I'll take three.
The one disappointment I have with TNG Romulans versus TOS ones is the helmets went away. I think more aliens in Star Trek need cool looking helmets like that.
The Romulan Star Empire in Star Trek: Discovery
- Thread starter INACTIVEUSS Einstein
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The one disappointment I have with TNG Romulans versus TOS ones is the helmets went away. I think more aliens in Star Trek need cool looking helmets like that.
An excellent point. In the context of the film, Spock sets off the Red Matter, he's unsuccessful, Romulus explodes, and the Jellyfish and the Narada are sucked into the resulting black hole, all in a few seconds. I don't recall what the comic stated, but apparently there was a large gap of time between the destruction of Romulus and when the Narada actually gets "Borgified" and goes though the black hole. This is contradictory to what we see in the movie.
If the comic has time in between, that makes no sense. Why would Spock have stayed near the edge of a black hole after the destruction of Romulus? Along with that, I doubt the first thing on Nero and his crew's mind would be to get tattoos and then avenge the death of their home planet.
The movie made more sense in that the Narada seemed to be returning home, witnessed what happened, and chased Spock down.
There is the large gap of time after the Kelvin incident and the Narada finding Spock (prison time on Rura Penthe), but of course that's after emerging from the black hole.
Whether even the prison time would make a good addition to the canon of the movie is debatable. It's not as if Nero's 25 years of waiting would require an explanation. He has to wait, because he doesn't have Spock and the red matter yet. Plus, he has to repair his ship the best he can, and learn the art of predicting the spatiotemporal coordinates of Spock's timehole emergence.
The comic/cutting room floor version involving the prison detour would have us assume that Nero not only can break jail, but also can retake command of his ship. In DS9 "By Inferno's Light", Bashir, Worf and Garak did much the same, but they probably were supposed to escape anyway. Would the Klingons have released Nero and given him his ship back in the hopes that he'd hurt the enemies of the Empire? But the timeline is wonky: from movie dialogue, we learn that Spock's arrival took place at "2200 hours" and the rumpus at the Klingon prison planet was at "2300 hours", so Klingons actually get involved only after we see Nero at large and in the process of capturing Spock.
Timo Saloniemi
The comic/cutting room floor version involving the prison detour would have us assume that Nero not only can break jail, but also can retake command of his ship. In DS9 "By Inferno's Light", Bashir, Worf and Garak did much the same, but they probably were supposed to escape anyway. Would the Klingons have released Nero and given him his ship back in the hopes that he'd hurt the enemies of the Empire? But the timeline is wonky: from movie dialogue, we learn that Spock's arrival took place at "2200 hours" and the rumpus at the Klingon prison planet was at "2300 hours", so Klingons actually get involved only after we see Nero at large and in the process of capturing Spock.
Timo Saloniemi
In the comic book, Spock got to the Hobus star after Romulus was already destroyed. He promised the Romulan people that he would help save Romulus, and went to the Vulcan Science Council, entreating them to hand over some red matter to the Romulans so they could destroy the Hobus star and save Romulus and the galaxy. Unfortunately, the Vulcan Science Council turned down Spock, in fear that the Romulans would turn the red matter into a weapon.
Shortly after, the Hobus star went supernova, destroying Romulus.
Nero and his crew went mad with grief, blaming Spock and Vulcan. He and his crew began attacking and destroying every Federation ship they came across.
In the meantime, the Hobus star supernova became bigger, and the Vulcan Science Council realized that hey... this may actually threaten the galaxy, not just the Romulan Empire. So they gave Spock the red matter to destroy it. As he was in the process of destroying the Hobus star supernova with the red matter, Nero and his crew found him and attacked, leading to them both being sucked into the resulting black hole.
The comics made Nero a more sympathetic character, IMO. The Vulcans really did screw him and every other Romulan over.
Is this why Prime Spock thinks the universe is righting itself in the new reality? Pompous Prime Vulcans allow Romulus to be destroyed, (hope to God Vulcan was kicked out of the Federation for assisted genocide), so in the new reality Vulcan is destroyed?
Maybe they can do a story where Romulan agents co opt members of the Federation government? 
