The Return of Data? (spoilers)

[Christopher]

Therin of Andor said:
And I think Paula Block looks at things on a case by case basis. eg. A future novel discussing Vejur's cloud (from TMP) might agree that it was two AUs in diameter (DVD DE) rather than 82 AUs (theatrical and TV versions), since two AUs is more believable.

Not a future novel -- I already did that in Ex Machina, and it was approved. However, I also included a reference to Will Decker's statement "We all create God in our own image," even though that line was cut from the Director's Edition. (One could reconcile that by assuming he said it in some other context or wrote it in his journals or something.)

But I chose to make ExM consistent with the DE because I think the DE is a superior film and more accurately reflects the intent of the filmmakers, not because of some dictate from on high about "canon."

AN_D_K said:
Just been reading The Buried Age. I'm still against a lame return, but I forgot how nice it is to read Data POV parts in these books.

Thanks! Personally, I think there's more to say about Data in the unexplored parts of his earlier life than there would be to say about a reset-buttoned post-NEM Data. After the movies retconned his emotion chip out of existence, Data pretty much stopped undergoing any kind of growth and basically reverted to an earlier characterization. I'm not sure there was really anywhere to take the character from that point.

 

[Hardin]

Christopher said:

Thanks! Personally, I think there's more to say about Data in the unexplored parts of his earlier life than there would be to say about a reset-buttoned post-NEM Data. After the movies retconned his emotion chip out of existence, Data pretty much stopped undergoing any kind of growth and basically reverted to an earlier characterization. I'm not sure there was really anywhere to take the character from that point.

You know, I think this is a much more valid objection to the "resurrection of Data" than the problem of coming up with a good explanation for it. I can accept this much more easily than the "it's been done too many times/it would be too contrived" argument. Not that it matters what I can or cannot accept, obviously

Anyway, I'd like to point out that, at least for me, the desire to get Data back has nothing to do with not finding TNG interesting without him. Far from it. I just love the character and loath both his send off in Nemesis and the way he was used in Insurrection. Luckily there are the books and once again I'm hoping they will fix what the screen has broken

 

[Anubis]

My biggest problem with this whole thing is very complicated. First off, I understand the reluctance to retcon Data's death and that it's a very fanwankish thing to do. Also, I understand that it's not a very creative thing to do either. However, the notion that Data's character had nowhere else to go is insane. Data's life with emotions was never explored in any depth in the films. What about falling in love? Anger, sadness, etc. He basically became a whole new character with so many possibilities. Also, it would have been interesting to see him in a higher command position as first officer. Come on, we all remember Data as captain on the Phoenix, how awesome was that? Even if you don't like Data being completely brought back, why not evolve the character of B-4? He could enter Starfleet Academy maybe? Ensign B-4? Instead, we're stuck with Worf. Worf, who has always bordered on two dimensional and has had 11!, yes 11 years of onscreen "development" and we've decided to keep him on? I'm not trying to be a dick about Worf. I like Worf and I know there are big Worf fans out there, but... I find the ingnoring of Data's legacy or B-4's possibilites (so far anyway) somewhat frustrating.

 

[Malleus]

captcalhoun said:
two Marina Sirtises (Sirtisi? Sirtiss?)

After having found out that she has and had breast implants recently, I am thinking more than ever why she was one of my kiddie crushes in the first place.

 

[nx1701g]

I have to admit that I originally hoped that the novels would bring Data back from the dead; however, after thought recently, I have relented on that opinion. I think that if they made B-4 into Data it'd have a very nasty result.

1.) It would lessen the death of Data in the films (I'm sorry I found it a fitting farewell to the character).

2.) It would be a ripoff of Star Trek III

3.) It would pretty much return us to an old form of Data.

I think that by doing this they would be doing a disservice to the story that is presented. I know a lot of people weren't happy when Data died, but bringing him back again I think would make the character less than what he was.

 

[Harvey]

To throw in my two cents on the issue, Data was always my favorite character from TNG. That said, his death should be final. If they do a resurrection story, I hope it will be a sort of anti-Search for Spock. I want to see Picard (or Geordi) be brought to the brink trying to resurrect Data before finally accepting that his death is definite, and there is no possibility of resurrecting him without some sort of dramatic consequences.

Then again, maybe the novels have already done something along those lines. I can't even find the time to follow the DS9 relaunch these days.

 

[captcalhoun]

For a Data fan, you've got your facts wrong, there pally. Data's only command was the Sutherland, not the Phoenix.

besides, even if B4 was sent to the Academy after somehow respawning Data's conscoiusness, he wouldn't automatically get posted to the E-E and be made number 1. that'd be just wrong.

Data's dead. let him stay that way, in Silicon Heaven.

 

[Anubis]

captcalhoun said:
For a Data fan, you've got your facts wrong, there pally. Data's only command was the Sutherland, not the Phoenix.

Sorry, it's 2 am on Christmas eve. I didn't check my facts.

besides, even if B4 was sent to the Academy after somehow respawning Data's conscoiusness, he wouldn't automatically get posted to the E-E and be made number 1. that'd be just wrong.

I agree, I was talking about if Data's consciousness simply resurfaced and took over (that, and just my simple disappointment in not seeing Data as first officer). I just threw the whole B-4 in the academy thing out there as an interesting direction to take his character, off the top of my head.

I'm not expecting Data to be brought back. But, the impact of his loss and his legacy (B-4) have not been explored at all (yet).

 

[Christopher]

Anubis said:
However, the notion that Data's character had nowhere else to go is insane.

