker absolutely hated wearing their outfits. Not to mention Nicola Bryant, whom it was hard to take seriously when she's on some dangerous alien planet wearing nothing more than short shorts, high heels and a top that barely held her boobs inside of it.

I think that's why both Baker and Bryant did the "Stranger and Ms. Brown" series, since it was way more what each character envisioned themselves doing in DW.

And as for Colin's performance in DW...There were problems right from the start. IMHO, Davison was just hitting his stride when he decided to quit. Caves of Androzani was his best episode, and had he continued with the series for several more years, I think a lot of fans would be praising his accolades over even Tom Baker. So out goes this young-but-getting-mature, handsome, innocent Doctor, and wham! In comes this older, meaner guy with the most idiotic duds in the history of the show. It also didn't help that he tried to kill Peri (who also didn't help by having such a fake American accent). And to top it off, most of his episodes sucked.

However, I also feel that Colin was treated quite unfairly during the debacle where he was fired. That whole situation was FUBAR, and he was caught in the middle. I guess he was just the wrong Doctor at the wrong time. It's a pity so many fans view him that way.

I agree completely, tho I always thought Peri was American... hmmm. Tom's outfit imho was my favorite, until tenant and his suit and tenny shoes..cons

 

[Allyn Gibson]

This is not official by any means, but I once read somewhere that the goofy outfits post-Tom Baker were John Nathan-Turner's doing. Apparently he felt that the Doctor and his companions needed to be wearing "costumes" instead of actual normal clothing for some unfathomable reason.

That's accurate. I believe word that was used was "uniforms" rather than "costumes," however. The idea, as I understand it, was that JNT believed it would be easier to merchandise the characters if they had a standard "look." Thus, Tegan kept her air hostess uniform, Turlough wore his school uniform, Adric wore whatever the hell that was, etc.

IMHO, Davison was just hitting his stride when he decided to quit. Caves of Androzani was his best episode, and had he continued with the series for several more years, I think a lot of fans would be praising his accolades over even Tom Baker.

I think that's a very optimistic read. I honestly think that, if Davison had done season 22, then Doctor Who would have ended with Davison because of the Cancellation Crisis.

Look at it this way. Davison would have done four years, and even though he'd finally gotten a grasp on the role, he'd have had to deal with stories like "Timelash" and "Attack of the Cybermen" in that fourth year which were exactly the kind of dross that led him to tell JNT after Season 20 that was he done after 21. Plus, the series was going on a long hiatus, he had no real reason to return, and there was no reason to change his mind. Michael Grade may well have looked at this situation -- a producer he didn't like, a show he didn't like, no lead actor, and "Doctor in Distress" -- and let Doctor Who fade away just as it did at the end of the McCoy era.

 

[DWF]

IMHO, Davison was just hitting his stride when he decided to quit. Caves of Androzani was his best episode, and had he continued with the series for several more years, I think a lot of fans would be praising his accolades over even Tom Baker.

I think that's a very optimistic read. I honestly think that, if Davison had done season 22, then Doctor Who would have ended with Davison because of the Cancellation Crisis.

Look at it this way. Davison would have done four years, and even though he'd finally gotten a grasp on the role, he'd have had to deal with stories like "Timelash" and "Attack of the Cybermen" in that fourth year which were exactly the kind of dross that led him to tell JNT after Season 20 that was he done after 21. Plus, the series was going on a long hiatus, he had no real reason to return, and there was no reason to change his mind. Michael Grade may well have looked at this situation -- a producer he didn't like, a show he didn't like, no lead actor, and "Doctor in Distress" -- and let Doctor Who fade away just as it did at the end of the McCoy era.

WE have no way of knowing what Davison's fourth season might be like or how it'd be received. JNT felt the need to change the format and the show got a different timeslot and the A-Team also took away some viewers. Colin Baker had to deal with a number of factors that Peter Davison didn't so it's nigh impossible to guess what the 22nd wou;d've been like with Davion as the Doctor instead of Colin Baker.

