They're the ones running the show, they know what they're talking about.
The Romulan Star Empire in Star Trek: Discovery
- Thread starter INACTIVEUSS Einstein
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They're the ones running the show, they know what they're talking about.
Or then not, as lots of things can change even after postproduction - say, Data always was "built by mysterious advanced aliens" until it turned out he never had been, regardless of what the ones running the show had thought.
But not on or near Vulcan. Or is "the Neutral Zone" near Vulcan? If so, then that points a blood-green arrow straight at the Romulans already.
Yet if a space thunderstorm was associated with the event, then a giant spaceship should be, too - space thunderstorms were apparently unheard of in any other context back when Robau investigated (the first-ever) one.
For the past century or so, neither Romulans nor Vulcans supposedly have made violent moves. Pike is the only known man in the universe we observe to associate pointy ears with violence, then. It really is up to him to make the connection here, now that his ship is sailing towards pointed ears in circumstances unique to his research. And potentially close to the Romulan Neutral Zone to boot.
Okay, that's a valid alternate way to phrase "Sulu can't drive the ship". It still stands that Sulu's fumbling saved what there was to be saved, and Kirk's barging in on the bridge and yelling "Romulan ambush!" had no directly observable effect on what happened next.
The movie seems to relish on variations of the theme: Kirk fights at the drill platform and achieves nothing, Kirk argues with Spock and achieves nothing, Kirk gets help that allows him to argue with Spock again and formulates a course of action in which Spock saves Earth and Kirk achieves... Well, he does save Captain Pike. Guess who gets promoted?
(I'm getting similar vibes of Burnham at this stage: attempts to do lots of great things, achieves nothing of positive significance until perhaps the season finale, but we still root for her. The difference would be, does Starfleet?)
Timo Saloniemi
But not on or near Vulcan. Or is "the Neutral Zone" near Vulcan? If so, then that points a blood-green arrow straight at the Romulans already.
Yet if a space thunderstorm was associated with the event, then a giant spaceship should be, too - space thunderstorms were apparently unheard of in any other context back when Robau investigated (the first-ever) one.
For the past century or so, neither Romulans nor Vulcans supposedly have made violent moves. Pike is the only known man in the universe we observe to associate pointy ears with violence, then. It really is up to him to make the connection here, now that his ship is sailing towards pointed ears in circumstances unique to his research. And potentially close to the Romulan Neutral Zone to boot.
Okay, that's a valid alternate way to phrase "Sulu can't drive the ship". It still stands that Sulu's fumbling saved what there was to be saved, and Kirk's barging in on the bridge and yelling "Romulan ambush!" had no directly observable effect on what happened next.
The movie seems to relish on variations of the theme: Kirk fights at the drill platform and achieves nothing, Kirk argues with Spock and achieves nothing, Kirk gets help that allows him to argue with Spock again and formulates a course of action in which Spock saves Earth and Kirk achieves... Well, he does save Captain Pike. Guess who gets promoted?
(I'm getting similar vibes of Burnham at this stage: attempts to do lots of great things, achieves nothing of positive significance until perhaps the season finale, but we still root for her. The difference would be, does Starfleet?)
Timo Saloniemi
Deanna Troi was going to have six breasts, per Roddenberry.
You're probably right, but until we see it, that's just your prediction.
Well the current signs from the set as well as interviews on design production all seem to point to that.
I doubt it'll be anywhere near as pronounced as the Klingons, and part of a subtle external aesthetic change (markings, some hair but varied, facial shape, eyes, etc) and far better clothing design. Not the quilted...things they wore in TNG.
The helmets from TOS and the Romulan War novels might be a nice homage to classic Romulans. Just much more detailed and with a Roman theme.
The Klingon weirdness has been revealed to be a plot point. But it also goes beyond what would be needed to introduce the plot point.
The TMP Klingons were not a plot point at all (and it was only much later that onscreen Trek felt obligated to turn them into one). The TNG Romulans, likewise (and we're still waiting for the definite story, but probably not in vain, considering). So what we have here is somewhat novel. But it would be odd for them not to do the "goes beyond" bit with Romulans when they do it with the Klingons and the starships and the props and whatnot. It's just a matter of degrees.
...And of forward thinking, that is, thinking of the day when they have to backpedal and reintegrate everything and have the TOS characters in their plywood ship appear on screen unaltered (even if CGI-faked) after all.
