Spoilers The Red Suit

[Agony_Boothb]

My guess is that Dr. Burnham was upgrading the suit with different technologies from different time frames. Or perhaps the whole thing was based off tech from the 31st century that found it's way to the 23rd. Perhaps it will be revealed that the tech came from a 31st century starship that crashed in the 23rd century trying to go back in time and defeat control.

Also, where is the future 29th century Starfleet in all this? Surely Mother Burnham would have popped on the time radars or whatever.

 

[Alan Roi]

My guess is that Dr. Burnham was upgrading the suit with different technologies from different time frames. Or perhaps the whole thing was based off tech from the 31st century that found it's way to the 23rd. Perhaps it will be revealed that the tech came from a 31st century starship that crashed in the 23rd century trying to go back in time and defeat control.

Also, where is the future 29th century Starfleet in all this? Surely Mother Burnham would have popped on the time radars or whatever.

I doubt this is the kind of time travel shenanigans they are equipped in dealing with.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I doubt this is the kind of time travel shenanigans they are equipped in dealing with.

Why would they not be equipped to deal with it?

 

[Alan Roi]

Why would they not be equipped to deal with it?

Its not the kind of time travel method they are accustomed to dealing with.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Its not the kind of time travel method they are accustomed to dealing with.

That doesn't answer my question. If you're going to counter a point I've made, at least counter it with something other than a handwave answer The Starfleet of the 29th century was shown as actively monitoring the timeline as was the Starfleet or equivalent organisation of Daniels time. They could detect all type of different time travel methods. So if some entity is going back and forth using time travel methods that are understood by people in the 23rd century, how could Starfleet in a future time period be 'unaccustomed' to it especially when it's their main mission to monitor the timeline?

 

[Dukhat]

That doesn't answer my question. If you're going to counter a point I've made, at least counter it with something other than a handwave answer The Starfleet of the 29th century was shown as actively monitoring the timeline as was the Starfleet or equivalent organisation of Daniels time. They could detect all type of different time travel methods. So if some entity is going back and forth using time travel methods that are understood by people in the 23rd century, how could Starfleet in a future time period be 'unaccustomed' to it especially when it's their main mission to monitor the timeline?

I've mentioned this before in other threads, but one should not count on the 'time cops' to do their job correctly. In the two episodes in which they were featured, it turned out that they were actually the cause of the problems they were sent to fix. Plus, we haven't seen the time cops in 20 years. It's my opinion that we really need to stop with the whole "why didn't the 29th century Starfleet intervene in this or that?!" It's not gonna happen, and we're not going to see them again, because they were just a plot device that didn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[F. King Daniel]

That they had the technology to build an Iron Man 3 suit with the ability to travel anywhere, anywhen via micro wormholes works fine in the context of Discovery as a standalone series based on Trek.
But when you try to make sense of Discovery in the larger Trek universe, it makes an absolute mockery of TOS, Next Gen, DS9 and Voyager (which they already did with the spore drive)

Why don't we have armies of soldiers flying around in non-time travel combat versions of these suits during the Dominion war? Why do bulky, awkward space suits continue to exist in First Contact? All the "Oh, but... [Genesis/tech of the week]" comments don't make this okay, they just emphasise how little TPTB are trying in an era of binge-watching and rewatching, where continuity should mean more than ever.

 

[Cake]

I’m quite astonished by the red “angel” suit and since its multi episode and in the titles thought it worth a discussion. Here’s some “what it can do” powers based on Discovery.
...

Your even forgot something. There was also the thing she did on Kaminar.

It is all so ridiculous. If it would have been really a time traveller from the far away future using super advanced future technology like they implied at first, I could have lived with it. It would have been still stupid, but at least somewhat acceptable. But they went the Section 31 route. Even VOY tech was way too primitive to build something like the red suit. It is a plot device which is able to do everything the writers can think of although it doesn't make any kind of sense in the context of the series and especially not in the context of the whole Star Trek universe.

 

[lawman]

This is only ridiculous if you have this attitude. Throughout the history of ST there have been things that were much more qualified to be described as ridiculous and yet were rationalized. Here most of your accusations can be easily explained by the time crystal and the huge amount of energy stored in the suit and the use of the technobabble already existing in the series. Nothing new in ST.

Not sure what "attitude" you're decrying... the attitude that stories should make logical sense and fit into continuity? Because this really is pretty damn ridiculous.

Note: I'm not saying the concept of a being with these powers is inherently ridiculous; Trek is full of beings with powers even more vast. I'm not even saying that concept of a being in a suit with these powers is ridiculous. What I'm saying is that the concept of a suit with these powers being built by Federation scientists in the 2230s is ridiculous, given everything we know about Trek technology from 50+ years of stories.