 

[starsuperion]

Here is what I don't get.. up to the fourth Doctor, he could have more then one outfit..even tom bakers outfit changed from time to time..then it was like they decided the doctor was like superman, and could only wear one outfit for a time..from five, to six, and seven, not counting the movie, then skipping 8, and moving on to 9 and his jumper..finally with tenant and smith we get a different costume set, finally.. but it always perturbed me that the doctor had to always wear the same thing all the time from 5-7..

At least if six could have changed into something else in another season, even off distasteful, it would have broken the monotony

 

[diankra]

Ah... we do, at least for most of it.
Attack was written by the script editor, sort of.
Vengeance had been in the works so long the outline had Nyssa in it.
MotR was the introduction for a new regular villain(ess).
2 Doctors began when Troughton said 'Can I do another one...'
and Timelash was a pitch from a young new writer put into the no budget slot.
Most of them would probably have been in a fourth Davison season, with a different approach to the Doctor.

 

[DWF]

Here is what I don't get.. up to the fourth Doctor, he could have more then one outfit..even tom bakers outfit changed from time to time..then it was like they decided the doctor was like superman, and could only wear one outfit for a time..from five, to six, and seven, not counting the movie, then skipping 8, and moving on to 9 and his jumper..finally with tenant and smith we get a different costume set, finally.. but it always perturbed me that the doctor had to always wear the same thing all the time from 5-7..

At least if six could have changed into something else in another season, even off distasteful, it would have broken the monotony

The sixth Doctor's outfit did change in The Trial Of A Time Lord, he got different waistcoat(vest) and tie and each change showed whwere in his timeline we were.

 

[DWF]

Ah... we do, at least for most of it.
Attack was written by the script editor, sort of.
Vengeance had been in the works so long the outline had Nyssa in it.
MotR was the introduction for a new regular villain(ess).
2 Doctors began when Troughton said 'Can I do another one...'
and Timelash was a pitch from a young new writer put into the no budget slot.
Most of them would probably have been in a fourth Davison season, with a different approach to the Doctor.

Might as well wonder what The Visitation would've been like with Tom Baker in it instead of Davison. The 22nd season would've been vastly different with Davsion instead of Colin Baker.

 

[Starkers]

Here is what I don't get.. up to the fourth Doctor, he could have more then one outfit..even tom bakers outfit changed from time to time..then it was like they decided the doctor was like superman, and could only wear one outfit for a time..from five, to six, and seven, not counting the movie, then skipping 8, and moving on to 9 and his jumper..finally with tenant and smith we get a different costume set, finally.. but it always perturbed me that the doctor had to always wear the same thing all the time from 5-7..

At least if six could have changed into something else in another season, even off distasteful, it would have broken the monotony

The sixth Doctor's outfit did change in The Trial Of A Time Lord, he got different waistcoat(vest) and tie and each change showed whwere in his timeline we were.

Plus I thought McCoy's outfit changed a fair bit?

I love the concept of Davison's outfit, it was just the realisation of it--in part-- that sucked. The difference is I can't even bring myself to like the concept of Colin's outfit. I honestly don't know how that could have worked, even if it'd been a more ragged patchwork coat I still think it would have been too much.

I think the show would have survived longer if Peter had stayed, Colin's era was just a bit of a (im)perfect storm really; not the greatest of actors portraying (initially at least) a not especially likable character, dressed like a fool, accompanied by a bikini with a bad American accent and saddled with poor stories and senior management who weren't big fans of the show.

Change one of those things--Davison instead of Colin, a better outfit, a better companion like Sarah Jane, better writing--and I think the show would have limped on for longer, but I think the end result would have been the same.

It might be heresy to say this but was the show being cancelled when it finally was really a terrible thing, in hindsight I mean?

 

[DWF]

Here is what I don't get.. up to the fourth Doctor, he could have more then one outfit..even tom bakers outfit changed from time to time..then it was like they decided the doctor was like superman, and could only wear one outfit for a time..from five, to six, and seven, not counting the movie, then skipping 8, and moving on to 9 and his jumper..finally with tenant and smith we get a different costume set, finally.. but it always perturbed me that the doctor had to always wear the same thing all the time from 5-7..

