The sixth doctor debate

[Doctorwhovian]

Grade's reported reasons for cancelling the show are a bit weird IMO. He reportedly didn't feel it was up to the quality of the Spielberg/Lucas sci-fi at the time (Close Encounters/Star Wars/ E.T). This is reflected in some of his interviews.

Well of course it wasn't, it was a low-budget TV show!

 

[starsuperion]

Colin Baker was fired by Michael Grade. Michael Grade did not like Colin Baker. Michael Grade's girlfriend at the time was Colin Baker's ex-wife. Colin baker was not fired by the Production Team. John Nathan-Turner fought hard to keep Colin Baker on.

interesting.. so Grade was the culprit!

No one can escape the Grath Vinda kay!!

Or is it no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!

Jonathon Powell should get the blame Grade just went along with whatever Powell wanted. And I still don't know what Lix Goddard had to do with it.

So what was powell's issue then??

 

[DWF]

Grade's reported reasons for cancelling the show are a bit weird IMO. He reportedly didn't feel it was up to the quality of the Spielberg/Lucas sci-fi at the time (Close Encounters/Star Wars/ E.T). This is reflected in some of his interviews.

Well of course it wasn't, it was a low-budget TV show!

That was a mere excuse, Grade and Powell made the budgets for the show they could've easily have rasied Doctor Who's budget. They just didn't like Doctor Who among other series.

 

[starsuperion]

Grade's reported reasons for cancelling the show are a bit weird IMO. He reportedly didn't feel it was up to the quality of the Spielberg/Lucas sci-fi at the time (Close Encounters/Star Wars/ E.T). This is reflected in some of his interviews.

Well of course it wasn't, it was a low-budget TV show!

That was a mere excuse, Grade and Powell made the budgets for the show they could've easily have rasied Doctor Who's budget. They just didn't like Doctor Who among other series.

I agree, that is a cop-out..

 

[Mr Awe]

Grade's reported reasons for cancelling the show are a bit weird IMO. He reportedly didn't feel it was up to the quality of the Spielberg/Lucas sci-fi at the time (Close Encounters/Star Wars/ E.T). This is reflected in some of his interviews.

Well of course it wasn't, it was a low-budget TV show!

That was a mere excuse, Grade and Powell made the budgets for the show they could've easily have rasied Doctor Who's budget. They just didn't like Doctor Who among other series.

What I don't understand then is why Grade/Powell didn't can the series after McCoy's first season with the sinking ratings? Why did they contact Sydney Newman and possibly Lambert to get ideas on how to improve the series after Colin left? Powell reportedly thought Paradise Towers was a top rate story!

I'm not sure that their hatred of DW is as absolute as is reported. It appears they gave it an honest chance, at least somewhat.

Mr Awe

 

[Doctorwhovian]

Might be because the show was approaching the 25th anniversary at the time.

 

[Nightowl1701]

What I don't understand then is why Grade/Powell didn't can the series after McCoy's first season with the sinking ratings? Why did they contact Sydney Newman and possibly Lambert to get ideas on how to improve the series after Colin left? Powell reportedly thought Paradise Towers was a top rate story!

I'm not sure that their hatred of DW is as absolute as is reported. It appears they gave it an honest chance, at least somewhat.

Mr Awe

The big ratings plunge actually happened in Colin's time, not Sylvester's. When the show was put on hiatus in '84, it was pulling about 7.5 million viewers. When it came back for the Trial, it plunged down to 4 million and slowly crawled up to just under 5 by season's end - no doubt adding fuel (or at least excuse) to the fire for Grade to fire Colin. Sylvester's first two seasons stayed about the same, hovering around 5 million, then cratered in the third.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ Still, didn't need to bring it back after the end of Trial. I was off by a season. Easy enough for Grade/Powell to say they gave it a chance and it tanked some more.

Mr Awe

 

[Doctorwhovian]

I wonder why they sort of went really goofy with season 24 (and to a degree the later McCoy seasons)-because of McCoy and Langford's casting? Cartmel not quite getting the hang of it yet?

