Excellent comparison.
The Seven of Nine Show
- Thread starter Hobyman
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Aren't the marketing and creative departments separate?
I remember David Cross in an outtake ranting at his superiors that the show kept winning awards but mysteriously could not make any money, and that some one up the chain at the network was a ####ing idiot.
I remember David Cross in an outtake ranting at his superiors that the show kept winning awards but mysteriously could not make any money, and that some one up the chain at the network was a ####ing idiot.
And I guess that there are some who are very happy about that.
But let me point out that I don't think that the Kes fans are more biased than others. I won't ddeny the fact that characters like Janeway were more popular than Kes, just that Kes wasn't that unpopular which some people claim. I still remember Neelix being the most disliked, in fact, he had almost Wesley Crusher status on Voyager and that Kes was more appreciated than Kim too.
No matter how bad Wesley got, you could just shut your eyes and think about Stand By Me.
To be fair, all the Starfleet personnel got a lot of screen time in scenes that had nothing to do with them just because they were on the bridge or in the away team.
I do think Kes was more popular than Neelix, Kim, Chakotay, she was however the hardest to write for and hardest to market. I think that must have had something to do with the decision to axe her. She couldn't be naturally involved in Starfleet scenes because she wasn't Starfleet, and she couldn't be naturally involved in diplomatic outreach situations because she wasn't experienced. Also due to her age and inexperience you can't easily have her in sexual situations without bordering icky. To use her they had to make stuff for her to do. Whereas Neelix is the 'Outgoing wacky' type so they could just make him do whatever they wanted.
I do think Kes was more popular than Neelix, Kim, Chakotay, she was however the hardest to write for and hardest to market. I think that must have had something to do with the decision to axe her. She couldn't be naturally involved in Starfleet scenes because she wasn't Starfleet, and she couldn't be naturally involved in diplomatic outreach situations because she wasn't experienced. Also due to her age and inexperience you can't easily have her in sexual situations without bordering icky. To use her they had to make stuff for her to do. Whereas Neelix is the 'Outgoing wacky' type so they could just make him do whatever they wanted.
Stand By Me just makes me think of River Phoenix being dead.
Wow! Corey Feldman isn't dead!!!!
Yes, Corey Haim is dead, but I thought they both were.
Watching the shitty failed sitcom We Are Men, I kept yelling at the TV "put some fucking clothes on Jerry O'Connel!!!!" Because 30 percent of every episode was conducted near or in a hottub... But that guy wakes up every morning realising that he's not fat!
God bless him.
Yes, Corey Haim is dead, but I thought they both were.
Watching the shitty failed sitcom We Are Men, I kept yelling at the TV "put some fucking clothes on Jerry O'Connel!!!!" Because 30 percent of every episode was conducted near or in a hottub... But that guy wakes up every morning realising that he's not fat!
God bless him.
Hot tubs are completely disgusting because of you know what.
Corey does seem like a name that is doomed
Corey does seem like a name that is doomed
While I don't disagree (it was how the system rolled at the time), I do think that, for example, Jimmy Doohan's agent really should've been pushing for better billing for his client. Scotty was a very firm number 4 IMO, and probably about as integral to most plots as Bones was.
Actually that's a point. People always talk about 'the big three', but even in TOS I reckon Kirk and Spock are about equal, with McCoy being far less directly a 'star' than either of them. Even after he was promoted to opening credits.
Adding 7 of 9 to VOY was the best decision for the show. It really picked up in it's 4th and 5th seasons. While VOY went in to decline in the 6th and 7th season IMO. I am grateful for the entertainment 7's story provided. Minus the whole her and Chakotay thing... YUCK. The "7 learns a lesson" thing did get annoying. It was still more compelling that stories about vapid Chakotay, boring Kim, missed opportunity Tuvok, annoying Neelix, and bitchy B'Ellanna.