Timo Saloniemi
The TMP Klingons were not a plot point at all (and it was only much later that onscreen Trek felt obligated to turn them into one). The TNG Romulans, likewise (and we're still waiting for the definite story, but probably not in vain, considering). So what we have here is somewhat novel. But it would be odd for them not to do the "goes beyond" bit with Romulans when they do it with the Klingons and the starships and the props and whatnot. It's just a matter of degrees.
...And of forward thinking, that is, thinking of the day when they have to backpedal and reintegrate everything and have the TOS characters in their plywood ship appear on screen unaltered (even if CGI-faked) after all.
Timo Saloniemi
Don't let them interact with Starfleet. It could be a scene between the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire.
I did a couple of threads on Romulan ships that may be of interest:
What Do Romulan Ships of TOS Movie Era Look Like?
Romulan Ship Variety
What Do Romulan Ships of TOS Movie Era Look Like?
Romulan Ship Variety
I came across some good screen captures from the game Birth of the Federation, so thought I would share some Romulan designs from that, Armada, and Klingon Academy, if anyone is interested in speculative Romulan design history - I think the Romulans had the strongest original designs in BOTF:
22nd Century Fleet (Enterprise era)
Old Romulan War era bird-of-prey
23rd Century Fleet (Original Series era)
Unidentified class
Classic Romulan bird-of-prey
23rd Century Fleet (Motion Picture era)
Motion Picture era bird-of-prey cruiser
Gladius class frigate
Imperial hawk class battleship
Imperium class heavy battlecruiser
24th Century Fleet (Next Generation era)
D'Deridex class warbird
D'Dredar class battleship
R'Derex class cruiser
R'Ton class strike cruiser
Scout ship
24th Century (First Contact era)
Griffin class
Raptor class
Shadow class
24th Century Fleet (Nemesis era)
Valdore type warbird
22nd Century Fleet (Enterprise era)
Old Romulan War era bird-of-prey
23rd Century Fleet (Original Series era)
Unidentified class
Classic Romulan bird-of-prey
23rd Century Fleet (Motion Picture era)
Motion Picture era bird-of-prey cruiser
Gladius class frigate
Imperial hawk class battleship
Imperium class heavy battlecruiser
24th Century Fleet (Next Generation era)
D'Deridex class warbird
D'Dredar class battleship
R'Derex class cruiser
R'Ton class strike cruiser
Scout ship
24th Century (First Contact era)
Griffin class
Raptor class
Shadow class
24th Century Fleet (Nemesis era)
Valdore type warbird
With their winged eagle insignia, I am wondering if the rebels of the Discovery Mirror Universe are that universe's Romulan Empire.
It's just their funding source, actually.
Romulans are actually a species I really hope gets a "Redesign", they should still look like Vulcans, but there is so much interesting stuff you can do with Romulans that TOS sort of touched on, but TNG all threw in the trash making them just generic emotionless psychopaths who wear shitty uniforms, cut their hair in a vulcan way but it's spiky so EVIL and they get accessories from Hot Topic.
If I did Romulans, they would probably be far more similar to Eldar from Warhammer 40k, smug, warlike, but also beautiful, excel in arts and culture, seductive etc.
The reason being in that we're told that Vulcans before Surak were extremely emotional and warlike, we're also shown by Spock when he loses emotional control for whatever reason, he becomes extremely seductive as especially seen in the episode All Our Yesterdays when he literally becomes in his own words a pre-Surak Vulcan. In TOS as well, the Female Romulan Commander is very seductive and tries to seduce Spock (and gets seduced herself)
We're also told numerous times in Trek that Romulus is the most astonishing garden planet and has the greatest art in the galaxy and Romulans are an extremely artistic and romantic people. Yet outside of TOS, it is never shown.
The B&B/TNG and Post-TNG Romulans do not match the species traits at all, not to mention, they're near identical to Cardassians. Romulans are one species of missed potential that could be absolutely fantastic.
I've heard there is some book series called the Rhiannsu which fleshes out the Romulans, but I haven't been able to read it. For those that have, how do Rhiannsu Romulans differ from what we see on screen?
If I did Romulans, they would probably be far more similar to Eldar from Warhammer 40k, smug, warlike, but also beautiful, excel in arts and culture, seductive etc.
The reason being in that we're told that Vulcans before Surak were extremely emotional and warlike, we're also shown by Spock when he loses emotional control for whatever reason, he becomes extremely seductive as especially seen in the episode All Our Yesterdays when he literally becomes in his own words a pre-Surak Vulcan. In TOS as well, the Female Romulan Commander is very seductive and tries to seduce Spock (and gets seduced herself)
We're also told numerous times in Trek that Romulus is the most astonishing garden planet and has the greatest art in the galaxy and Romulans are an extremely artistic and romantic people. Yet outside of TOS, it is never shown.
