The prequel trilogy constructive criticism thread

[Set Harth]

And, when push met shove, they put protecting those men and their power over the greater good.

Not at all. They were trying to protect the Republic, not "evil men". They knew for a fact that the Sith were backing the Separatists. That means fighting the Separatists equates to opposing the Sith. They assumed that winning the war was the way to promote the common good ( see American history ). They just didn't know the head of the Republic government was a Sith ( or evil ). In essence, they're being faulted for a lack of godlike omniscience.

International Laws apply to all member nations.

The U.N. has one of those too.

And its recommendations/resolutions/whatever are not binding, so it's not really the same thing.

Padme says the invasion of Naboo was against Republic law, but never says that Republic laws apply to all members equally.

Well, how do they apply? Unequally?

 

[fireproof78]

You thought that made things explicit? I found it incredibly vague, and not at all in line with what we were seeing on screen. Nor does it help that in the original trilogy we were led to believe the Empire led to "dark times", indicating that the time of the Republic was the opposite. So if the Republic was the opposite of the Empire, why do we see it behaving in a similar manner? It also doesn't exactly give our heroes in the original films something worth fighting for.

I agree. That is one facet of the PT that really missed the mark. The idea that the Rebels are trying to Restore the Republic doesn't carry as much weight if the Republic is shown as ineffective, petty and corrupt. That doesn't inspire me to want to see that system of government restored. Perhaps both need to be destroyed in order to free the galaxy from under both forms of government.

 

[Mr Light]

Hey man, anything's better than the Empire

 

[Nightowl1701]

You thought that made things explicit? I found it incredibly vague, and not at all in line with what we were seeing on screen. Nor does it help that in the original trilogy we were led to believe the Empire led to "dark times", indicating that the time of the Republic was the opposite. So if the Republic was the opposite of the Empire, why do we see it behaving in a similar manner? It also doesn't exactly give our heroes in the original films something worth fighting for.

Explicit in terms of Lucas telling his audience "This trilogy is NOT a tale of simple good vs. evil." There are many 'points of view' here, and multiple layers of complexity. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and so forth. Part of making Anakin's turn to the Dark Side understandable is showing how he comes to see the Jedi as evil and the Republic as irreparable - hence both need to be destroyed. In his eyes, after his mother's death there is NO good in the galaxy except Obi-Wan and Padme (and, in TCW, Ahsoka), and events conspire to turn him against even them.

Also, by plot necessity we're seeing the Republic on its last legs in this trilogy. The Coruscant scenes of TPM were as close as Lucas could come to showing us onscreen the Republic's already long-gone Golden Age. You should interpret Obi-Wan's words in ANH as meaning "The dark times that led to the Empire."

Not at all. They were trying to protect the Republic, not "evil men". They knew for a fact that the Sith were backing the Separatists. That means fighting the Separatists equates to opposing the Sith. They assumed that winning the war was the way to promote the common good ( see American history ). They just didn't know the head of the Republic government was a Sith ( or evil ). In essence, they're being faulted for a lack of godlike omniscience.

They knew the Sith were leading the Separatists, but they damn sure didn't tell anyone else that. (After a thousand years of the Sith being 'extinct', who would believe them?) They saw themselves as protecting the Republic. But what did the citizens of the Republic see? There's only a few thousand Jedi to go around in the entire galaxy (so the vast majority of people never see one at all, hence their 'myth' status), and they work at the behest of the Senators, most of whom clearly don't necessarily have the best interests of the galaxy in mind. In the POV of the general public, the Jedi are bought and owned attack dogs of the Senate - who eventually go rabid (particularly the one Jedi who went out and started the Separatist movement that led to the Clone Wars that set the whole galaxy aflame), bite the hand that feeds them (think CIA trying to assassinate the President) and have to be put down.

As for 'godlike omniscience,' the whole point of one Mace/Yoda scene in AOTC was the Jedi themselves thought they had that (and openly gave the Senate and the public that impression) and now were realizing they didn't.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

And its recommendations/resolutions/whatever are not binding, so it's not really the same thing.