It's probably partially because of the backlash to the violence/gore of season 22, but even Trial of A Time Lord which had the violence toned down wasn't quite as infantile as 24 was.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Partly all that, yeah. But the blame mainly lies with JNT, who took Sydney Newman's suggestion (that Seven return to the 'not-quite-all-there cosmic hobo' that Two was) a bit too literally - and he probably also had the show's late 70's ratings zenith under 'Bonkers Baker' in mind as well. It was JNT who hired McCoy with that kind of show in mind, and personally came up with Seven fouling up cliches and playing spoons (to McCoy, Cartmel and the writers' disgust).

EDIT: Ok, thanks for the correction Mr. Awe!

 

[Mr Awe]

^ No, McCoy liked playing the spoons in character.

Mr Awe

 

[Doctorwhovian]

Yeah, and the spoons do appear in season 25 as well, despite the slightly more serious approach.

 

[sidious618]

McCoy's first season isn't really all that goofy when you take away Time and the Rani. Paradise Towers, for instance, is pretty damn dark.

 

[diankra]

Bear in mind also that in early 1988, just after Season 24 had gone out, Grade unexpectedly quit the BBC to take over at Channel 4 (unexpectedly as he'd just been given a promotion to director of television, replacing Bill Cotton; he went largely because his old colleague and rival John Birt had arrived as deputy director general, and aside from clashing over day to day decisions with Birt overruling Grade, with Birt clearly lined up to take over as DG when there was next a vacancy, there was no point in Grade sticking around to try and get the job himself).
Powell had in turn been promoted from head of drama to take over from Grade as controller of BBC1. So by early 1988, there's the new MDTV in place of Grade, then Powell as Controller BBC1, then the new head of drama, so even if Powell was still determined to get rid of Who, the other two might look back at the 1985 kerfuffle and say "Not worth the bother, just keep making 14 episodes and bury them in that slot opposite Corrie where nothing has a hope, while Enterprises gets some cash from the US sales."

 

[Mr Awe]

McCoy's first season isn't really all that goofy when you take away Time and the Rani. Paradise Towers, for instance, is pretty damn dark.

Nah, I'm rewatching McCoy's first season right now and have gotten up to Delta and the Bannermen. So far, it's trying to be both fairly violent and very goofy. Time and the Rani does have more silliness but there's still too much in the others. The panto elements keep creeping in.

Paradise Towers could've been fairly dark but the directing and acting counteract that at many spots.

the other two might look back at the 1985 kerfuffle and say "Not worth the bother, just keep making 14 episodes and bury them in that slot opposite Corrie where nothing has a hope, while Enterprises gets some cash from the US sales."

Interesting. So Grade left and Powell probably didn't think it was worth the effort. Still, Grade and Powell seemed to put more effort into starting the series off on a good foot with McCoy than if they wanted it gone at all costs. I suspect the US cash may have had something to do with that.

Mr Awe

 

[Doctorwhovian]

To be fair things do improve a bit in "Dragonfire". Sure there's still some strange/goofy stuff (like the 'cliffhanger') but the plot is an improvement, there's some decent model FX work (although the sets are kind of crappy). The ending was pretty interesting, although it sort of introduces the cliche of the Seventh Doctor talking his enemies to death.

 

[Lonemagpie]

TBH, it was more JNT they wanted rid of.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ I thought JNT wanted to leave and they wouldn't let him?

 

[Mr Awe]

To be fair things do improve a bit in "Dragonfire". Sure there's still some strange/goofy stuff (like the 'cliffhanger') but the plot is an improvement, there's some decent model FX work (although the sets are kind of crappy). The ending was pretty interesting, although it sort of introduces the cliche of the Seventh Doctor talking his enemies to death.

I actually thought Delta and the Bannerman had a lot of potential. The plot itself was really good and the potential to be a great, fun story. But, they had some terrible wooden acting (Billy and Delta), goofiness/panto (e.g. the toll collector), and that horrible synth music that was like a layer of crud over the entire story. I enjoyed McCoy's portrayal of the Doctor in this story, and Paradise Towers as well. He does a better job than I remembered.

Mr Awe

 

[Lonemagpie]

^ I thought JNT wanted to leave and they wouldn't let him?

They wanted him to leave *the BBC*, so they wouldn't give him anywhere else to go.