The B&B/TNG and Post-TNG Romulans do not match the species traits at all, not to mention, they're near identical to Cardassians. Romulans are one species of missed potential that could be absolutely fantastic.
I've heard there is some book series called the Rhiannsu which fleshes out the Romulans, but I haven't been able to read it. For those that have, how do Rhiannsu Romulans differ from what we see on screen?
With respect, I disagree quite passionately here.
The Romulans are not "space elves", just because they happen to have pointed ears like the Eldar or Tolkien Elves, and the temptation to slowly make them into a fantasy-race analogue is a cliched problem in one or two Star Trek video games that I would rather not migrate to the actual canon.
Not every species that looks vaguely elfin has to follow a Tolkien-derived stereotype of being "lithe, cultured, artistic and seductive" - the Romulans are fine as they are now, full of as much variety as humans - with working class miners like Nero, sympathetic soldiers like the Romulan Commander, and fascist bureaucrats like Neral. Their creative origin and writing philosophy is distinct from the tropes of fantasy, and more interesting for that reason.
The problem with "fantasy creep" is that Star Trek's aliens are grounded in science, and the more they take on symbolic mythological significance, the less natural they are. Klingons, Cardassians and Romulans are stronger for being actual sociologically-grounded cultures.
If anything they are Roman, or Nazis (with the original Romulan Commander being inspired by the sympathetic German U-Boat captain from The Enemy Below), but sometimes stray from "Roman fascist/militarist analogue" too close to actual classicism, with some non-canon works going overboard with the references to ancient culture and items, rather than taking the general metaphor of the Romans being a disciplined militant society that inspired Nazi imagery - i.e. when Shakespeare is updated to include automatic rifles and so on (Titus, 1999, with Anthony Hopkins - or Coriolanus, 2011, with Ralph Fiennes), .
The Romulans are not "space elves", just because they happen to have pointed ears like the Eldar or Tolkien Elves, and the temptation to slowly make them into a fantasy-race analogue is a cliched problem in one or two Star Trek video games that I would rather not migrate to the actual canon.
Not every species that looks vaguely elfin has to follow a Tolkien-derived stereotype of being "lithe, cultured, artistic and seductive" - the Romulans are fine as they are now, full of as much variety as humans - with working class miners like Nero, sympathetic soldiers like the Romulan Commander, and fascist bureaucrats like Neral. Their creative origin and writing philosophy is distinct from the tropes of fantasy, and more interesting for that reason.
The problem with "fantasy creep" is that Star Trek's aliens are grounded in science, and the more they take on symbolic mythological significance, the less natural they are. Klingons, Cardassians and Romulans are stronger for being actual sociologically-grounded cultures.
If anything they are Roman, or Nazis (with the original Romulan Commander being inspired by the sympathetic German U-Boat captain from The Enemy Below), but sometimes stray from "Roman fascist/militarist analogue" too close to actual classicism, with some non-canon works going overboard with the references to ancient culture and items, rather than taking the general metaphor of the Romans being a disciplined militant society that inspired Nazi imagery - i.e. when Shakespeare is updated to include automatic rifles and so on (Titus, 1999, with Anthony Hopkins - or Coriolanus, 2011, with Ralph Fiennes), .
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I thought I would post some further thoughts on where the inspiration for the Romulans came from, since a lot has been written on the Klingons, but very little on the older of Star Trek's two great villain empires.
Here is what some of the official sources have to say:
When people adapt Shakespeare's Roman plays, like Julius Caesar, Titus and Coriolanus, they tend to sometimes symbolically use the trappings of modern military pageantry, like "dress uniform", in place of senatorial robes (since a fair few senators would have been veterans, and there was little separation between politics and war) - and use the modern gear worn by soldiers to represent the highly disciplined Roman legions.
The Romulans in this context are not meant to be like-for-like analogues to Romans, wearing "Galea" helmets, and carrying "Gladius" swords, like some exaggerated caricature - rather they were meant to follow the general premise of such a society, whilst being space age in terms of technology.
In TOS, the Romulan commander is meant to be a sympathetic veteran officer who cares more for his troops and country, than for the ambitions of the Praetor, a sort of reluctant veteran commander. In TNG, the Romulans seem to have morphed toward Cold War drama - the Tal Shiar were introduced as a rival intelligence agency, akin to the Soviet NKVD, or East Germany's Stasi. So it seems that by TNG, they were acting as stand-ins for superpowers.