At least if six could have changed into something else in another season, even off distasteful, it would have broken the monotony

The sixth Doctor's outfit did change in The Trial Of A Time Lord, he got different waistcoat(vest) and tie and each change showed whwere in his timeline we were.

Plus I thought McCoy's outfit changed a fair bit?

Not really he got a darker coat and lost the sweater for the TV movie, but his outfit reamined the same thougout his run.

 

[Mr Awe]

I think that's a very optimistic read. I honestly think that, if Davison had done season 22, then Doctor Who would have ended with Davison because of the Cancellation Crisis.

Look at it this way. Davison would have done four years, and even though he'd finally gotten a grasp on the role, he'd have had to deal with stories like "Timelash" and "Attack of the Cybermen" in that fourth year which were exactly the kind of dross that led him to tell JNT after Season 20 that was he done after 21. Plus, the series was going on a long hiatus, he had no real reason to return, and there was no reason to change his mind. Michael Grade may well have looked at this situation -- a producer he didn't like, a show he didn't like, no lead actor, and "Doctor in Distress" -- and let Doctor Who fade away just as it did at the end of the McCoy era.

That's a very pessimistic read. I'll agree to the extent that the show wouldn't have lasted any longer if Davison had stayed on for another year. However, it certainly would not have ended any sooner.

If the show survived on for several years after the horror of the Colin Baker years, it certainly would've survived on after another year of Davison. Even if the scripts were the same, equally as bad, we'd have a better actor playing a more likeable character who wore a better "uniform". The end result would've been better to some degree.

Yeah, I know, there are a few people who really liked Colin's Doctor but the overall impression is that he was a below average Doctor.

Mr Awe

 

[kirk55555]

Here is what I don't get.. up to the fourth Doctor, he could have more then one outfit..even tom bakers outfit changed from time to time..then it was like they decided the doctor was like superman, and could only wear one outfit for a time..from five, to six, and seven, not counting the movie, then skipping 8, and moving on to 9 and his jumper..finally with tenant and smith we get a different costume set, finally.. but it always perturbed me that the doctor had to always wear the same thing all the time from 5-7..

At least if six could have changed into something else in another season, even off distasteful, it would have broken the monotony

I actually like The Doctor having a consistant look. Its not a big deal if he doesn't, but I like him having a signature look in different incarnations. I only really notice the costume when it gets bad. I honestly hate Tom Baker's all red "pimp suit" (that's what I call it) more than I do any other Doctor Who look (and I haven't even gotten to those episodes yet, but I've seen pictues and clips with him in it and its horrible). The 11th Doctor's "depression" attire from after Amy/Rory left was also pretty lame compared to his tan jacket look.

But, I've already admitted to actually liking the 6th Doctor's look at this point, so my taste is obviously not normal.

 

[Dukhat]

I agree completely, tho I always thought Peri was American... hmmm.

Peri (the fictional character) was American. Nicola Bryant (the real actress who portrayed her) was not. Peri was also said to have been born and raised in Fells Point, Baltimore, Maryland, which coincidentally is where I live. Her fake American accent had no sign whatsoever of the regional Baltimorean accent she should have had.

And "Perpugilliam?" Really? No American mother in her right mind would ever name her daughter that.

 

[Davros]

And "Perpugilliam?" Really? No American mother in her right mind would ever name her daughter that.

Possibly if the kid were born at Woodstock or on a hippie commune.

 

[starsuperion]

So is it fair to say then that Nathan-turner is to doctor who, what Schumacher was to Batman?


On a side note, I kinda long for the Capaldi Doctor..a more subdued and crafty character. I mean don't get me wrong Matt was brilliant and all, but there were tiresome times of him being all over the map, like a kid with ADD who was given tons of sugar pies and redbull...it was sometimes exhausting..I kinda want a little more of that slower paced show action that I liked from the Tennant side, and eccleston..with a bit more classic story tropes thrown in..mystery inc, meets star wars..

