The Romulan Star Empire in Star Trek: Discovery

[Ithekro]

The Vulcans and Romulans look reasonably close to each other in appearance is a major plot point for multiple stories and one of the basic characteristics of the species. Human or near-human with pointed ears. Also if they do intend to do that weird plotline about Sarek being also the Romulan Commander in a different timeline, than the Romulan and Vulcan versions need to appear close to the same. (Though one wonders what the Klingon version of Mark Lenard would look like now).

 

[Kemaiku]

The Vulcans and Romulans look reasonably close to each other in appearance is a major plot point for multiple stories...

In a defunct universe aimed at people who know that. They want people who know that Romulans are alien enemies to watch this, and are changing any and all TOS lore that gets in the way to appeal to as many people as possible.

The Kelvin Rommies will be the least you can expect.

 

[Ithekro]

Kelvin Romulans are basically humans with pointed ears. They aren't much different from TOS or TNG Romulans other than they have tattooed their faces, shaved off their hair in shame and look scraggly because they didn't shave that morning, cause revenge is more important than appearances.

 

[Kemaiku]

Kelvin Romulans are basically humans with pointed ears. They aren't much different from TOS or TNG Romulans other than they have tattooed their faces, shaved off their hair in shame and look scraggly because they didn't shave that morning, cause revenge is more important than appearances.

Yet a Prime Universe crew recognised them on sight in 2233, so obviously enough of them looked like that back then for Robau to know who they were. Leading the survivors to testify they were attacked by a Romulan ship, for a younger cadet Pike to write a dissertation during his time at the Academy about it, for Kelvin Kirk to read the word "Romulan" from it.

So yeah, they looked like Nero 40 years at least before TOS.

 

[Timo]

Umm, what? Nobody on the Kelvin knew who Nero's people were. They looked like Vulcans and were asking about a guy looking like a Vulcan, which may narrow it down to just fifty or so species - but they weren't likened to either Vulcans or Romulans in dialogue.

Decades later, our heroes know that Nero's ship was Romulan, express no surprise at seeing Nero's face, immediately tell him they'll take their grievances about Nero to the Romulan Star Empire, and even can tell all three dialects of the Romulan language apart from the similar Vulcanese. But that's decades later, and one could fit a "Balance of Terror" or three in between.

When Pike wrote his dissertation and what word he used for the villains of the piece back then is not established. For all we know, he wrote the text two years before Kirk read it, but even at that late date put X in place of the species name - so that Kirk, who got to read the revised version, understands all about the connection between space thunderstorms and people looking Vulcan or Romulan, yet Pike himself apparently has to be told about this by the better-informed reader of his texts...

In any case, that is two timelines with Romulans who look like people with pointy ears. No reason to expect the newest "timeline" to either hold true to that or to effect a change - except Star Trek has already been through two changes on its classic villains, big with Klingons and subtle with Romulans, and has explicitly dealt with the backlash in storylines. So it's a bit unlikely they'd dive into a third change without expecting it to become another explicit plot point sooner rather than later!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kemaiku]

Umm, what? Nobody on the Kelvin knew who Nero's people were.

Kirk said he read Pike's dissertation, in which he described the Kelvin being attacked by one massive "Romulan ship". Since those are written at the Academy, Pike was likely writing it during the hype Starfleet created around the loss of the ship and breaking ground on the Kelvin archive (S31 responce base in reality). And Spock even says that sparing Nero could be used to bargin for peace with Romulus.

They sure as hell knew. Or why would everyone through the whole film from Pike's youth to the end of the movie be throwing around the words "Romulan" and "Romulus" before Nero himself uses them in the dialogue?

 

[Ithekro]

And that was not the point I was making. The point was that Romulans, if seen in Discovery, should still be basically humans with pointy ears, just like, or similar to, the Vulcans. That was the point.

Not that anyone had seen one or not in the timeline. Not who or when Kirk or Pike knew why was or was not a Romulan. That's besides the point of their physical appearance.

 

[Timo]

Again, we have no real reason to think Pike wrote the dissertation at any specific date over another. And Pike, out of all people, is utterly ignorant of Romulans being connected to space thunderstorms - even Spock is more ready to accept the connection than the old fool is. What excuse does Pike have for being such a fool but the failure to understand that Nero's ship was Romulan?

Well, the part where he's old. "Romulan" is revisionism, and revisionism is for the young.

The Romulans revealed their cards in the mid-23rd century in one timeline. They did so at the whim of a Praetor. The whim could have come a bit earlier in the Kelvinverse. But there's no need for it to contradict either half of the concept that the timelines only diverged after 2233 - the "explicit writer intent" bit, or the "in-universe" bit.

