The Romulan Star Empire in Star Trek: Discovery

[Dukhat]

Which still means someone knew what Romulans looked like the moment the Kelvin crew described them.

No one in the Kelvin scenes described their attackers as Romulans. Or even Vulcans for that matter. They give every indication that they have no idea who these people are.

The identification of the Narada as a Romulan ship only comes years after the fact. Obviously in the Kelvin timeline Starfleet eventually found out what the Romulans looked like because of this incident. Like Nerys Myk said, it's their version of Balance of Terror.

 

[Kemaiku]

Kirk mentioned that Pike had named the Romulans in his dissertation, I'm guessing this was many years prior to Kirk even going to the Academy, closer to the incident.

So can't have taken long, people knew what they looked like before 2240 in this series of events, over 20 years earlier than before. And no one batting an eyelid at the tattoos.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kirk mentioned that Pike had named the Romulans in his dissertation, I'm guessing this was many years prior to Kirk even going to the Academy, closer to the incident.

So can't have taken long, people knew what they looked like before 2240 in this series of events, over 20 years earlier than before. And no one batting an eyelid at the tattoos.

They probably knew by the first debrief of the Kelvin's crew. It would be "old news" by the time Pike wrote his dissertation

 

[Kemaiku]

Exactly, so I'm not sure why people are surprised Romulans are so openly known in these movies.

 

[Dukhat]

...with this particular one being seen to wear tattoos as a sign of mourning for the loss of their planet.

That's not actually correct. That's what was mentioned in the comic tie-in to Star Trek '09, but like much of that comic, it was contradicted by the film itself. We saw a hologram of Nero's wife before Romulus was destroyed, and she had tattoos too. So it couldn't be because they were mourning the loss of their planet. Most likely they all had the tattoos long before.

 

[The Wormhole]

No, they discovered what the Romulans looked liked. Same as in Balance of Terror.

But how would they find out Nero and his crew were Romulans? After all, as pointed out not once did Nero identify himself as Romulan, and I doubt anyone recognized Narada as a Romulan design. If Kirk knew the Kelvin was destroyed by Romulans from Pike's dissertation, it must be because everyone recognized Romulans and their appearance was never a secret in the Kelvin Timeline.

Besides, if Trek XI really was the Kelvin crew's first time seeing a Romulan, why didn't anyone react in shock at their resemblance to Vulcans like in Balance of Terror?

 

[USS Triumphant]

Honestly, the tattoos for mourning thing is kind of silly - I mean, it could be the reason for them, but it isn't like there needs to be some special reason. People (including people of other species, in sci-fi) have tattoos and piercings for all sorts of reasons including the ones humans do. Nero is the equivalent of a miner or an oil rigger - professions where you're expected to be tough, and tattoos applied traditionally demonstrate a tolerance for pain. I no more question his tattoos than I would any given truck driver's.

 

[USS Triumphant]

But how would they find out Nero and his crew were Romulans? After all, as pointed out not once did Nero identify himself as Romulan, and I doubt anyone recognized Narada as a Romulan design. If Kirk knew the Kelvin was destroyed by Romulans from Pike's dissertation, it must be because everyone recognized Romulans and their appearance was never a secret in the Kelvin Timeline.

Or, because they were transmitting in Romulan and the UT took care of it but the ship's computer still registered and showed the comm officer what language it was?

Besides, if Trek XI really was the Kelvin crew's first time seeing a Romulan, why didn't anyone react in shock at their resemblance to Vulcans like in Balance of Terror?

Maybe there didn't happen to be a bigoted jackwagon with a personal family vendetta on the bridge like Kirk was unfortunate enough to have? And maybe the Kelvin didn't have a Vulcan serving aboard to make the situation as awkward and the contrast as shocking as it was aboard the Enterprise.

 

[fireproof78]

Good answer. That was going to be my response too. Given that Starfleet and the Romulans communicated via subspace radio, knowing something about their language and codes would be important.

