For the record, while Ferdinand Magellan didn't make it home alive, his fellow Spaniards did end up ruling The Philippines for over 300 years.
The rape of space...
- Thread starter RobertScorpio
- Start date
RobertScorpio
Pariah
And what about those poor AZTEKS? The Spaniards pretty much wiped them out...a bad thing, and I think it was terrible and all that. But I'm just saying that man kind very seldom, if ever, comes in peace for too long...
And by the way..the AZTEKS were some pretty brutal people too...not just relgated to the west...
Rob
Emphasis Mine
Funny that you only quote one sentence from my post to "prove" your point. Once again, you're argument is lacking in context. I wasn't offering it as solid evidence, empirical or otherwise.
Here is the salient part:
Currently, you are correct, there is no way to prove this. I was speculating that if there is other sapient life, we will not be the conquerors as you mention upthread ("take by force from other life"). My next sentence was furthering that speculation with "will it be violent" and in my mind, it will no doubt be.
Isn't this why you started this thread to speculate?
However, it is apparent that you merely started this thread, as with so many of your other threads, only to showcase and legitimize your narrow views on a particular subject with nothing more than generalized statements as proof to your claims.
I do admit to using a singular, specific incident to make a point.
I am Filipino-American and aware of that. Philippines comes from King Philip of Spain. Moreover, once the Spanish were kicked out with the assistance of the US, the Filipinos went to war with America only to be further conquered by them after a fashion.
And the Filipino's themselves were also brutal in many ways -- turning in and selling out there own. Emilo Aguinaldo and Andres Bonifacio for example. There is still violence in the nation over land to this day. The Moro-Islamic Liberation Front fighting for Mindanao.
So, yes, there is one correct point being made -- violence isn't just isolated to western culture. However, the point of view being taken by RobertScorpio is still very Anglo-Saxon imperialistic, imo.
Funny that you only quote one sentence from my post to "prove" your point. Once again, you're argument is lacking in context. I wasn't offering it as solid evidence, empirical or otherwise.
Here is the salient part:
Currently, you are correct, there is no way to prove this. I was speculating that if there is other sapient life, we will not be the conquerors as you mention upthread ("take by force from other life"). My next sentence was furthering that speculation with "will it be violent" and in my mind, it will no doubt be.
Isn't this why you started this thread to speculate?
However, it is apparent that you merely started this thread, as with so many of your other threads, only to showcase and legitimize your narrow views on a particular subject with nothing more than generalized statements as proof to your claims.
I do admit to using a singular, specific incident to make a point.
I am Filipino-American and aware of that. Philippines comes from King Philip of Spain. Moreover, once the Spanish were kicked out with the assistance of the US, the Filipinos went to war with America only to be further conquered by them after a fashion.
And the Filipino's themselves were also brutal in many ways -- turning in and selling out there own. Emilo Aguinaldo and Andres Bonifacio for example. There is still violence in the nation over land to this day. The Moro-Islamic Liberation Front fighting for Mindanao.
So, yes, there is one correct point being made -- violence isn't just isolated to western culture. However, the point of view being taken by RobertScorpio is still very Anglo-Saxon imperialistic, imo.
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RobertScorpio
Pariah
All I am saying is very simple; ALL man kind has been doing this. As I recalll, Khan came west...The Crusades went both ways...and those people in Tibet don't really like the Chinese do they??? My point? Mankind has been killing each other from day one..and will kill each other until the end of time.
To keep saying that one segment (whites/western world) only does this is a bit elitist at best, and really has no hold in reality...thats all I'm saying...
Rob
RobertScorpio
Pariah
Well...what I am I saying that you don't agree with...I'm just stating the history of humanity killing each other an raping the land in the process...whats 'imperlistic' about that??
Rob
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Without 'raping' for resources we'd never have developed and never have gained new technologies. Even if we spread out into the cosmos and raped the resources of other planets there just isn't enough time for Humanity to do that to the entire universe. The universe will have long since faded into nothingness before we've probably even raped our own galaxy.
As we spread out and colonise there will undoubtedly be conflict amongst Humans, as colonies expand and grow so too will those colony's individuality and thus will arise new 'civilisations' who will inevitably compete for resources.