Not exactly the same, but the response to a member nation violating international or humanitarian law would be similar to a state violating U.S. Federal law. Members would be coerced through economic means, and if necessarily militarily.

Well, how do they apply? Unequally?

I never said they didn't apply equally. My point was it was never made clear either way.

Explicit in terms of Lucas telling his audience "This trilogy is NOT a tale of simple good vs. evil." There are many 'points of view' here, and multiple layers of complexity.

Which is kind of a confusing thing to throw out in the sixth, and planned final film in a series about Good vs. Evil. Especially since there was nothing in the actual film showing a layer of complexity.

 

[Set Harth]

That doesn't inspire me to want to see that system of government restored. Perhaps both need to be destroyed in order to free the galaxy from under both forms of government.

Yay false equivalences!!!

Seriously, if you can't see any difference between the practices of the Republic and the Empire respectively, I don't know what to tell you.

While we're going down the "I don't want to be with either one of you" road, perhaps both the Jedi and Sith needed to be destroyed too! Why settle for a lesser of two evils when one can have perfection?

As for 'godlike omniscience,' the whole point of one Mace/Yoda scene in AOTC was the Jedi themselves thought they had that (and openly gave the Senate and the public that impression) and now were realizing they didn't.

While the whole point of my use of the phrase was that they didn't. Thus they were not, in fact, knowingly serving evil men for a corrupt purpose as was implied.

But what did the citizens of the Republic see?

...Who cares? Consider the perceptions of many of the citizens of a certain real-world republic. How often do those perceptions resemble reality?

In the POV of the general public, the Jedi are bought and owned attack dogs of the Senate - who eventually go rabid (particularly the one Jedi who went out and started the Separatist movement that led to the Clone Wars that set the whole galaxy aflame), bite the hand that feeds them (think CIA trying to assassinate the President) and have to be put down.

Which is of course precisely what the reigning Sith wants the gullible public to think, so that they'll go along with the Empire. And as demonstrated by ROTS it isn't the reality of the situation. First you acted as if you were talking about the actual truth of the situation, now you're just talking about what average citizen Joe Dipshit thinks.

 

[Shawnster]

I started a similar topic a while ago that didn't get any traction. http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/1994-article-looking-back-to-the-future-of-star-wars.277938/ In 1994 Starlog ran an article about the future prequels based upon the clues dropped in the movies and novelizations for Episodes IV-VI. Here is a link to the entire article. http://starwarz.com/starkiller/looking-back-to-the-future-of-star-wars/

Episode I - The Clone Wars.
Obi Wan Kenobi (possibly a template for clones or O.B.-1 is the designation of the initial clone), a brash, somewhat cocky risk taking young Jedi (Was I any different when you taught me?) faces his first challenge as a rising soldier in service to Bail Organa and Alderran, eventually he'll reach the rank of general (Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars). Under this young general's command is a hot pilot named Anakin Skywalker. Perhaps Anakin starts out as a navigator on a spice freighter before following Obi Wan off on some damn fool idealistic crusade. Meanwhile, Senator Palpatine begins a plan to use the crisis of the Clone Wars to secure for himself the presidency of the Republic. Through subterfuge and manipulation, Palpatine arranges for the attack and kidnapping of his chief political rivals Bail Organa, Mon Mothma and Padme Amidala (or Lady Arkady as the article calls her). Kenobi and Skywalker break away from the main conflict we see at the start to rescue Organa, Mothma and Amidala from their Mandiloran abductors (ESB novelization describes Fett's armor as the armor worn by soldiers during the Clone Wars). After a climatic space battle, President-Elect Palpatine awards our heroes for rescuing the important senators. Anakin catches Palpatine's attention and Amidala's eye and a budding romance begins. It is never revealed to our heroes that Palpatine was the evil mastermind.