Another point directly contradicted by the movie, where Spock explicitly states that the unthinkable happened while he was en route.
Indeed. Since the comic version of the events can't be made to mesh with the movie, though, we're left to wonder what Spock or the Vulcans actually did wrong in the movie reality. In the comic, Spock and Nero are pals (because Nero is the guy who finds out Hobus is about to blow, and is central to the events for that reason); in the movie, they probably first meet at the black hole. In the comic, Romulus for some reason has no other surviving fighting assets besides Nero's mining rig, which is why he gets the mission of revenge; in the movie, nothing is said about the resources of Romulus, and Nero indeed denounces Romulus and claims he stands alone - and he's unlikely to be lying out of fear of political consequences to Romulus or anything like that, since the man he speaks to is about to die soon. So the movie crops it to just the two Vulcanoids, eliminating their respective governments. And, incidentally, any insight into why Spock or the Vulcans might be to blame for what happened.
Timo Saloniemi
A combination of that, and the crew of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Uhura, Scotty, Sulu, and Chekov being united (albeit several years early), despite the change in the timeline.
Again, it seems to me that Romulans must have multiple subcultures, and frankly that forehead ridge seems a pretty clear case of ethnic diversity. Nero & company's tattoos seem examples of cultural diversity.
Mind you, since we know of other Vulcanoid races (the Mintakans come to mind--and there was a TNG episode showing a clip of a party among "Rigellians" and Romulans, but everyone looked Romulan) exist, how do we know for sure all the "Romulans" we've seen even are pure bred Romulans? The ancient history of the split which created the Romulan Star Empire is likely obscure, and one can see the political advantage of claiming some conquered peoples are in fact cousins, much as the Nazis looked at Austria, Denmark, Sweden, etc. We know of at least one conquered race--the Remans--who do look vaguely Vulcanoid and were used as troops by the Empire.
As far as the empire's size, I suspect it is pretty damn big. It tipped the balance in the Dominion War, and as has been pointed out evidently their soldiers regularly see war. They may be smaller than the Federation or the Klingons. Maybe. Or larger. Certainly their resources are nothing to sneeze at! Remember the galaxy is friggin' HUGE. If the Klingons, Romulans, Federation, Ferengi and Cardassians each controlled a million star systems that still makes up less than one percent of the systems in the Alpha Quadrant! For all we know the Romulan Star Empire is bigger than the Federation and Klingons combined! Perhaps they are so busy putting down rebellions and conquering others they use up a serious percentage of the GNP each year. Long term wars spur technological and tactical advances, sure, but they also use up material and population while creating political chaos.--especially in a culture that evidently values byzantine intrigue. A distracted and paranoid/cautious giant suffering from extreme vanity.
Mind you, since we know of other Vulcanoid races (the Mintakans come to mind--and there was a TNG episode showing a clip of a party among "Rigellians" and Romulans, but everyone looked Romulan) exist, how do we know for sure all the "Romulans" we've seen even are pure bred Romulans? The ancient history of the split which created the Romulan Star Empire is likely obscure, and one can see the political advantage of claiming some conquered peoples are in fact cousins, much as the Nazis looked at Austria, Denmark, Sweden, etc. We know of at least one conquered race--the Remans--who do look vaguely Vulcanoid and were used as troops by the Empire.
As far as the empire's size, I suspect it is pretty damn big. It tipped the balance in the Dominion War, and as has been pointed out evidently their soldiers regularly see war. They may be smaller than the Federation or the Klingons. Maybe. Or larger. Certainly their resources are nothing to sneeze at! Remember the galaxy is friggin' HUGE. If the Klingons, Romulans, Federation, Ferengi and Cardassians each controlled a million star systems that still makes up less than one percent of the systems in the Alpha Quadrant! For all we know the Romulan Star Empire is bigger than the Federation and Klingons combined! Perhaps they are so busy putting down rebellions and conquering others they use up a serious percentage of the GNP each year. Long term wars spur technological and tactical advances, sure, but they also use up material and population while creating political chaos.--especially in a culture that evidently values byzantine intrigue. A distracted and paranoid/cautious giant suffering from extreme vanity.