The "Romulans look like Vulcans" bit is a no-brainer, as Trek past TOS has always been all about canon, amusingly enough. Regardless of whether it attempts to be daring and radically new or not, it always ends up tying all the loose ends, referring back, even inventing any excuse to show Kirk's old ship and a picture of Shatner in one of 'em old uniforms. I have very little faith that DSC would even attempt to try to dare do differently. But if it did, it'd very soon walk to Canonossa anyway.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kemaiku]

The film wants us to assume he knew they were Romulans from appearance, that they always looked like that.

Fans can argue forever on this, but it was the intent and driving part of the plot. Discovery is going to change things a lot harder and with less gentleness, fans need to really be ready for that.

 

[fireproof78]

That wasn't their skin. It was part of the mold/plaster. We don't even know if that was meant to be Andorian. Though it probably was.

They can't visually change the Romulans without changing the Vulcans, and Vulcans look identical to the previous series.

That's not entirely true, since TNG Romulans had the "V" shape across their brow. We only saw I think four Romulan foreheads in TOS (Romulan Commander, Centurion, Romulan Commander and Tal).

Then why keep the Vulcans the same? Make them more alien, not just Space Elves.

They've already proven they're keeping at least one alien species identical, why can't some others like the Romulans stay the same?

Leonard Nimoy would have something to say about calling Vulcans "Space Elves"

Again, we have no real reason to think Pike wrote the dissertation at any specific date over another. And Pike, out of all people, is utterly ignorant of Romulans being connected to space thunderstorms - even Spock is more ready to accept the connection than the old fool is. What excuse does Pike have for being such a fool but the failure to understand that Nero's ship was Romulan?

Wait? Pike didn't know they were Romulans? Since when? I mean, the lightning storm connection seems kind of silly that he didn't know, but there was no sign of the Narada when Spock returned, vs what the Kelvin encountered, so I give a small pass.

Number two, why is Pike a fool? Such harsh language for no apparent reason.

 

[Timo]

The film wants us to assume he knew they were Romulans from appearance, that they always looked like that.

Those are two completely separate things. "They always looked like that" is the default setting, and the movie doesn't want to shake default - indeed, it wants us to think that there's nothing new there before 2233 (even though we can tell this is not quite true, as "their" 23rd century has production values differing from those of "earlier" 23rd century).

But keeping the default setting is in no way dependent on the heroes of 2233 recognizing the Romulans. And indeed we see no signs of recognition when we see 2233.

Wait? Pike didn't know they were Romulans? Since when?

The question apparently is "until when?" instead, as he shouldn't have known in 2233 yet. That's in the rules of Star Trek, and nothing about the movie broke those rules, so the burden of proof would be on showing that "Romulans" would be a factor in 2233 already.

I mean, the lightning storm connection seems kind of silly that he didn't know, but there was no sign of the Narada when Spock returned, vs what the Kelvin encountered, so I give a small pass.

That Chekov in his PA is even mentioning the space storm is extremely odd - what does that have to do with anything, least of all seismic trouble on Vulcan? It very much looks as if Pike is telling him to mention the space storm. But those space storms have only one known consequence - the emergence of giant Romulan vessels. Is Pike disassociating the storm with Romulan superships, or just with Romulans? He seems opposed to the idea that Romulans would be involved, but also to the idea that a ship would be involved, so it could go either way. But either way, he's a fool.

Number two, why is Pike a fool? Such harsh language for no apparent reason.

He's the Federation expert on what's happening on Vulcan. Why is he being upstaged by a cadet? The fool was about to kill the thousands aboard his ship and under his command.

Not that Kirk's intervention did anything much. Raising the shields did not protect the ship from an immediate ambush - the debris field protected the ship from an immediate ambush, delaying Nero's reaction so that Pike could see the threat first and order shields raised in any case. In essence, it was Sulu's lack of piloting skill that saved the ship, by making the Enterprise late for the massacre...

(We could speculate, though, that Kirk's rantings made Sulu extra careful in entering Vulcan orbit and avoided a worse collision - and/or that raising shields when you have cadets for crew is slow business, and Pike couldn't have done it in time if merely spotting Nero's ship when he did.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MFB]

I am pretty sure Starfleet Command discovered soon the attackers were Romulans during their investigation of the incident (for example by analyzing the universal translator logs and finding out Ayel spoke Romulan while contacting the Kelvin). But there ist nothing in the movie that implies anybody on board the Kelvin knew their attackers where Romulans.

(I think the movie novelization impute the Kelvin Crew do recognize them als Romulans but I don't think that was based on any script and just an idea of Alan Dean Foster. I only read parts of his two novelizations but I think he tends to add unnecessary and conflicting explanations.)

 

[Timo]

A lot then hinges on the Federation knowing the Romulan language. Until this movie, we could have assumed it was a distinct language that bore no resemblance to Vulcan (and ENT "Minefield" supports this notion), but here it's a plot point that a Starfleet communications officer may confuse Romulan for Vulcan. If this is possible in 2258, how come everybody didn't realize back in 2161 or even 2152 that Romulans, those faceless folks speaking Romulan over subspace, are related to Vulcans?