Episode II - The Seduction of Darth Vader.
Some time has passed since The Clone Wars and the Republic has withered under Palapatine's leadership. Corruption, bribery and terror have reduced the High Council to a devoted few. The Jedi, guardians of peace for 1,000 generations have been supplanted by Palpatine's Sith Lord's and elite guards. The movie opens in the middle of some epic battle being fought by Anakin Skywalker. These ongoing battles, secretly orchestrated by Palpatine, have revealed how under trained and ill-prepared Skywalker was under Kenobi. Skywalker, now married to Padme, is forced to leave her at home and departs on a mission before he can learn that she is pregnant with twins. Lured by the promise of fame and fortune, and forced to rely upon the Dark Side of the Force to compensate for his inadequate training, Skywalker is slowly seduced by Palpatine to the Dark Side. A rift forms between Kenobi and Skywalker over Skywalker's obsession to find the "Kiber Crystal," an object that will cause it's owner to become so powerful with the Force as to be nearly invincible. Kenobi is forced to take one final attempt to save his former apprentice from completely falling away. Their climatic light saber duel finishes the secnd movie with Anakin falling into the molten pit scarring and burning his body and soul.

Episode III - The Fall of the Republic
The evolution of the Galactic Republic into the First Galactic Empire is nearly complete. By means of the Kiber Crystal and with the aid of the Sith Lords, Palpatine heals Anakin Skywalker into the cyborg Darth Vader. Once restored, Palpatine uses Vader to hunt down the Jedi, exterminating them through treachery and deception. Kenobi escapes the purge and hides on Dagobah to consult with Yoda. It is concluded that Amidala and Skywalker's twins, Luke and Leia, must be rescued before they are discovered by Vader and Palpatine. Those children, Kenobi and Yoda know, are the only hope to some day stopping Palpatine and Vader. For their safety, it is decided the twins should be separated. Amidala takes Leia to live under the protection of Bail Organa on Alderran and Luke is taken to be raised by Kenobi's brother, Owen Lars (I don't like the idea of Lars being Kenobi's brother. I'd rather make Beru Anakin's sister. This keeps Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru related and explains the different last name. Besides, if Kenobi is a clone, he wouldn't have a brother).

Additional idea is that Tarkin should be introduced earlier. Perhaps he's another soldier under Kenobi's command in Episode I. Tarkin would be an important secondary character in all three episodes, developing a friendship with Anakin with both rising in the ranks - Tarkin officially through the military and Anakin personally by the side of Palpatine.

The special effects and over-use of CGI detracted some from the prequel's that were made. The best example is the opening of Episode III, RotS, where it seems like as many FX elements were thrown into that opening battle that could be fit with no rhyme, reason or even artistry. Plus, it seemed like we had to see newer and newer looking space craft. These episodes would have been great places to introduce bright, shiny new looking X-Wing and Y-Wing fighters in their glory, before we see them again aged 20 years in Episode IV.

You know, it's called "The Clone Wars." Obviously clones were involved somehow. Were they soldiers? Were they the enemy? Was the armor Boba Fett wore the armor of the clone soldiers? Did Kenobi and the Republic fight on the side of the clones to preserve the technolgy? Luke received a mechanical hand, not a cloned hand. Was cloning outlawed after the Clone Wars? Was cloning always illegal and that was the cause of the Clone Wars?

Someone else wrote a nice fan-script for Episode III after the release of AotC. This script featured Tarkin as a loyal soldier of the Republic and featured the Death Star laser as an operating weapon that caused the lava flows that burned Anakin.
http://starwarz.com/starkiller/the-republic-falls/

 

[fireproof78]

Yay false equivalences!!!

Seriously, if you can't see any difference between the practices of the Republic and the Empire respectively, I don't know what to tell you.

While we're going down the "I don't want to be with either one of you" road, perhaps both the Jedi and Sith needed to be destroyed too! Why settle for a lesser of two evils when one can have perfection?

First of all, I wasn't making an equivalency. Secondly, my larger point was asking a question about what we could have seen about the Republic. Do I want the Empire? No? But, what is to fill that void? The Republic is not presented in a positive light either, regardless of its good points.