Honestly, the tattoos for mourning thing is kind of silly - I mean, it could be the reason for them, but it isn't like there needs to be some special reason. People (including people of other species, in sci-fi) have tattoos and piercings for all sorts of reasons including the ones humans do. Nero is the equivalent of a miner or an oil rigger - professions where you're expected to be tough, and tattoos applied traditionally demonstrate a tolerance for pain. I no more question his tattoos than I would any given truck driver's.

I thought the idea of mourning tattoos to be an interesting idea, and gave Nero's crew a nice distinction, and indicated a shared history.

 

[Nerys Myk]

But how would they find out Nero and his crew were Romulans? After all, as pointed out not once did Nero identify himself as Romulan, and I doubt anyone recognized Narada as a Romulan design. If Kirk knew the Kelvin was destroyed by Romulans from Pike's dissertation, it must be because everyone recognized Romulans and their appearance was never a secret in the Kelvin Timeline.

Maybe because they looked like Vulcans and someone asked the Vulcans if they had some information. Even if the Vulcans weren't forthcoming, they have audio and video data from the attack. Data that could lead them to the Romulans.
1) The Narada attacks the Kelvin
2) The survivors tell investigators the guys who did it look like Vulcans, but are mean and angry.
3) Data from the attack shows a connection to the Romulans (Language, technology etc )
4) Vulcans admit the Romulans are relatives.
5) Secret's out of the bag
6) Pike writes his dissertation
7) Kirk reads Pike's dissertation
8) Kirk goes to the Academy
9) The Narada attacks the Klingons

Besides, if Trek XI really was the Kelvin crew's first time seeing a Romulan, why didn't anyone react in shock at their resemblance to Vulcans like in Balance of Terror?

They had other things on their minds.

 

[captainkirk]

Besides, if Trek XI really was the Kelvin crew's first time seeing a Romulan, why didn't anyone react in shock at their resemblance to Vulcans like in Balance of Terror?

You could say the same thing whenever the Enterprise encounters aliens that look exactly like humans.

 

[Timo]

The aspect that directly relates to STIS here is that it appears very, very easy for the UFP to discover who the Romulans are, in two timelines at least. As discussed above, the Narada incident in itself doesn't seem to provide the necessary cues, or else our clever and resourceful Kelvinites would already have made mention of it. But it probably doesn't take much more than somebody getting interested in this century-old enigma and scratching ever-so-slightly below the surface.

We might do well to assume that the true identity and history of Romulans is known to the UFP, and always was - but that it's a dirty secret that the government manages to keep from its own operatives and the general population, until something happens to trigger a proper investigation.

As regards the Narada incident, we learn from ENT "Minefield" that Romulan is a separate language a linguist cannot mistake for Vulcan - but from STXI that a starship communications officer who (as per evident norm) isn't a linguist can confuse the two, probably because he is ignorant on one or both of the languages. The encounter with Nero has to be studied with that in mind. Clearly, a mere keypress cannot identify the language being spoken (either when coming through the UT or from raw feed), or at least it takes more keypresses than the poor chap in Pike's bridge team is capable of, even when his CO specifically asks him to work it out.

Edit: Okay, so apparently DIS is preferable to ST: DIS...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[a thousand-yard stare]

Hmm. Interesting.
In BoT, Spock says "Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, ..."

This is a century after the war which created the Federation.
The Romulans are not considered to be 'repentant' or to have given up their aggressive stance.
In BoT they demonstrate their continuing hostility by attacking and destroying three outposts which monitor the neutral zone, having crossed said neutral zone in defiance of a treaty which the ongoing cease-fire created.