As we spread out and colonise there will undoubtedly be conflict amongst Humans, as colonies expand and grow so too will those colony's individuality and thus will arise new 'civilisations' who will inevitably compete for resources.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
Yep, I totally agree. But somehow believing in that kind of future makes you a product of 'anglo/saxon' points of view which, if you didn't get the memo, is totally a bad thing. And yet I go to China, which I have twice in the past year, and I see industrialization on a massive scale. I go to India, same thing...Japan...Germany...we are all raping this world and have been raping this world.
I see us all as one people...one world. I don't segment one group to this side and another to this side. We're all the same and we are all doing the same things...and the kicker? Its always been that way no matter what they say...
Rob
Here is where you've stated an imperialistic view point, imo:
"We will exploit as we go and take by force from either each other, or other 'life.'"
But that statement, to me, comes from a westernized sense of Manifest Destiny. Then if that was not what you meant then it was unclear by that statement or some of your other statements, which were much more generalized than the first two I quoted.
Moreover, I further stated that I agree with your point that violence is not solely the purview of the west. I even used my own ethnic culture to point out how it too can be brutal and violent.
Here:
As do I. We are one race -- the human race with a variety of ethnic cultures. Unfortunately, we've made race and culture almost synonymous with one another over time.
Moreover, I find it arrogant to assume that we will be the masters of space if another lifeform exists, which I feel steams from an Anglo-Saxon and westernized imperialistic viewpoint. Now I don't have a problem with Anglo-Saxon culture. There's nothing wrong with it. Along with being Filipino, I also have Irish (not exactly Anglo-Saxon, but there ya go) blood and an Irish last name. The problem I have is with this idea with the IMPERIALISTIC VIEWPOINT that seemed to be part of your earlier argument -- let us go out and "take by force," as you put it, from each other and other, once again your words, "life."
I, perhaps in a rush, overused and overemphasized the Anglo-Saxon part of my argument; for that I admit to my failings. Imperialism has also been seen in ancient cultures, eastern cultures (Khan, as you point out). Of course, for my argument I should've used the "Age of Imperialism" of the European states, which is fresher in my consciousness; it also includes, in the early 20th Century, the Japanese. Although one can make the case that Japan apporiated Imperialism due to their contact with the west.
I also should've mentioned the ancient empires of yore -- The Ottomans, The Assyrians, et cetera. Take your pick.
And you are right, we are plundering the world's resources at a vastly accelerated rate. The US, Japan, Germany, China, the Middle East, all over. We are running out.
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We've got people having a problem with the use of the word "rape" here. While I don't want to censor the discussion, and I don't want us to get into TNZ territory (which we're skirting in this, it should be noted), out of interest in keeping the discussion open to as many as possible, may I suggest a couple of alternatives to the phrasing? "Plunder" is a good alternative. I was going to suggest "pillage", myself, but either works.
Personally, I don't think this subject can be addressed with anything other than "it depends."
The odds of us being the more advanced race when we encounter other spacefaring life in the universe are odds I wouldn't take on a cheap bet. We're working from a very narrow assumption that any other spacefaring race would have a technological development curve at or near ours, and that seems to be what we're focussed on in our searches. That's just putting blinders on, IMO. Just because we haven't heard a true "Wow!" signal yet doesn't mean we're ever going to and doesn't mean we won't, either. It also doesn't rule out the possibility that we missed it and we're the ones who are behind. What it suggests (at least to me) is that any other life out there is on a different development curve than we are.
So, basically, what we do with another spacefaring race is going to entirely depend upon what we find when we encounter them. Yes, humanity has a track record of basically grabbing as much land as they can and holding on to it tooth and claw. What if the race we encounter is even more aggressive than we've proven ourselves to be? What if they're more passive? So much depends on the circumstances of the situation that it's hard for me to come down on any specific side.
As long as other lifeforms aren't involved, though? Yeah, I highly suspect that the main impetus for exploring and colonizing the solar system in the future will be how much money can be made when we get there. The human race's track record of takeover and exploitation of natural resources is just frighteningly well-established.
Personally, I don't think this subject can be addressed with anything other than "it depends."
The odds of us being the more advanced race when we encounter other spacefaring life in the universe are odds I wouldn't take on a cheap bet. We're working from a very narrow assumption that any other spacefaring race would have a technological development curve at or near ours, and that seems to be what we're focussed on in our searches. That's just putting blinders on, IMO. Just because we haven't heard a true "Wow!" signal yet doesn't mean we're ever going to and doesn't mean we won't, either. It also doesn't rule out the possibility that we missed it and we're the ones who are behind. What it suggests (at least to me) is that any other life out there is on a different development curve than we are.