I can see differences, but I'm asking what are there larger impact in the PT? The Empire is bad-we are told that from the beginning. However, and please feel free to correct me on this, the Republic is not stated as good. So, I'm looking at the evidence presented in the film for how good the Republic is.

As I have stated before, I know the differences for myself. I like hearing other people's points of view.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

I started a similar topic a while ago that didn't get any traction. http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/1994-article-looking-back-to-the-future-of-star-wars.277938/ In 1994 Starlog ran an article about the future prequels based upon the clues dropped in the movies and novelizations for Episodes IV-VI. Here is a link to the entire article. http://starwarz.com/starkiller/looking-back-to-the-future-of-star-wars/
/

I remember that article! Looking back, I can see why they thought it would turn out that way given the clues and hints from the OT (which were very sparse), I can see also why Lucas would want to do something unexpected - even if his unexpected decisions (having Anakin be a child) weren't unexpected in a good way.

In the spec script for how we'd do Episode I that I mentioned writing with a friend years ago, we made a few decisions that I think would have surprised people, but didn't necessarily break continuity with the OT, such as:

- Anakin was a cocky pilot character who turns out to be the prince of Alderaan. though he doesn't reveal this until later in the story.
- The Sith Empire, a precurser to the Galactic Empire has existed for centuries, and is at war with the Republic. Not much is known about them at first, and the Jedi are unable to feel the presence of their troops because, as is revealed through the course of the story, they are clones.
- There is no prophecy about one who will bring balance to the Force, but keeping the Force in balance (literally a balance between good and evil) is something the main purpose of the Jedi do by influencing galactic affairs and fighting for good. They operate in secret, and are far more like the Buddhist monks that influenced them than the politicians we see in the prequels.
- R2 is Anakin's father's droid, and is flies with Anakin in the script's initial battle. Anakin is also not the the droid's biggest fan. C3PO works for a crime boss who captures Anakin, Obi-Wan, and a Jedi named Master Seefu (an older female). When the three escape, C3PO is taken along for the ride.
- Yoda is discussed, but never shown. The mother of Luke and Leia is an ally of the Jedi who was captured, Obi-Wan begins his adventure searching for her. She is still missing at the end of the script.

Anyway, there are probably millions of "how I would have done the prequels" stories out there, and it doesn't really matter what the overall outline of the story is, IMO, as long as the stories retain the sense of fun and adventure the originals had. In my script, Anakin was the brash, young character and Obi-Wan a rebellious young Jedi who strike off a friendship and bond immediately. There were hints of what Anakin would become (he is described as being a focus of the Force), but he is never described as dangerous, or doing anything outright evil.

 

[OtherGene]

I wanted to revisit the Prequels over the weekend so I chose II as it's the one I've watched the least and the one I remember enjoying the least too. FWIW I've always enjoyed I and III. Phantom, at the time, was a pure Star Wars moment for me no matter how people remember the film now. It was everywhere and it was like being a kid again. Sith I also think is a great movie, great action, real jeopardy for the characters and plenty of fan service.

So Clones, and reading my own words on I and III I'm at a loss to why I didn't enjoy watching it. I shall start by stating that to my 43 year old eyes the CGI sets, particularly the CGI rooms like Palpatines chambers, looked unrealistic and just plain bad. Not real. Really not real. And I think that adds a disconnect to the acting as I found it distracting.

The acting, well, we all know how bad Christensen is supposed to be but I give him the benefit of the doubt and blame the script and the direction for his performance because at times even acting stalwarts like Mcdiarmid turn in cringeworthy moments and delivery. I feel Christensen has become a bit of a fall guy for the Prequels being perceived as inferior and I wonder if that's a bit unfair.