 

[Captaindemotion]

I can actually imagine Capaldi having elements of Six (fortunately not the crap costume) as well as the more obvious One and Three. The difference is that I think Peter is a strong enough actor to play someone as unsympathetic and arrogant as Six and yet keep the audience on his side. There's a scene in The Thick Of It where Malcolm Tucker rants about the sacrifices he has made for politics and the party and he manages to imbue even this unsympathetic and monstrous character with some pathos and humanity, even as we laugh at it and him.

 

[starsuperion]

I can actually imagine Capaldi having elements of Six (fortunately not the crap costume) as well as the more obvious One and Three. The difference is that I think Peter is a strong enough actor to play someone as unsympathetic and arrogant as Six and yet keep the audience on his side. There's a scene in The Thick Of It where Malcolm Tucker rants about the sacrifices he has made for politics and the party and he manages to imbue even this unsympathetic and monstrous character with some pathos and humanity, even as we laugh at it and him.

that's welcomed news. I am looking forward to seeing him do great work. I think as a homage and payback to Colin's Doctor, they should do some things that will redeem his run, and really give back to his portrayal in a way to honor him after what the series put him through. In many ways I saw a lot of the 2nd Doctor in Matt's version, which made me smile, because Patrick just had a great run, with brilliant stories, but because of moronic policy, a majority of his work was lost..so that nod in a subtle way to his Doctor was great to see, even if sometimes Matt went off the deep end like daffy duck...whoooo whooooo whoooo! LoL

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ Just to clarify - if by 'news' you meant my reference to PC's performance in TTOI, that fine. But if you you used 'news' to mean that he will be channelling Six in his performance, you've picked me up wrong. I haven't really read or seen anything to suggest he will. I just have a feeling there'll be some of that in his performance and his character, in an effort to get away from the last 2 nice guy Doctors. I could, of course, be totally wrong.

 

[Iamnotspock]

Patrick just had a great run, with brilliant stories, but because of moronic policy, a majority of his work was lost.

It's easy to say that now, but it was a completely different way of thinking back then. TV was ephemeral, there were no widespread reruns or Home Video releases, and storing the tapes cost money and took up a lot of space. What little - if any - sense of posterity there may have been wasn't deemed worth it. It's a great shame but there you go.

 

[starsuperion]

^ Just to clarify - if by 'news' you meant my reference to PC's performance in TTOI, that fine. But if you you used 'news' to mean that he will be channelling Six in his performance, you've picked me up wrong. I haven't really read or seen anything to suggest he will. I just have a feeling there'll be some of that in his performance and his character, in an effort to get away from the last 2 nice guy Doctors. I could, of course, be totally wrong.

ah, no I meant the first response. What he did before bodes well that maybe the writers would like to incorporate that into his character attitude.

Patrick just had a great run, with brilliant stories, but because of moronic policy, a majority of his work was lost.

It's easy to say that now, but it was a completely different way of thinking back then. TV was ephemeral, there were no widespread reruns or Home Video releases, and storing the tapes cost money and took up a lot of space. What little - if any - sense of posterity there may have been wasn't deemed worth it. It's a great shame but there you go.

I understand, but it just seemed as if they were being very short sighted. I mean technology was racing at a rapid pace, and tho there may have been issues with storage expense in those days, but in the USA, there wasn't that attitude, at least I can still find all the honeymooners and Doby Gillis episodes..to me it just seems like that reasoning is a very convenient and diplomatic excuse.

 

[Mr Awe]

I can actually imagine Capaldi having elements of Six (fortunately not the crap costume) as well as the more obvious One and Three. The difference is that I think Peter is a strong enough actor to play someone as unsympathetic and arrogant as Six and yet keep the audience on his side.

I totally agree with this. There were multiple problems with Colin's era (bad scripts, bad costumes, etc). But, one major problem was Colin's insufficient acting skills to play such a character with enough range to give the audience *something* to hold on to. As a result, he came off as a one-note, overly bombastic, unsympathetic character.

I think actor with more skill would be able to create the same type of character but more nuanced, a wider range, etc.

Mr Awe