The everyday, less refined miners in 2009's Star Trek make a lot of sense. They may have military training, since all of Romulan society is so militarized. The Romulan Empire isn't a fantasy land where everybody lives on a farm, it needs heavy industries like the huge mines and factories of Siberia, to support this massive state capable of building Warbirds.
Here is what some of the official sources have to say:
Paul Schneider modeled the Romulans on the ancient Romans, naming the species' homeworlds after the mythical founders of Rome, Romulus and Remus. "It was a matter of developing a good Romanesque set of admirable antagonists that were worthy of Kirk," Schneider related. "I came up with the concept of the Romulans which was an extension of the Roman civilization to the point of space travel, and it turned out quite well."
Gene Roddenberry, interested in ancient Rome himself, approved of the initial depiction of the Romulan species. "He loved Paul's having endowed the enemy-Romulans with the militaristic character of the ancient Romans," wrote John D.F. Black and Mary Black.
In common with Gene Roddenberry, the Blacks and D.C. Fontana also appreciated Paul Schneider's invention of the Romulans, the Blacks describing them as, "Villains strong enough and clever enough that the audience would be compelled to believe they were capable of the first move that would lead to the destruction of the Federation."
Gene Roddenberry, interested in ancient Rome himself, approved of the initial depiction of the Romulan species. "He loved Paul's having endowed the enemy-Romulans with the militaristic character of the ancient Romans," wrote John D.F. Black and Mary Black.
In common with Gene Roddenberry, the Blacks and D.C. Fontana also appreciated Paul Schneider's invention of the Romulans, the Blacks describing them as, "Villains strong enough and clever enough that the audience would be compelled to believe they were capable of the first move that would lead to the destruction of the Federation."
When people adapt Shakespeare's Roman plays, like Julius Caesar, Titus and Coriolanus, they tend to sometimes symbolically use the trappings of modern military pageantry, like "dress uniform", in place of senatorial robes (since a fair few senators would have been veterans, and there was little separation between politics and war) - and use the modern gear worn by soldiers to represent the highly disciplined Roman legions.
The Romulans in this context are not meant to be like-for-like analogues to Romans, wearing "Galea" helmets, and carrying "Gladius" swords, like some exaggerated caricature - rather they were meant to follow the general premise of such a society, whilst being space age in terms of technology.
In TOS, the Romulan commander is meant to be a sympathetic veteran officer who cares more for his troops and country, than for the ambitions of the Praetor, a sort of reluctant veteran commander. In TNG, the Romulans seem to have morphed toward Cold War drama - the Tal Shiar were introduced as a rival intelligence agency, akin to the Soviet NKVD, or East Germany's Stasi. So it seems that by TNG, they were acting as stand-ins for superpowers.
The everyday, less refined miners in 2009's Star Trek make a lot of sense. They may have military training, since all of Romulan society is so militarized. The Romulan Empire isn't a fantasy land where everybody lives on a farm, it needs heavy industries like the huge mines and factories of Siberia, to support this massive state capable of building Warbirds.
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While I don't want Romulans to be Tolken-esque Elves (and honestly Eldar are quite different from Elves in basically, Eldar are vicious and murderous and seductive) the problem is, Romulans literally serve no point in Star Trek anymore because Cardassians took literally all their traits, basically their backstory and got way more fleshed out. This is of course because, they felt Romulans were overused and thus created a stand in for them with the Cardassians. But frankly Cardassians are Romulans just done way better than Romulans ever were thus Romulans no longer really have a unique identity in Trek.
Thus my idea is basically make Romulans how Vulcans were described before Surak, extremely emotional, artistic and seductive and it's how we sort of see the Commander in TOS, she is extremely seductive and flirty. Something lost with post-TOS Romulans who just became card-board cutout psychopathic Nazis.
One of the reasons I brought up Eldar as well is because, while Tolkiens Elves were heavily inspired by Nordic culture, Warhammer (and by extention Warcraft's) elves were heavily inspired by Asia and I think that is a way more interesting aesthetic for Romulans. You can even keep many of the "Roman imperial" motifs with because lets be honest, the Chinese, Japanese Empires weren't that different in Game of Thrones backstabbing from the Romans and with the more frankly aesthetic Chinese/East Asian empires we can also keep them in line with how we are told Romulans are, Artistic, Cultured, Admirers of beauty, Romulus is a artistic, cultural garden planet, Romulans are emotional, warlike and cultured.
Frankly I would rather Romulans have this sort of aesthetic
Than the grey shoulderpad suit, Vulcan haircut they got in the TNG era.