The nature of the Red Angel was a pretty interesting mystery for the first half of the season. (Not necessarily a great one, but at least an interesting one, and it provided the motivation for some good side stories along the way.) As soon as the show's creators moved it front and center, though, and provided an "answer" to that mystery, it was clear that the answer given blatantly failed to fit the context laid out earlier in the same season, and indeed just raised more questions than it answered.

At this point, the best speculation anyone can offer is that Mama Burnham somehow "upgraded" the suit with assorted future tech. Extensively. Somehow. On her own. While based in a future where all known sentient life and civilization has been exterminated. (And that still wouldn't explain how or why she chose the specific missions she did, much less why she chose to be so inscrutably mysterious to people who should have been natural allies.)

No, it is nothing new to Trek and this one is no more (and no less) offensive than any other. Mileage will vary on this point, but I find individuals objecting to specific magic tech rather odd, to say the least.

Again, I don't think anyone is objecting to magic tech per se. But the time, place, and manner in which magic tech is presented has an awful lot to do with how plausibly it comes across. The past couple of episodes of DSC have fumbled this badly. I can't imagine this is what was originally planned... which means that for the second season in a row, the show is screwing itself over by retooling its story partway through.

...the only thing elevating it to be 'worse' than any of the other stupid shit in franchise history is bias. Sorry.

What sort of "bias" do you imagine is at work here? No one has defended any of the examples of egregiously stupid technobabble from past eras of Trek. On the contrary, @Rahul just upthread pointed out how widely disdained they are.

Or perhaps the whole thing was based off tech from the 31st century that found it's way to the 23rd.

So you're suggesting that in a secret research project based around the idea that history had been altered by future tech (to sum up what Leland said), they used history-altering future tech? That's awfully meta, but I suppose I wouldn't put it past S31. On the other hand, were that the case, you'd really think Leland would've mentioned it along with the rest of the backstory... so I can't imagine it's what the writers had in mind. I really think they just expected viewers to take the explanation at face value, no matter how absurd it was.

 

[Alan Roi]

retooling its story partway through.

Again, I don't see any evidence of this. In retrospect, most people can see where the show was going in season one, so it wasn't a surprise then it took a left turn. Simple because we aren't being spoonfed the entire plot this year as we weren't being spoonfed last year doesn't mean the producers have retooled the story this year in the slightest either.

 

[Search4]

Your even forgot something. There was also the thing she did on Kaminar.

It is all so ridiculous. If it would have been really a time traveller from the far away future using super advanced future technology like they implied at first, I could have live with it. It would have been still stupid, but at least somewhat acceptable. But they went the Section 31 route. Even VOY tech was way too primitive to build something like the red suit. It is a plot device which is able to do everything the writers can think of although it doesn't make any kind of sense in the context of the series and especially not in the context of the whole Star Trek universe.

You’re right, I forgot the planet-wide saving of the Kelpians with an EM pulse - note an EM pulse is what disables the suit later on. Interesting it’s not shielded against that form of attack and it’s not used when Mama is captured or against Leland/Control.

Hey Control - you’re there on the scene - here’s how to defeat your “unacceptable risk” if you need to. Perhaps in the future when she’s alone on a planet and you’re in charge of the galaxy? And while I’m asking questions how did you modify the eye-gizmo to have nanites without a physical body?

Also note that early on the suit didn’t match any known form of life, while later it’s a time traveler with a human. So that was indirection.

I would also note there’s a big difference between saving Michael by telling Spock to do something... classic time travel... versus using a resuscitation beam on a dead person. By the way the atmosphere was still poisonous at the time, although in fairness life support is immediately restored. We’ve never seen such a beam in Trek IIRC.

Oh, and the black suit is always red, so it has chameleon powers as well.

Bring on the Warp 10 lizards.

 

[Alan Roi]

That they had the technology to build an Iron Man 3 suit with the ability to travel anywhere, anywhen via micro wormholes works fine in the context of Discovery as a standalone series based on Trek.
But when you try to make sense of Discovery in the larger Trek universe, it makes an absolute mockery of TOS, Next Gen, DS9 and Voyager (which they already did with the spore drive)

Why don't we have armies of soldiers flying around in non-time travel combat versions of these suits during the Dominion war? Why do bulky, awkward space suits continue to exist in First Contact? All the "Oh, but... [Genesis/tech of the week]" comments don't make this okay, they just emphasise how little TPTB are trying in an era of binge-watching and rewatching, where continuity should mean more than ever.

Its been made clear, like many technologies that cause more harm than good, have been abandoned time and time and time and time again by the Federation as more trouble than they are worth in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY etc.