Much of the action makes no sense, the stuff in the droid factory, for example, I found really dull and uninteresting but the slaughter of the Tusken Raiders I thought played really well and Lucas did a good job of showing how the Trade Federation were slowly being maneuvered out of the driving seat. I thought the final battle was so-so but I was again very aware I was watching CGI Clone troopers shooting at CGI droids against a CGI backdrop and in the end I had that disconnected feeling in a way I never felt watching the CGI battles on Middle Earth.

There were some great characters, though, Lee's Count Dooku absolutely should be remembered as a Star Wars classic but for every cool looking Jango Fett there's a dodgy Dexter. For every convincing Cliegg Lars there's an unbelievable Palpatine giving not-great reasons why Annakin should protect Padme.

Finally, I think Lucas misunderstood the criticism of Jar Jar Binks and so made C3-PO the new Binks. I had forgotten how awfully treated the character was in this movie; lame puns and that awful head-swapping thing. At least with 3-PO being reduced to that awful CGI edition I could somehow persuade myself that this wasn't really that same droid from all those years ago.

So to sum up, there was much to enjoy but the negatives outweighed the positives and for that I'm really sorry.

 

[Mr Light]

I love AOTC. Well, most of it. Anakin/Padme doesn't work and the CGI is way too cartoon-y. But seeing it at the time was so exciting, it felt the movie I'd wanted in TPM but didn't quite get. Adult Anakin. Coruscant speeder chase. Obi Wan vs Jango Fett. The massive Battle of Geonosis. Hundreds of Jedi fighting. Yoda vs Dooku. That was all amazing.

 

[JeffinOakland]

The way Lucas handles the force in the original trilogy is completely different from the way he handles it in the pretrilogy. In the original trilogy, there is something mystical about the force. The Jedi are like Samurai and Shaolin monks and the force is like transcendentalism and buddhism and spoon bending. In the pretrilogy, its just magic.

 

[LJones41]

I really don't see the point in discussing this topic, if the matter of reconstructing the original trilogy or "The Force Awakens" is ignored.

 

[Set Harth]

The way Lucas handles the force in the original trilogy is completely different from the way he handles it in the pretrilogy. In the original trilogy, there is something mystical about the force.

No. It's supposed to be the same Force, no less mystical in the PT. They are consistent.

The Jedi are like Samurai and Shaolin monks and the force is like transcendentalism and buddhism and spoon bending.

"Spoon bending" is fakery. It is a false analogy. The Force abilities displayed by the characters in the OT are preserved in the PT. It is being used to do the same things. Meanwhile, we see the teaching of a doctrine of nonattachment...

 

[JeffinOakland]

The Force is fakery. Moving stuff around with your mind is make believe. The Force is a bunch of pseudo religious nonsense cooked up by Lucas to make his fantasy entertaining.

 

[Set Harth]

Moving stuff around with your mind is make believe.

Only in the real world. In-universe it's real, because it's a make-believe universe. So Force use and real-world trickery are not analogues ( no matter what trilogy you're looking at ).

 

[Kor]

Oh look, this thread is still going.

Within the context of the Star Wars galaxy, "The Force" is something real. For example, when Yoda made Luke's X-Wing float through the air in ESB, it was actually happening, and it was a bigger deal than some spoon-bending illusion. Lightning shooting from the Emperor's fingers was also actually happening by means of "The Force," and not some fakery.

I really don't see the point in discussing this topic, if the matter of reconstructing the original trilogy or "The Force Awakens" is ignored.

What?

Kor

 

[JeffinOakland]

Of course it's real in Star Wars but in real life it's fakery. Made up. Like the spoon bending in the Matrix. The analogy is just fine. Fakery in real life adapted to "look" real in a movie.

 

[Set Harth]

Like the spoon bending in the Matrix. The analogy is just fine.

No, it's only getting worse. Like the real world, the Star Wars universe isn't a virtual reality. Spoon bending in the real world has nothing to do with spoon bending in the Matrix.

 

[JeffinOakland]

The point being it's all a bunch of make believe. Lucas used real world make believe to create his Star Wars make believe. I think you know exactly what I mean and you're just being stubborn because you like the pretrilogy.