The haircut doesn't even make sense. The implication with the Vulcans is the Vulcans don't care about aesthetics and thus just have a simple utilitarian haircut. Why would the EMOTIONAL and ARTISTIC Romulans who rejected Suraks teachings have the same haircut but often just have it with a big spike instead?
I also like you brought up Kelvin Verse Romulans, because JJ actually agreed somewhat with me, in that Romulans had been massively mishandled and basically they looked like shit. 2009 also has one of my favourite shots of a Romulan, Neros Wife. Why? Because she has normal hair. showing that Romulans are not basically "Evil Vulcans" like TNG presented them.
It's up there with my other favourite Romulan in Trek.
What TNG did to the Romulans sucked. Even worse when Picard goes to Romulus and the cities are basically medieval tier and people walk around with fire torches and everyone is wearing brown, beige and grey. Which completely conflicts with how we're shown Romulus in matte paintings and told by everyone it's one of the most aesthetically beautiful and cultural planets in the Galaxy.
While I haven't read it (though I hear it's the best representation and redesign of Romulans in Trek) I take from the coverart, they probably went with a more Asian tone with the Romulans.
Thus my idea is basically make Romulans how Vulcans were described before Surak, extremely emotional, artistic and seductive and it's how we sort of see the Commander in TOS, she is extremely seductive and flirty. Something lost with post-TOS Romulans who just became card-board cutout psychopathic Nazis.
One of the reasons I brought up Eldar as well is because, while Tolkiens Elves were heavily inspired by Nordic culture, Warhammer (and by extention Warcraft's) elves were heavily inspired by Asia and I think that is a way more interesting aesthetic for Romulans. You can even keep many of the "Roman imperial" motifs with because lets be honest, the Chinese, Japanese Empires weren't that different in Game of Thrones backstabbing from the Romans and with the more frankly aesthetic Chinese/East Asian empires we can also keep them in line with how we are told Romulans are, Artistic, Cultured, Admirers of beauty, Romulus is a artistic, cultural garden planet, Romulans are emotional, warlike and cultured.
Frankly I would rather Romulans have this sort of aesthetic
Than the grey shoulderpad suit, Vulcan haircut they got in the TNG era.
The haircut doesn't even make sense. The implication with the Vulcans is the Vulcans don't care about aesthetics and thus just have a simple utilitarian haircut. Why would the EMOTIONAL and ARTISTIC Romulans who rejected Suraks teachings have the same haircut but often just have it with a big spike instead?
I also like you brought up Kelvin Verse Romulans, because JJ actually agreed somewhat with me, in that Romulans had been massively mishandled and basically they looked like shit. 2009 also has one of my favourite shots of a Romulan, Neros Wife. Why? Because she has normal hair. showing that Romulans are not basically "Evil Vulcans" like TNG presented them.
It's up there with my other favourite Romulan in Trek.
What TNG did to the Romulans sucked. Even worse when Picard goes to Romulus and the cities are basically medieval tier and people walk around with fire torches and everyone is wearing brown, beige and grey. Which completely conflicts with how we're shown Romulus in matte paintings and told by everyone it's one of the most aesthetically beautiful and cultural planets in the Galaxy.
While I haven't read it (though I hear it's the best representation and redesign of Romulans in Trek) I take from the coverart, they probably went with a more Asian tone with the Romulans.
Which sort of makes Vulcans the South Koreans, and again imposes Vulcan elements on Romulans...
Klingons in early TNG remain mysterious and misunderstood even though folks back in Archer's days already witnessed them in their underwear. What little we see of the Romulans in the 23rd century could well be declared utterly misleading, then, with "minorities", "countercultures" and "radical movements" represented in the encounters. It's just that sooner or later, the Romulans will have to evolve in the direction that makes them Cardassian Copies as stated...
...But that's for the 24th century, allowing DSC to do its own thing and then declare this the ground truth about Romulans for the entire 23rd century.
Timo Saloniemi
Klingons in early TNG remain mysterious and misunderstood even though folks back in Archer's days already witnessed them in their underwear. What little we see of the Romulans in the 23rd century could well be declared utterly misleading, then, with "minorities", "countercultures" and "radical movements" represented in the encounters. It's just that sooner or later, the Romulans will have to evolve in the direction that makes them Cardassian Copies as stated...
...But that's for the 24th century, allowing DSC to do its own thing and then declare this the ground truth about Romulans for the entire 23rd century.
Timo Saloniemi
The reason they're aware of cloaking technology could be Discovery and later on Starfleet decides they need to steal one of these cloaking devices, which was the MO of the Enterprise at that point. Which was very un-Federation like.
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