Spoilers The Red Suit

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Search4, Mar 31, 2019.

  1. XCV330

    XCV330 Premium Member

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    Apart from the rescue, somehow, of the peopel to Terralysium, it doesnt look like her suit has been very effective. The whole pogo issue of being rooted to a fixed point and turning yourself into a walking talking Cassandra Complex doesn't bode well for that tech. It's difficult to say how long in her own time she's spent in that suit but assuming its concurrent (for reasons I don't get) with her daughter's life she's been spending a couple of decades bouncing around, gathering a lot of data but so far being unable to use it beyond transporting a group of survivors to a world so far away they can have no real effect on current or future events (solidified by Pike keeping them in their primitive state), messing with Spock's head and saving her daughter a couple of times. (and apparently many more times unsuccessfully)
     
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  2. Attentiveluke

    Attentiveluke Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I can’t wait to see her controlbuster armour...her time gem armour was epic.
     
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  3. ITDUDE

    ITDUDE Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So we have two franchises potentially using time travel to fix things: Star Trek and MCU. Wonder which one will end up using time travel better. I guess we'll find out in the next few weeks :)
     
  4. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Commodore

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    The obvious answer here is Legends of Tomorrow.
     
  5. ITDUDE

    ITDUDE Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What is that? Don't make me google :D
     
  6. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Commodore

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    All praise Beebo! All praise the blue god!
     
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  7. ITDUDE

    ITDUDE Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Why did you make me google? Whyyyyyy? :D


    Lol, I now realize I actually watched some of Season 1, I think. It seems vaguely familiar. Totally blanked out on it. :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
  8. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Commodore

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    Are you saying you haven't always worshipped Beebo? The only way that's possible is if someone changed the timeline...:eek:
     
  9. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Commodore

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    Actually I was wrong. It's this one!

     
  10. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So why is the suit distinctly not red when it's not in use?

    Kor
     
  11. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's been known since 1981 that the Red Suit was delivered to Earth by little green guys.

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Fateor

    Fateor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The red of the suit is caused by redshifting which in turn is caused by the microwormhole.
     
  13. Search4

    Search4 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It’s one of its powers - chameleon - along with being invisible so Mom can watch Burnham graduate.
     
  14. The Mighty Monkey of Mim

    The Mighty Monkey of Mim Commodore Commodore

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    Of course everything specifically depicted in DSC is a retcon of one sort or another, it being a prequel. But that's neither here nor there. Section 31's "covering their tracks" comes directly from DS9 itself. We already knew that to be their modus operandi from our first introduction to them!

    Let's pretend DSC doesn't exist for a moment. (Insert unending stream of 'clever' witticisms here.) Just based on what had been depicted of them before in DS9 and ENT, who could possibly say what antics they might have got up to in between, and how deep their rabbit hole (or wormhole) might really go?

    "Inquisition" (DS9):

    KIRA: We went over Julian's quarters, but we couldn't find any residual transporter signatures, so either they got him off the station some other way, or they have transporter technology that we can't detect.
    BASHIR: Captain, is there any word from Starfleet about Sloan, or Section 31?
    SISKO: There's no record of a Deputy Director Sloan anywhere in Starfleet. And as for Section 31, that's a little more complicated. Starfleet Command doesn't acknowledge its existence, but they don't deny it either. They simply said they'd look into it and get back to me.
    BASHIR: When?
    SISKO: They didn't say.
    KIRA: That sounds like a cover-up to me.
    BASHIR: I can't believe the Federation condones this kind of activity.
    ODO: Personally, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't. Every other great power has a unit like Section 31. The Romulans have the Tal Shiar. The Cardassians had the Obsidian Order.
    BASHIR: But what does that say about us? When push comes to shove, are we willing to sacrifice our principles in order to survive?
    SISKO: I wish I had an answer for you, Doctor.
    KIRA: Maybe we should do some checking, try to track down this Sloan ourselves.
    ODO: That won't be easy. If he's right, and Section 31 has existed since the birth of the Federation, they've learned to cover their tracks very well.

    "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" (DS9):

    BASHIR: Odo's checked all the security logs. There's no indication of how Sloan got aboard, or where he went.
    SISKO: I can't say I'm surprised. From what we've seen of them, Section 31 is very meticulous in covering its tracks. [...] Officially, Starfleet Command has said that they are appalled at the very notion that an organization like Section 31 might exist, and that they plan to get to the bottom of this entire business.
    BASHIR: And unofficially?
    SISKO: They have quietly pushed the investigation aside, which means either they don't take Section 31 seriously, or someone at Starfleet Command is protecting them.

    [...]

    BASHIR: And how long have you worked for Section 31?
    ROSS: I don't.
    BASHIR: Oh? Just a temporary alliance, is it?
    ROSS: Something like that.
    BASHIR: You don't see anything wrong with what happened, do you?
    ROSS: I don't like it. But I've spent the last year-and-a-half of my life ordering young men and young women to die. I like that even less.
    BASHIR: That's a glib answer, and a cheap way to avoid the fact that you've trampled on the very thing that those young men and women are out there dying to protect! Does that not mean anything to you?
    ROSS: Inter arma enim silent leges.
    BASHIR: "In time of war, the law falls silent." Cicero. So is that what we have become? A Twenty-Fourth-Century Rome, driven by nothing other than the certainty that Caesar can do no wrong?
    ROSS: This conversation never happened. You're dismissed.