So, basically, what we do with another spacefaring race is going to entirely depend upon what we find when we encounter them. Yes, humanity has a track record of basically grabbing as much land as they can and holding on to it tooth and claw. What if the race we encounter is even more aggressive than we've proven ourselves to be? What if they're more passive? So much depends on the circumstances of the situation that it's hard for me to come down on any specific side.
As long as other lifeforms aren't involved, though? Yeah, I highly suspect that the main impetus for exploring and colonizing the solar system in the future will be how much money can be made when we get there. The human race's track record of takeover and exploitation of natural resources is just frighteningly well-established.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
LINK
Just giving my opinion. Let's move on with the discussion.
Whilst I have no problem with your order to stop using the word rape and I will follow that order and i'm sure everyone else will, I just want to point out that I find it a little silly since the word rape in the English language for several century's has had more than one meaning and will continue to do so. Just because one of it's meanings can be applied to forcing oneself on another person there's absolutely no reason why it should be censored or considered TNZ worthy.
Just giving my opinion. Let's move on with the discussion.
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However, century never takes an apostrophe for the plural centuries. Similarly, the possessive its does not take an apostrophe at any time.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Thanks.
I'm not ordering anything Tachyon, I'm sorry if it came across that way. I said I never intended to censor the discussion. I'm just trying to make sure as many people are comfortable with the topic at hand as possible.
I know that's exactly what the word can mean. I'm merely suggesting options so that people who might be put off by the use of the word "rape" can still participate in the discussion without having anything bad triggered for them. (Friend of mine is a vocal rape crisis counselor and survivor of rape, so I'm just trying to smooth the path for people like her who may be reading to not feel like they're not wanted as part of the discussion.) I'm not trying to censor anything, just suggesting alternatives that may make people feel less uncomfortable with the discussion, because it's a very valid one for this forum and one that we really should keep in mind going forward.
I know that's exactly what the word can mean. I'm merely suggesting options so that people who might be put off by the use of the word "rape" can still participate in the discussion without having anything bad triggered for them. (Friend of mine is a vocal rape crisis counselor and survivor of rape, so I'm just trying to smooth the path for people like her who may be reading to not feel like they're not wanted as part of the discussion.) I'm not trying to censor anything, just suggesting alternatives that may make people feel less uncomfortable with the discussion, because it's a very valid one for this forum and one that we really should keep in mind going forward.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
ok
I think it depends on which series of Star Trek. Enterprise and TOS had no choice but to come peacefully for they were not equipped to necessarily be warships, but ships of exploration. They feared being outnumbered and technologically outwitted. If they would have encountered Klingons and Andorians as a military operation, I don't believe there would have been any, "We come in peace," i.e., we are not prepared to fight statements in disguise. I know that intro mission statement makes them sound friendly, but that's the tactic used by countries who employ imperialization and colonization of others "We come in peace with medical supplies, rare textiles and stones to trade, and Christianity for you," then you are sized-up for the big take.
TNG, VOY, DS9, really - were they out there for exploration? I think to spread Federation control over the universe. Picard and Sisko did not work for a government that was all that noble as seen in some episodes. Remember when the Federation tried to relocate that colony to exploit the planet's resources in Insurrection? The Federation was the enemy. Star Trek only shows us how as individuals we can make better choices on Earth or in space but it will come down to us individuals and not a government.
Question is when will we have the propulsion technology to ever get that far out into the game? When first contact is completed how long will the gap be between government and public awareness? Are other civilization using a prime directive to not interfere with our development right now?
Depending how one feels about the topic, rape can be the perfect word to express an idea precisely because of the baggage it carries.
However, I am not one to think that mining a bunch of free floating asteroids and rocks down to nothing is rape. Really, what harm is being done? I think the term would be more appropriately used if we found a planet with life, even fairly basic life and then used it and discarded it as a wasteland. In such a case would would clearly be raping the planet of its future potential, and doing so for such a short term gain.
Sure there is. It's simple: there is no other form of complex life in the solar system other than us right here on Earth. Therefore, there are no other "primitives" to be slaughtered and have their resources stolen: in this particular case, you can prove the negative.
As for other solar systems and other galaxies, that's another matter. Fortunately this is unlikely to happen any time in the next ten centuries, and by then the factors in the discussion will be very, very different.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
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