What Robau's team sees or hears is not telling in itself. They see bald Vulcanoids, but don't exclaim "Vulcans!", suggesting the looks aren't proprietary to Vulcans. They hear English over their UTs, but don't exclaim "This is translated from Vulcan/Romulan!", possibly telling about the UT more than about the languages used. There's nothing identifiably Vulcan or Romulan about the machinery Nero's team operates, supposedly. Nothing Nero says or does or shows relates him to Vulcans or Romulans. Even this "Ambassador Spock" character, who at the very least sports the classic Vulcan male hairdo to accompany his ears, isn't explicitly related to a species or a culture.

In order to come to the realization that Nero was Romulan, the Federation must be getting information not offered to the audience. Perhaps there was indeed something in the UT to tie the source language to the language used for the 2161 treaty? Perhaps another, unrelated incident revealed to the Feds that Romulans are using mining rigs like this (Nero's could be an old piece of junk), or at least bits of technology also found aboard Nero's ship. Perhaps "Balance of Terror" happens to Captain Dunsel in 2251.

Or perhaps the camera just missed all those scenes where Robau's team goes "Romulans!" because everybody since 2161 has known what those people look like, and instead something weird happened later on to make the Kirk of the other timeline forget what Romulans look like?

In any case, the movie desperately wants to retain old Trek truths, but makes a mess of it. And it then becomes a chore for fans or later writers to mop it all up. This is a pattern, something that has happened with every "radically new departure" that Trek has attempted to make. Even if DSC declared that Romulans have wings, then, this would thus just become an exercise in undoing, excusing or smoothing over the change for future writers...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

The film wants us to assume he knew they were Romulans from appearance, that they always looked like that.

Fans can argue forever on this, but it was the intent and driving part of the plot. Discovery is going to change things a lot harder and with less gentleness, fans need to really be ready for that.

in 1979, ST:TMP totally changed the look of Klingons a lot harder and with a lot less gentleness, and fans back then ended up accepting it (after being a bit surprised by it).

 

[fireproof78]

That Chekov in his PA is even mentioning the space storm is extremely odd - what does that have to do with anything, least of all seismic trouble on Vulcan? It very much looks as if Pike is telling him to mention the space storm. But those space storms have only one known consequence - the emergence of giant Romulan vessels. Is Pike disassociating the storm with Romulan superships, or just with Romulans? He seems opposed to the idea that Romulans would be involved, but also to the idea that a ship would be involved, so it could go either way. But either way, he's a fool.

I read the situation very differently than you then, and see no reason for the "fool" comment. Pike struck me as cautious, not opposed, because he's asking for evidence that there is an attack. It's seismic disturbance on Vulcan, and the astronomical phenomenon occurred within the same time frame.

He's the Federation expert on what's happening on Vulcan. Why is he being upstaged by a cadet? The fool was about to kill the thousands aboard his ship and under his command.

Pike never struck me as being the expert on what was occurring on Vulcan. If you are referring to it being an attack, the Narada didn't use the drill as an attack, and there was no reason to suspect that Vulcan was being bombarded by missiles.

Not that Kirk's intervention did anything much. Raising the shields did not protect the ship from an immediate ambush - the debris field protected the ship from an immediate ambush, delaying Nero's reaction so that Pike could see the threat first and order shields raised in any case. In essence, it was Sulu's lack of piloting skill that saved the ship, by making the Enterprise late for the massacre...

(We could speculate, though, that Kirk's rantings made Sulu extra careful in entering Vulcan orbit and avoided a worse collision - and/or that raising shields when you have cadets for crew is slow business, and Pike couldn't have done it in time if merely spotting Nero's ship when he did.)

Timo Saloniemi

His lack of familiarity with the Enterprise system seemed more responsible, as when Spock mentions it, Sulu seems embarrassed at the oversight. Sulu certainly doesn't seem to lack piloting skill.

 

[Kemaiku]

in 1979, ST:TMP totally changed the look of Klingons a lot harder and with a lot less gentleness, and fans back then ended up accepting it (after being a bit surprised by it).

And I'm expecting pretty much the same from this series, since Fuller mentioned several existing species had been changed.

 

[Tenacity]

TPTB might not even have the Vulcans and the Romulans be related to each other. Two entirely separate species.

 

[Kemaiku]

Or that. But that does remove some basic plot ideas they could use. I'd prefer the Romulans to have had a much more drastic change after leaving the planet for another environment, and let the paranoia of their society really run rampant.

 

[Tuskin38]

TPTB might not even have the Vulcans and the Romulans be related to each other. Two entirely separate species.

Not based on the comments they've made at Comic-Con and STLV.

 

[Tenacity]

Not based on the comments they've made at Comic-Con and STLV.

Ultimately, the only things that will matter is what appears on screen.

The off screen opinions of production staff and actors are amusing trivia.