    "Extreme Measures" (DS9):

    BASHIR: Section 31...I kept thinking just how many people had to have been involved in the conspiracy to infect him with the disease. Computer experts, doctors, security officers, admirals, clerks...in the end, I came up with at least seventy-three people.
    O'BRIEN: For a minute there, I thought you were going to say seventy thousand.
    BASHIR: This organization, this thing that's slithered its way into the heart of the Federation, has to be destroyed.

    "Divergence" (ENT):

    ARCHER: Phlox was kidnapped. Starfleet would never authorize that.
    HARRIS: Reread the Charter, Article 14, Section 31. There are a few lines that make allowances for bending the rules during times of extraordinary threat.
    ARCHER: What threat?
    HARRIS: Take your pick. Earth's got a lot of enemies.

    To be clear, I view it as perfectly valid for anyone to dislike the take on it DSC offers up. But to decry its portrayal on the basis of alleged 'inconsistency' with characterizations so broad and vague and murky, so full of unresolved questions and implications? Not so much.

    Basically? In terms of the overall "broad strokes" of Trekian fundamentals? (And for better or worse, time travel and cloaking devices and holograms and such qualify here just as much as do wormholes and force fields, to my mind.) Perhaps. And if so, why not? It would hardly be so far out of line with the conceptions of preceding production teams as some might suggest...

    As the Writers/Directors' Guide for TNG stated, "the last century or so" leading up to its timeframe was originally envisioned as having "seen a form of technological progress which 24th Century poets call 'Technology Unchained' -- which means that technical improvement has gone beyond developing things which are smaller, or faster, or more powerful, and is very much centered on improving the quality of life" (emphasis in original), and the bridge of the Enterprise-D as a place where "much the same kinds of things happen" as did on Kirk's, merely with "less emphasis on the mechanics..."

    As recounted in an "in conversation" featurette on the Blu-ray release of ENT's first season, Rick Berman and Brannon Braga's sardonic response to their higher-ups' suggestion that instead of making a show about the birth of "the first starship" they should "do the opposite" and "go, like, to the 26th Century or something" was: "So the spandex is a little tighter? The ships will go Warp 14? The phasers are smaller?"

    (Before anyone jumps on me for such an appeal, allow me to stipulate that I entirely agree this comment demonstrated only the limitations of their own imagination as to the potential possibilities on that front. I think even they clearly recognized this of themselves, and hence persisted in pursuing their initial "key" inspiration of exploring "what happened between that muddy world where everybody was living in First Contact...and the world of Kirk and Spock, which was just a couple hundred years later"—and all the more reason to appreciate that they didn't go in the other direction.)

    As relayed by Michael Okuda in various sources, including the Star Trek Chronology, Encyclopedia, and the production Technical Guide distributed to writers and directors of VGR along with its series bible, so far as Gene Roddenberry was concerned, the real reason Our Heroes™ (whom Section 31 have never been depicted as, not yet anyway) don't use cloaking devices (except when they do) wasn't down to power consumption or the Treaty of Algeron or whatever other 'fig leaf' of in-universe minutiae has variously applied, but simply because they "are explorers and scientists" (except when they aren't) who "don't sneak around" (except when they do). Here again, as in the respective cases of many time travel escapades, stories like "The Pegasus" (TNG), "The Search" (DS9), and Insurrection emphasize themselves as exceptions which illustrate the principle by its very contravention: "Although Starfleet has a reasonably good understanding of the technology involved, Federation policy prohibited the use of these devices..."

    Much the same might be held true of any number of other elements that would seem to appear and disappear (hell yes that pun was intended) at the needs/whims/oversights of a given production or plot, as might (in concert or contrast, as case may be) the according Okudaic rationale for "the question of how accurately sensors can detect a cloaked ship" having "different answers at different times": "The reason is that cloaking devices, like present-day stealth aircraft, represent a continually evolving technology whose designers always try to to stay one step ahead of Federation sensor designers. Like any arms race, technical advances on both sides are frequent, but advantages are brief."

    That is hardly new or unique to DSC, though. ENT and ST'09 each took much the same approach, more or less—as did all the other shows and films, when you really get down to it. Call that a tu quoque if you like, but I just see it as continuity, Trek-style.

    Without the "key component" of the time crystal, isn't it essentially just a rather overly glorified thruster suit? If you're asking why we haven't seen more robust 'combat model' EV suits in Trek, it's a fair question. Yet, it seems to me one that would stand irrespective of anything in DSC.