Considering how Chakotay, Tuvok, B'Ellanna, Neelix, and Kim all got the shaft. I think TPTB just didn't know what to do with any of those characters; in the situation they were in (lost in the DQ). They were all pretty much empty suits, whose roles could've been filled by any other crewman on VOY. Tom escapes the trap because he's written to be quirky and a jack-of-all/know-it-all character.
Considering how Chakotay, Tuvok, B'Ellanna, Neelix, and Kim all got the shaft. I think TPTB just didn't know what to do with any of those characters; in the situation they were in (lost in the DQ). They were all pretty much empty suits, whose roles could've been filled by any other crewman on VOY. Tom escapes the trap because he's written to be quirky and a jack-of-all/know-it-all character.
I think for Jimmy, it comes down to budget.
Trek wasn't a big production show originally, I don't think they may have been able to afford a pay bump for him.
No way was Kes more popular than Chakotay.
I don't care how people feel about his acting, before Seven, Chakotay was presented as the male sex symbol of the show. They died his hair to make him appear more youthful. You really think showing the characters ass in "Tattoo" really need to be a part of the story?
You can't talk J/C sexual tension without him. It held the lady viewers for 7 years.Neelix was never in the formula because he's the only full latex alien character on the show. His unique look kept him around. Imagine how dull a cast photo is without him, even B'Elanna Klingon features were softened to make her appear more human than alien.(Remember her bushy eyebrows and how she pushed her teeth out slightly when she spoke during the first few eps.?) Every Trek show needs an "Alien" Alien. Neelix was it. Popularity by being unique.
"People" magazine boosted Harry Kim's popularity. The publication is looked at far more than Star Trek.
"Sexist Single Men" issue? Once again, press hyped as a sex symbol for female viewers.
Kes had NOTHING in her corner compared to that. The show needed to get noticed, especially as the launching board for a new network. A sex symbol or unique look will do that. Kes was cute with her Tinkerbell look but it's not new nor exciting. So yes, I agree with your assessment of her not being marketable. She wasn't a sex symbol nor was she going to sell toys, T-Shirts & video games. That's the way the sci-fi market was trending at the time. Who was going to notice Kes when they had Xena to contend with?
At the same time, why waste the actresses time if they didn't feel compelled to write for her? If Jen Lien REALLY wanted to be a actress, isn't it unfair to her to keep her in a contract acting on a show that wasn't going allow her to fully use her skills? Why not let her go, so should could seek out another show or film that would. If Lien wanted too, she could have gone on to a brilliant film career and surpassed every single one of cast of Voyager. No reason why she couldn't have.
I disagree, I thought B'Elanna got great development. She was the only other character besides Seven & the Doc that had a clear defined, consistant and conclusive story arc. I think they real delved into the psyche of her character and Dawson bought such life to her, I found conviction in her. I think the writers were brilliant in their exploration of what it is to be a child of an interracial marriage and ask the question "Who am I?". I found it interesting that most viewers don't pick up on the fact she was bullied as a child for being Klingon, showing there is still racism in the Federation. I though she was the most real hands on character on the show.
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^ Interesting. I do think it supports my view that Doohan was (at least) respected for what he brought to the show, being rewarded with a greater slice of the pie even if that never was translated to him getting higher billing. 2-3 percentage points between him and McCoy is negligable really. I do really think that while Doohan obviously wasn't billed as a 'star' of the show, and he clearly felt more empathy to the lesser stars point-of-view than he did with Shatner The Superstar, in terms of character usage there's a clear schism between the top four (Shatner, Nimoy, Kelley and Doohan) and the "lesser players" (Takei, Nichols, Koenig).
I do think it supports my view that Doohan was (at least) respected for what he brought to the show, being rewarded with a greater slice of the pie even if that never was translated to him getting higher billing. 2-3 percentage points between him and McCoy is negligable really. I do really think that while Doohan obviously wasn't billed as a 'star' of the show, and he clearly felt more empathy to the lesser stars point-of-view than he did with Shatner The Superstar, in terms of character usage there's a clear schism between the top four (Shatner, Nimoy, Kelley and Doohan) and the "lesser players" (Takei, Nichols, Koenig).