Well, sure, there was more that could be done with the character. But isn't that kind of the point? Death is a tragedy because of the lost opportunities and potentials. It should be frustrating and leave the audience with a sense of loss. It seems rather odd to me to hear people complain that a fictional death does exactly what it's supposed to do. As if death was somehow not supposed to involve loss and regret.

And of course, the real-world reason why Spiner decided to kill off Data had nothing to do with character potential, at I understand it. It mainly had to do with the aging Spiner's inability to convincingly portray an ageless android any longer.

Data's life with emotions was never explored in any depth in the films.

True, but was it going to be? NEM pretty much indicated that Data no longer had the emotion chip anyway at that point.

As far as the books are concerned, though, there's plenty of opportunity to explore his life with emotions in books and stories set in the eight years between GEN and NEM. These include my own "Friends With the Sparrows" in The Sky's the Limit, The Oppressor's Wrong in the Slings and Arrows eBook miniseries, the novel Immortal Coil, and the duology A Time to Be Born/A Time to Die. And there's abundant room to fill in others.

What about falling in love? Anger, sadness, etc.

Just read Immortal Coil. It pretty much covers all the bases.

ven if you don't like Data being completely brought back, why not evolve the character of B-4? He could enter Starfleet Academy maybe? Ensign B-4?

B-4 is a crude prototype with a far less sophisticated brain than Data had. I doubt he'd be capable of functioning at that level any more than an orangutan could.

Besides, we've seen plenty of Starfleet. What about other paths in life? Where's the point in making B-4 a distinct character if you just send him down the same path as Data?

 

[Anubis]

Christopher said:
Well, sure, there was more that could be done with the character. But isn't that kind of the point? Death is a tragedy because of the lost opportunities and potentials. It should be frustrating and leave the audience with a sense of loss. It seems rather odd to me to hear people complain that a fictional death does exactly what it's supposed to do. As if death was somehow not supposed to involve loss and regret.

I totally agree actually. I'm not saying I disliked Data's death (even though I disliked the film it occurred in) and I'm not saying he should be brought back either. I'm just interested in seeing his legacy, and the character of B-4 addressed. I'm glad some of that was done in "Articles", I'm just curious to see more.

As far as the books are concerned, though, there's plenty of opportunity to explore his life with emotions in books and stories set in the eight years between GEN and NEM. These include my own "Friends With the Sparrows" in The Sky's the Limit, The Oppressor's Wrong in the Slings and Arrows eBook miniseries, the novel Immortal Coil, and the duology A Time to Be Born/A Time to Die. And there's abundant room to fill in others.Just read Immortal Coil. It pretty much covers all the bases.

Thanks for recommending those. I'll definitely seek them out. Immortal Coil sounds good.

What about other paths in life? Where's the point in making B-4 a distinct character if you just send him down the same path as Data?

I agree again. I just threw that out there because it popped into my head, and I'd rather see something more interesting done with him like you say.

 

[Ronald Held]

Again, how much does his death have any meaning if he comes back to life in B-4 or due to some other improbable set of events?

 

[BrentMc]

First of all I love Data and I wish he was never killed off. I was very proud of him and it was a meaningful death, but now that the TNG movies are history, we don't have Data in the books (Darn). Geordi seems sad and bored without Data. The Geordi-Data relationship was one of the best aspects of TNG for me. If it were done well, part of me would want to read a Return of Data story...., But that would probably not be a good idea... I think it would be nice if B-4 were used to carry on Soongs work.

Here is a related point I have been thinking of lately. Shouldn't there more Androids and robots?
Most of us have seen the shows where they say how diffcult a transporter would be to make in real life... Shouldn't robot and Android tech have advanced way further by TNG?

Where are the repair robots fixing the radiation flooded areas and the hull breaches? What about defense robots and medical robots. I am just wondering why there aren't more robots!

I want to make it clear I am separating robots and Androids. I would never call Data a robot! I think he is my favorite trek character of any series/book. Maybe Data can be the inspiration for a future generation of Androids. The scientists have their work cut out for them. Data set the bar pretty high.

 

[Christopher]

I think there must be robots of some kind aboard starships, even if we never see them. Why? Because we never see any live people cleaning the floors or anything. All that cleaning has to get done somehow.

 

[Smiley]

Don't they mention in one of the TNG episodes that the ship is self-cleaning? I seem to recall Phil Farrand pointing out in one of his books that that line contradicted the bit in the pilot about Wesley having to go clean up the water drippage from the holodeck.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Merry said:
Don't they mention in one of the TNG episodes that the ship is self-cleaning? I seem to recall Phil Farrand pointing out in one of his books that that line contradicted the bit in the pilot about Wesley having to go clean up the water drippage from the holodeck.

Not really. He probably had to do it as punishment

 

[Defcon]

Christopher said:
I think there must be robots of some kind aboard starships, even if we never see them. Why? Because we never see any live people cleaning the floors or anything. All that cleaning has to get done somehow.

Wasn't there a SNW story about a man who was some kind of janitor on Archer's Enterprise?

 

[Ronald Held]

In thr TNG era, aren't there nanorobots to do the cleaning?

 

[JD]

Ronald Held said:
In thr TNG era, aren't there nanorobots to do the cleaning?

That would definitely explain alot, because I've always wondered how the ships' floors, walls, ect were cleaned.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Merry said:
Don't they mention in one of the TNG episodes that the ship is self-cleaning?

yep, 'Up the Long Ladder'

 

[Anubis]

I think the reason there aren't more robots is because every time Starfleet makes a robot or a hologram to do a job is becomes self aware and gets a lawyer.