It always seemed to me that the situation was more like the Korean War, where no side was totally defeated, no peace treaty was signed and there is just a day-by-day armistice

 

[Timo]

The Korean model is ideal in many other ways, too. The opponent is actually relatively puny, and always was (our heroes have all but forgotten about that old scuffle); the enemy enjoys a special relationship with a neighboring, equally puny culture that is close to the heart of the heroes (indeed a strategic ally) and extremely vulnerable to attack due to proximity (as witnessed by many of the episodes and movies involving Romulan scheming); and a Neutral Zone keeps the peace but is subject to many violations that the heroes let pass in the name of said peace.

All that's missing is a competing superpower backing the Romulans / North Koreans. But such backing was only truly relevant back in the days of the actual war in the Korea case - perhaps the same is true of the Romulan War, and the backers have now put some distance between themselves and the Romulan Senate?

In any case, Romulans are famed for their constant interstellar stunts of aggression, possibly conducted mainly for reasons of interior politics (as they almost never achieve anything externally relevant). Kirk and Picard both keep several of these under the lid; the heroes of DIS might have to do the same once or twice in the 2250s.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

I don't think the Romulan Empire is a small state like North Korea, because I mean, it was capable of fielding starships that were on par with Starfleet's top-line research platform, the Galaxy-class, and their input in galactic affairs was large, such as the lengths Sisko went to in securing Romulan support. A better analogy for the way Romulus operates in regard to other states, might be Putin's Russia, which successfully violated Georgian sovereignty, annexed the Crimea and prevented Ukrainian alliance with the west through deception, being just aggressive enough, and with enough deniability, not to provoke a wider war - exactly how the Romulans play things. But their isolationism is reminiscent of Tokogawa Japan, North Korea, China, Russia, etc. It's always tempting to draw direct analogies with real life, but the Romulans are a fictional culture, and thus don't need to be a small hermit state, they can be a huge empire that has maintained a scrupulous silence toward the Federation.

It seems likely that in Star Trek 2009, either 1). the Kelvin timeline as Simon Pegg suggested had an altered history further back than Nero's incursion (and thus Romulan identity wasn't a secret in the first place) or 2). it became widespread knowledge after Nero's attack - it may be that relations with the Romulans are completely different in the Kelvin timeline. There are tantalizing questions, such as why Pike didn't know that Nero was acting separately from the Romulan government. What must his attack have looked like to the Federation? An unknown powerful Romulan warship emerging from 90 years of isolation? How might that have effected the Federation's stance toward Romulus?

 

[KirkusOveractus]

My thinking about knowing about Romulans in the 2009 movie is a simple one: according to the scenes deleted from the movie, the Kelvin ramming the Narada disabled it, with the Klingons approaching and capturing the ship and crew (putting Nero and crew on Rura Penthe for 25 years).

My thinking is that Pike's dissertation came from various sources, including records made public when the Narada crew was sent to Rura Penthe, identified by the Klingons as Romulans.

So to me, it was the Klingons in the alternate timeline who identified the Romulans first, thus making them identifiable before "Balance of Terror" in the Prime Timeline (which happens the way it does because Nero does not destroy the Kelvin, Klingons don't imprison Nero and crew, Pike doesn't write his dissertation, etc.)

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

Yeah, that is a pretty sound theory. For anyone who doesn't know, in the deleted scenes and comics from the movie, the Narada is first disabled by George Kirk's suicide attack, then apprehended by a large Klingon fleet who have been monitoring their border - Nero is taken to Rura Penthe and incarcerated, and the Narada is placed in a parking orbit above - Nero then escapes years later, regaining his ship (which I guess was being studied by the Klingons).