That is a good point, that just because Kes is more liked among the hardcore Trekkies who would watch the show anyway doesn't mean she was more interesting to the casual fans who might tune in or might not depending on the promo for that week.
But for a stretch in season three she seemed to have more stories revolved around her than anyone but Janeway or EMH. She just got less screen time because she was least likely to be put in a scene that had nothing to do with her because she was not Starfleet.
I think B'elana became far less interesting after about season two. I liked the way she was in Dreadnought but later seasons tended to focus a little more on her romance with Paris and a lot less on her technical genius or her anger issues.
Chakotay was considered a sex symbol?!
But for a stretch in season three she seemed to have more stories revolved around her than anyone but Janeway or EMH. She just got less screen time because she was least likely to be put in a scene that had nothing to do with her because she was not Starfleet.
I think B'elana became far less interesting after about season two. I liked the way she was in Dreadnought but later seasons tended to focus a little more on her romance with Paris and a lot less on her technical genius or her anger issues.
Chakotay was considered a sex symbol?!
Women really like men who don't talk.
^ They don't give us the CHANCE to talk.
(Did I say that out loud?
)
(Did I say that out loud?
)
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Exactly.
For a show to really be a hit, it needs that broader demographic. Fans and casual viewers because many times, a casual viewer can become the next generation of fan. Too keep a franchises going is to appeal to the younger audience. Wasn't that the idea in mind when they launched TNG?
In retrospect, isn't it interesting how they did build her up just enough at the right time to give some emotional impact to her departure? Harry's death at the hands of the 8472 virus wouldn't of had that. There would be no teary eyes and no setting the message boards of fire with chat.
Buzzing about Voyager is free promotion.
It's not a bad mood if you're always in it.
It's a personality.
(Thank you, Chris Rock for pointing out that one.)
I don't think B'Elanna was a tech genius but rather, she knew how to think outside the box.
Most of the what made her good was her ability to think on her feet in tight situations.
She didn't create much new but rather developed ways to get around problems, like how she figured out how to stop Dreadnaut was to out think it.
Watch "Timeless", she doesn't understand the slipsteam drive. Harry's fully in charge of that and the Delta Flyer project.
Even when it was rebuilt, Harry & Seven were again in charge of it as implied in "Drive".
Seska wanted him
Janeway wanted him(..or at least that what the J/C'ers wanted)
B'Elanna has erotic dreams about him (remember?)
Seven used him as the best choice of the prefect mate
(Hint, hint) Yeah, they were pushing him as a sex symbol.
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Absolutely agree!!
I wouldn`t have become a Voyagerfan without Chakotay.
I loved him from the very first minute I saw him in Caretaker and I`m still a Voyagerfan only because of him.
Meanwhile I also like the other characters but my heart belongs to Chakotay.
He has one of my toes, that's about it. But the Captain is fond of him so I enjoy him as one does a paramour's dog.
I'm not sure I knew about the Peopls's Most Beautiful thing I had the time. I'm not really into magazines. I had no idea Harry was supposed to be this big sex symbol. I can't say as I recall the show captializing on that. If they kept him on because of that, shouldn't Harry have gotten lots of sexy shirtless scenes and romantic relationships?
If being non Starfleet was an issue, the writers could've had Janeway give Kes a field commission the way all the Marquis got. I'd have found it very believable that a bright hard working young woman like Kes could've been taking online versions of Starfleet classes. There could have been a good story or two with Kes facing the challenges of Starfleet Academy, with holodeck training classes, a holographic Boothby, etc.
If being non Starfleet was an issue, the writers could've had Janeway give Kes a field commission the way all the Marquis got. I'd have found it very believable that a bright hard working young woman like Kes could've been taking online versions of Starfleet classes. There could have been a good story or two with Kes facing the challenges of Starfleet Academy, with holodeck training classes, a holographic Boothby, etc.
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