@Kor - That has always been what I assumed Remans were; I'm glad in the Pocket Books continuity at least, it has been established - they also suggested that those Romulans who possess a forehead ridge may have acquired that trait from another Vulcanoid people - the Debrune - the same civilization that left ruins in the Neutral Zone in "Gambit, Part I and II". In my head canon, I also include another Vulcanoid offshoot people in the Romulan Empire - the Garidians, from Star Trek: A Final Unity. But it is also possible the Romulans and Remans have some small alien admixture; their proximity to Vulcans means I don't think the Romulans are very genetically distant however - they lack telepathy and ponn farr, but otherwise appear physically almost identical to Vulcans.
As a kid, before Nemesis came out, the consensus I think most of us had was that the Romulus system was unusually blessed with two M-class planets, right next door to each other, and that the Romulans thus had an advantage over most other races in their early history, being spread across two planets.
I can't say I was really happy that this concept was dropped in favor of a Reman sub-species, at least at the time, because I thought it was a little off putting that the Romulans had an entire planetary slave class in their own system; again it was one of these times when Star Trek lapsed into playing the space fantasy game, by bringing back archaic social systems in supposedly advanced times. But I guess it is not impossible.
It could be that Romulans are a majority on Remus too, but that the Remans are considered the native ethnic group, having been descended from Romulan laborers in their early history. It could be that they are one of numerous auxiliaries in the Romulan Empire. It could be that Remus is the equivalent of the pre-Civil War south, with rich Romulan land owners, who have a lot of influence in the senate, owning plantations and living in large manors, employing the Remans on their dilithium mines.
In classical societies you had some very stark relationships between different classes - such as the famous case of the Spartans and Helots - but I can't say that I liked the idea of Romulans being brought closer to classical inspirations, just because they had the Romulus/Remus as their namesake. But now that it is canon, we have to accept it and move on.
I think Nemesis should have been more about the Romulans themselves, not a subject species, and should have been epic in scope, with perhaps Commander Sela returning as the final TNG villain, wrapping up a long thread, and giving Picard and crew a Undiscovered Country style sendoff/closure. I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way - a disappointing missed opportunity to seal the Next Generation era.
As a kid, before Nemesis came out, the consensus I think most of us had was that the Romulus system was unusually blessed with two M-class planets, right next door to each other, and that the Romulans thus had an advantage over most other races in their early history, being spread across two planets.
I can't say I was really happy that this concept was dropped in favor of a Reman sub-species, at least at the time, because I thought it was a little off putting that the Romulans had an entire planetary slave class in their own system; again it was one of these times when Star Trek lapsed into playing the space fantasy game, by bringing back archaic social systems in supposedly advanced times. But I guess it is not impossible.
It could be that Romulans are a majority on Remus too, but that the Remans are considered the native ethnic group, having been descended from Romulan laborers in their early history. It could be that they are one of numerous auxiliaries in the Romulan Empire. It could be that Remus is the equivalent of the pre-Civil War south, with rich Romulan land owners, who have a lot of influence in the senate, owning plantations and living in large manors, employing the Remans on their dilithium mines.
In classical societies you had some very stark relationships between different classes - such as the famous case of the Spartans and Helots - but I can't say that I liked the idea of Romulans being brought closer to classical inspirations, just because they had the Romulus/Remus as their namesake. But now that it is canon, we have to accept it and move on.
I think Nemesis should have been more about the Romulans themselves, not a subject species, and should have been epic in scope, with perhaps Commander Sela returning as the final TNG villain, wrapping up a long thread, and giving Picard and crew a Undiscovered Country style sendoff/closure. I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way - a disappointing missed opportunity to seal the Next Generation era.
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I would think that, in an empire with a tendency toward paranoia and given to intrigue, diversity in culture and ethnicity would be both celebrated and very carefully 'managed'.
Hearts and minds.
"See how diverse we are - but we are all good Romulans..."
Hearts and minds.
"See how diverse we are - but we are all good Romulans..."
@USS Einstein: In one of your posts above, you mention about thinking as a kid that there were two founding planets for the Romulans.