While I'm here, and because I love pictures of starships, lets have a look at some Romulan ships from over the years:

^ This ship is a non-canonical one from the Star Trek: Chronology that was used to represent an early Romulan vessel - I've always liked it, as it looks primative like the SS Valiant

^ The earliest canonical Romulan ship; or rather a modification of an early type of warbird, this vessel was altered from a retired class, possibly with the addition of those antennae

^ This bird-of-prey was the first bona fide Romulan warship that Earth encounters, during it's first contact with the Romulans, and presumably the main combat vessel of the Romulan War

^ By Kirk's time, a more modern bird-of-prey had replaced the Romulan War era one; many species had adopted a grey-white duranium style of hull plating, including the Klingons and Federation

^ Conjectural image of what Romulan ships may have looked like during the Motion Picture era, where we unfortunately have no examples contemporary to the Miranda and K't'inga

^ During their short strategic alliance, in which the Romulan Star Empire and Klingon Empire briefly became a single anti-Federation bloc, the Romulans adopted the Klingon D7

^ The next time the Federation encountered the Romulans was after a long period of isolation, and they were stunned by Romulan progress, which unlike the Klingons, had kept pace with Starfleet

^ Possibly in response to the trend toward faster and leaner ships during the Dominion War, the latest design of Romulan warbird was smaller than the behemoth D'Deridex class

 

[Apparition B5]

Whatever happens, I just hope that they don't mention Remus. I would like to continue pretending that Nemesis never existed.

 

[Kor]

John Byrne's comics depicted the Klingons pulling the strings of the Romulan Empire in the background of the TOS era, much as they acted in "A Private Little War." I thought this was an interesting concept. It's part of my head canon.

As far as Vulcan and Romulan languages not being recognizable as related, I don't think they necessarily need to be. There are plenty of languages right here on Earth that are apparently completely unrelated, some being classified as "language isolates." Why do alien species always have to have only one language (and one culture)?

Kor

 

[fireproof78]

I don't think the Romulan Empire is a small state like North Korea, because I mean, it was capable of fielding starships that were on par with Starfleet's top-line research platform, the Galaxy-class, and their input in galactic affairs was large, such as the lengths Sisko went to in securing Romulan support. A better analogy for the way Romulus operates in regard to other states, might be Putin's Russia, which successfully violated Georgian sovereignty, annexed the Crimea and prevented Ukrainian alliance with the west through deception, being just aggressive enough, and with enough deniability, not to provoke a wider war - exactly how the Romulans play things. But their isolationism is reminiscent of Tokogawa Japan, North Korea, China, Russia, etc. It's always tempting to draw direct analogies with real life, but the Romulans are a fictional culture, and thus don't need to be a small hermit state, they can be a huge empire that has maintained a scrupulous silence toward the Federation.

Not to speak out of turn on this, but I don't think the comparison to N. Korea is a direct, 1-to-1 analogy, of the Romulan Star Empire, but the peace treaty that was established between the Federation and the Romulans.

It seems likely that in Star Trek 2009, either 1). the Kelvin timeline as Simon Pegg suggested had an altered history further back than Nero's incursion (and thus Romulan identity wasn't a secret in the first place) or 2). it became widespread knowledge after Nero's attack - it may be that relations with the Romulans are completely different in the Kelvin timeline. There are tantalizing questions, such as why Pike didn't know that Nero was acting separately from the Romulan government. What must his attack have looked like to the Federation? An unknown powerful Romulan warship emerging from 90 years of isolation? How might that have effected the Federation's stance toward Romulus?

This why I love seeing the tech divergence that seems to be so objected to in ST 2009. But, from the point of view of the Federation, such a response was necessary.

My thinking about knowing about Romulans in the 2009 movie is a simple one: according to the scenes deleted from the movie, the Kelvin ramming the Narada disabled it, with the Klingons approaching and capturing the ship and crew (putting Nero and crew on Rura Penthe for 25 years).

My thinking is that Pike's dissertation came from various sources, including records made public when the Narada crew was sent to Rura Penthe, identified by the Klingons as Romulans.

So to me, it was the Klingons in the alternate timeline who identified the Romulans first, thus making them identifiable before "Balance of Terror" in the Prime Timeline (which happens the way it does because Nero does not destroy the Kelvin, Klingons don't imprison Nero and crew, Pike doesn't write his dissertation, etc.)

I like this theory.