    You mean like the one that in its very first onscreen appearance nearly killed Pike by its malfunction? Given that such surely can't be a wholly unique occurrence, it's not so surprising that they might return to "good old-fashioned" traditional helmets in time. As Scotty says in STIII: "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

    Besides, we might as well ask why we don't see those nifty compact life support belts from TAS—which evidently generate and maintain not only their force field shell, but moreover the atmosphere contained within—anywhere else in Trek. There are numerous other oddities of which we could ask the same, too. (And in many cases, including specifically those of holocoms and tabletop holoprojectors, we'd be left to ask it of TNG and DS9 even if DSC had never come along.) Assuming that 'we didn't see or hear of them, therefore they must not have had them' is a fallacy, particularly when compounded by additional overreach of tacking on the corollary: 'And therefore, they never could have had them at any point in their preceding history.' There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio...

    (Heck, the presumption that there even is such a thing as 'preceding history' in this context might itself be fallacious, for that matter! We might all be out ahead of our skis on that one, here. Perhaps, as the Prophets would tell us: "It is not linear." We'll see what more we may learn in a few hours...)

    Or, as in the case of the above, the inverse: TAS introduced its lifebelts owing to a lack of resources sufficient to have spacesuits drawn on its characters, and subsequent productions were quite content to simply pretend it never happened. The more things change...

    Again, that's fair enough, if one also applies the same to the rest of Trek. It is what it is. (And of course, as ever, it goes without saying that they care rather less about whether you "buy it" than they do that you're buying it!;))

    What I mainly object to is singling out DSC as somehow fundamentally 'beyond the pale' compared to the sense of 'continuity' (technical or otherwise) exercised by its predecessors, or exhibiting some sort of 'disrespect' for them. I just view it as an extension—and not one entirely without defensible logic and precedent—of the same "creative license" to which they would each in turn lay claim, and all legitimately.

    I have little doubt that if, counterfactually speaking, an idea like the Daedalus suit had been pitched to/by previous production teams, and the resources to pull it off had been available to them, there would remain those among their ranks who might have staunchly turned up their noses and held themselves 'above' such a concept on the grounds of 'believability.' (And they might well have had some quite salient points to make as to its potential wider ramifications.) But equally doubtless, there would be yet others who would have felt no such compunction, and perhaps even some who would have thought it a great bit of fun!

    As in the present, the same would have been true of viewers, too. YMMV, indeed.

    -MMoM:D
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
  15. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    The suit is just a little too far into crazy tech to be buried. I mean, the suit can go anywhere in the galaxy (universe), at any time. I'm sure the suit can be lost, but not all the research that likely went into it.
     
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  16. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    Oh, yeah. I forgot the built in cloaking device. Also the ability to scan the entirety of multiple timelines to find out where you need to go.
     
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  17. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Commodore

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    It was already stated that the suit contains tech that has been identified being hundreds of years to advanced to have been created by current Federation Tech.

    Also, there's been no indication by anyone that when the Red Angel was built it was capable of doing anything other than what Harry Mudd's time gizmo was capable of and perhaps not even that. Dr. Burnham after all only set it to go back in time an hour. That is the only thing we see her doing with hit before things go horribly wrong. And the inventor found in practice that her design was fatally flawed in it concept. Not a stretch to imagine that the project was shelved after other scientists did some additional math and decided the concept was more trouble than it was worth. And maybe something leaked out to whoever built Mudd's time loop device. That happens a lot in real life (except for the time travel bit, as far as we know).
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
  18. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I like this description.

    To me, it's like the Doctor's mobile emitter, a result of 20th century fiddling with 26th century tech. If such tech could be developed by Chronowerx then why didn't it continue on, even after the loss of the Aeon? I don't think they wiped his brain. And yet the mobile emitter remained, even though I would expect the Time Cops to retrieve it.

    Time travel is weird.
     
  19. JasonJ

    JasonJ Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet (probably), but didn't search through hundreds of pages of comments to find out..

    One thing I noticed having just finished episode 10, recall where it was said by Leland that Mom Burnham had theorized that across many civilizations, large leaps in technology were the result of interference by time travelers.

    Also note that Star Trek Discovery seems to have hugely out of proportion advancements in technology. Also, we never in the all of the episodes/movies before Disco have heard of or in any way know about Spock's human foster sister, Michael Burnham.

    My theory (that may be shared by others already): At some point we will see either Michael, or Mom Burnham- or someone - use time travel to "fix" the timeline and series of events... making it such that none of what we have seen on screen thus far, ever happens. More specifically, Michael will continue to be raised by her parents, who will not be either killed nor displaced by time. Therefore, Spock never will have a foster sister. Also, Micheal's life will be much different and she will not be in the place to start the Klingon/Federation war of season 1. She may not even be a Federation officer at all.

    In addition, the removal of the interference event from Discovery's past (the show, not the ship), whatever or whenever that was, results in the huge leap forward in technology that we see in the show, not existing. Instead, the level of technology as seen in TOS is now prevalent.

    Result: All the weird anachronisms and idiosyncrasies of Star Trek Discovery are removed and thus our "Big Reset Button" has been pressed.

    What they do with the show from there, I don't know.. move it into the 26th, 28th, 29th century perhaps? Maybe the keep the setting right where it is in the mid 23rd century... but that's what I think will be done to resolve all of this high technology, warp shuttles, holo-communicators, and Michael Who Burnham stuff.
     
  20. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    Fighting Skynet in an altered 28th century.
     
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