Its been made pretty clear that the Red Angel techology is a BAD IDEA that is more trouble than its worth.

Not sure how this show demonstrating typical Federation treatment of bad ideas yet again is a mockery of anything, especially continuity.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

So you're suggesting that in a secret research project based around the idea that history had been altered by future tech (to sum up what Leland said), they used history-altering future tech? That's awfully meta, but I suppose I wouldn't put it past S31. On the other hand, were that the case, you'd really think Leland would've mentioned it along with the rest of the backstory... so I can't imagine it's what the writers had in mind. I really think they just expected viewers to take the explanation at face value, no matter how absurd it was.

No I was positing that 31 may have gained the intial technology for the Red Angel suit from a vessel from the future that came back to stop control. It was more an Idea I had based on a plot point from one of the recent TNG novels. The book revolves around the Breen's attempts to capture a crashed ship from the Mirror universe with advanced technology. But I agree, that there is very little chance that they will explain how 31 was able to come up with such advanced tech.

 

[cultcross]

Note: I'm not saying the concept of a being with these powers is inherently ridiculous; Trek is full of beings with powers even more vast. I'm not even saying that concept of a being in a suit with these powers is ridiculous. What I'm saying is that the concept of a suit with these powers being built by Federation scientists in the 2230s is ridiculous, given everything we know about Trek technology from 50+ years of stories

Honestly I don't think we need to even turn to the fifty years of stories for this one. Even self contained within the established universe of Discovery, the suit is wildly out of place. The technology and abilities established over the last two years render the suit magically far advanced by the standards of this show. Now I can accept the idea that intelligence agencies may have access to technology the public and even the mainstream Government don't have, that's true today, but this is like them having an iPhone when everyone else is using smoke signals. It makes the spore drive look like a steam engine. If the end explanation for this suit remains that s31 scientists built it, that should be a game changer for this show in terms of what the characters can do. Even a time travel suit seems a bit much in itself, but with everything else it does, I'm hoping it has been thoroughly enhanced along the way, and is permanently lost in the finale.

 

[Alan Roi]

Honestly I don't think we need to even turn to the fifty years of stories for this one. Even self contained within the established universe of Discovery, the suit is wildly out of place. The technology and abilities established over the last two years render the suit magically far advanced by the standards of this show. Now I can accept the idea that intelligence agencies may have access to technology the public and even the mainstream Government don't have, that's true today, but this is like them having an iPhone when everyone else is using smoke signals. It makes the spore drive look like a steam engine. If the end explanation for this suit remains that s31 scientists built it, that should be a game changer for this show in terms of what the characters can do. Even a time travel suit seems a bit much in itself, but with everything else it does, I'm hoping it has been thoroughly enhanced along the way, and is permanently lost in the finale.

Federation scientist were messing about with super advanced technology and powers in the TOS era that exceeded Federation knowledge. Yes, that was usually alien in origin, but it didn't prevent Federation citizens from making use it again and again to often tragic results.

In this case, we have a Federation scientist mucking around with something she doesn't really comprehend enough not to get screwed over by, in this case 'Time Crystals'.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Its been made clear, like many technologies that cause more harm than good, have been abandoned time and time and time and time again by the Federation as more trouble than they are worth in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY etc.

Its been made pretty clear that the Red Angel techology is a BAD IDEA that is more trouble than its worth.

Not sure how this show demonstrating typical Federation treatment of bad ideas yet again is a mockery of anything, especially continuity.

Yeah, that would definitely stop Janeway reusing the tech to get her crew home

 

[Alan Roi]

Yeah, that would definitely stop Janeway reusing the tech to get her crew home

Maybe rewatch Equinox as one example of Janeway blocking her crew from using readily available technology to get home quickly time and time again because she deemed it a bad idea.

 

[ITDUDE]

FYI: the suit is black, not red.

Black Angel would have completely different meaning

 

[ITDUDE]

Discovery as a standalone series based on Trek

I like this. I'm going to use this.

 

[eschaton]

My guess is that Dr. Burnham was upgrading the suit with different technologies from different time frames. Or perhaps the whole thing was based off tech from the 31st century that found it's way to the 23rd. Perhaps it will be revealed that the tech came from a 31st century starship that crashed in the 23rd century trying to go back in time and defeat control.

Also, where is the future 29th century Starfleet in all this? Surely Mother Burnham would have popped on the time radars or whatever.

Maybe she's actually from the future? That's how she knew how to build the suit. Control is actually her fault, because for some reason she decided to intervene in the timeline and introduced technology too early and ended up destroying her own time. But the suit keeps pulling her back to when she's actually from.