In "Balance of Terror", it was established and shown on the viewscreen that there were twin worlds: Romulus and Remus. I loved that, because it fit with the Roman mythology of Romulus and Remus, being raised by wolves and then founding the Roman Empire on Earth.
In "Balance of Terror", it was established and shown on the viewscreen that there were twin worlds: Romulus and Remus. I loved that, because it fit with the Roman mythology of Romulus and Remus, being raised by wolves and then founding the Roman Empire on Earth.
![320x240[1].jpg](https://www.trekbbs.com/data/attachments/1/1488-c11ad540618eb0da7af9eeb6fac23fc5.jpg "320x240[1].jpg")
Quite so. And whether Romii or ROM II or whatever even could be a twin planet to Romulus depends greatly on the scale of that map.That yellowish dot is more or less as far away from the ringed dot as the Neutral Zone is thick. Most other Trek would have the RNZ at least one lightyear thick or perhaps thicker, holding several star systems within its thickness and all.
Other things to ponder: "Reman" in ST:NEM is not the name of a species or a subculture, but of a national/planetary identity, of citizenship. The Viceroy is Reman, but so is Shinzon!
...Or at least that's how he identifies himself to Starfleet, as per Admiral Janeway, until Picard gets to see the ground truth of the matter. In the long-dark-teatime-of-the-soul discussion with Picard, Shinzon repeatedly distances himself from "the Remans" or his "Reman brothers".
We don't know how these things "generally" go in Trek. Odo was Bajoran on occasion, sometimes in the pejorative sense; Worf was never called Human, but then again, the Feds are an extremely rare example of a culture not identified with a single species. Trills are Trills regardless of whether there's a Trill inside them. And Vulcans have trouble accepting Spock as one of their own, so Amanda Grayson probably never stood a chance.
Timo Saloniemi
Other things to ponder: "Reman" in ST:NEM is not the name of a species or a subculture, but of a national/planetary identity, of citizenship. The Viceroy is Reman, but so is Shinzon!
...Or at least that's how he identifies himself to Starfleet, as per Admiral Janeway, until Picard gets to see the ground truth of the matter. In the long-dark-teatime-of-the-soul discussion with Picard, Shinzon repeatedly distances himself from "the Remans" or his "Reman brothers".
We don't know how these things "generally" go in Trek. Odo was Bajoran on occasion, sometimes in the pejorative sense; Worf was never called Human, but then again, the Feds are an extremely rare example of a culture not identified with a single species. Trills are Trills regardless of whether there's a Trill inside them. And Vulcans have trouble accepting Spock as one of their own, so Amanda Grayson probably never stood a chance.
Timo Saloniemi
Looks to be a contradiction, then. According to Kirk's log entry at the beginning of the episode, he says Romulus and Remus.
Overall, it's not a contradiction: all the pieces fit together easily enough. Romii and Romulus would be in separate star systems rather than twins in the "modern" take on that map's scale; perhaps those are the only two Romulan star systems known by name to the Federation (and probably incorrectly at that)? We simply are still left waiting for that fantastic adventure involving Romii and the Romiians in the neighboring star system.
The ST:NEM setup where Romulus and Remus go around their sun on parallel orbits of slightly differing radii makes for good dramatic sense, and may even be taken to mean that the Romulans chose a system that best resembled the old Vulcan system. After all, Vulcan, too, apparently has a sister planet (because there's that big round thing on the sky sometimes and they say it's not a moon) that would seem to come and go like Remus in the ST:NEM arrangement should.
Timo Saloniemi
The ST:NEM setup where Romulus and Remus go around their sun on parallel orbits of slightly differing radii makes for good dramatic sense, and may even be taken to mean that the Romulans chose a system that best resembled the old Vulcan system. After all, Vulcan, too, apparently has a sister planet (because there's that big round thing on the sky sometimes and they say it's not a moon) that would seem to come and go like Remus in the ST:NEM arrangement should.
Timo Saloniemi
Agreed - most sources have treated the dots on that map as different systems - they are separated by stars - we may never know what the original intent was, but I just assumed Romii was another strategically important location marked by Starfleet.
Also I like Timo's idea that Reman is a national term, rather than a species.
Also I like Timo's idea that Reman is a national term, rather than a species.
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