The prequel trilogy constructive criticism thread

[fireproof78]

Something I think would have improved the prequels, and in addition to the originals in my opinion would be to extend the rule of the Empire hundreds, perhaps thousands of years into the past. That eliminates the prequels need to show the rise of the Empire and just show the fall of Anakin and the Jedi. It also makes the plight of the Rebels in the originals that more dire, knowing they are going up against a system that has existed for a long, long time, and not one that rose and fell in only a few decades, which is only a blip compared to the scale of the thousands of years the Republic lasted.

Well, that's an interesting idea, which certainly seems to kind of fit what is presented by the original Star Wars. The only thing that kind of works against it is the fact that Obi-Wan remembers the Clone Wars and that the last remnant of the Old Republic, the Senate, was swept away as part of the timeline to the film.

One place I think that the PT succeeded is that it showed the Grand Army of the Republic and its capabilities, giving insight in to what lays the foundation for the Imperial war machine.

That said, I think that having the Empire appear earlier in the PT might be more interesting, and give a better sense of scale of how large the Empire truly is. Which, as much as it's cool to see a huge Senate building, it feels all kind of too big for me to identify with.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Well, that's an interesting idea, which certainly seems to kind of fit what is presented by the original Star Wars. The only thing that kind of works against it is the fact that Obi-Wan remembers the Clone Wars and that the last remnant of the Old Republic, the Senate, was swept away as part of the timeline to the film.

From the first film, Tarkin says this:

The Imperial Senate will no longer
be of any concern to us. I've just
received word that the Emperor has
dissolved the council permanently.
The last remnants of the Old Republic
have been swept away.

Which makes no mention of how long the Empire, or the Imperial Senate has existed. Just that the Emperor has eliminated the senate.

During the exchange between Luke and Obi Wan, he says this:

For over a thousand generations
the Jedi Knights were the guardians
of peace and justice in the Old
Republic. Before the dark times,
before the Empire.

Which doesn't establish when the Empire began, or that Obi Wan remembers what it was like before the Empire.

Regarding the Clone Wars, there was nothing said about when it occurred, that it preceded the Empire, or was what led to the Empire.

LUKE - You fought in the Clone Wars?

BEN - Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father.

And later:

LEIA
General Kenobi, years ago you served
my father in the Clone Wars. Now he
begs you to help him in his struggle
against the Empire.

Which doesn't make it any clearer.
The only other backstory I know if is this line:

BEN
A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who
was a pupil of mine until he turned
to evil, helped the Empire hunt down
and destroy the Jedi Knights. He
betrayed and murdered your father.
Now the Jedi are all but extinct.

Establishes that the Jedi were around during Ben's lifetime, but not that the Jedi were hunted down before the Empire existed. In fact, to fit in with the prequels, Ben should have said something like this:

BEN
A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who
was a pupil of mine until he turned
to evil, helped the Emperor hunt down
and destroy the Jedi Knights.

Since this occurred before the Empire officially existed.

So unless I'm missing something else, there is no reason why the Empire couldn't have been around for a very long time.

 

[Ithekro]

Considering Darth Vader didn't exist until basically the day the Empire was founded, the line still works. After that first day of Order 66 and of course his getting the suit, Darth Vader did help the Empire hunt down the remaining Jedi Knights.

Darth Vader, in the raid on the Temple, was not hunting Jedi, he was attacking their main home, when they didn't know they would be attacked by the Republic. After that, when the Jedi were on the run, than he was hunting them down for the Empire.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, I would like to define what is meant by "a long time." I'll freely admit that I have my assumptions about the Empire, and that I think it was around longer than the 20 years that was portrayed in the PT. But, your quotations also raise a number of questions.

First of all, when were the Clone Wars? How old was Ben when he joined and when he tried to train Anakin? Finally, what was the outcome? We are only guessing the victor.

All of these questions would be interesting to explore, which is one of the reasons why I like some of the EU that explored the Old Republic before the PT. Palpatine's rise to power was similar as it is in the PT, but it definitely has a very long term feeling to it.

Lots of good questions though

 

[Kor]

Well, that's an interesting idea, which certainly seems to kind of fit what is presented by the original Star Wars. The only thing that kind of works against it is the fact that Obi-Wan remembers the Clone Wars and that the last remnant of the Old Republic, the Senate, was swept away as part of the timeline to the film.

Perhaps the Clone Wars could have been depicted as a power struggle between Republic remnants and the Empire, with the Empire winning and forcibly absorbing the Republic holdouts into its realm.

Kor

 

[Ithekro]

The one thing I had assumed was that Anakin was older when he fell. Closer to Obi-wan's age. Partly because we didn't consider age to be part of the Jedi training, partly because Anakin was considered a great pilot when Obi-wan first knew him, and partly because Sebastian Shaw was an old man under that mask. So we expected maybe 5-10 years difference in Obi-wan and Anakin's ages, not 15 years.

However we have a timeline presented to us as soon as we find out about Anakin being Luke's father. He can't have turned all that long before Luke was born. So a rough estimate of 20 years (25 if we took Mark Hamill's age at the time). Not unless Padme was sleeping with the enemy for reasons to aid the Jedi against the Empire.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Perhaps the Clone Wars could have been depicted as a power struggle between Republic remnants and the Empire, with the Empire winning and forcibly absorbing the Republic holdouts into its realm.

Kor

That would have been far more interesting than what we got, and far more epic. I wouldn't call myself a history expert, but I do realize that something as big as a Galactic Empire wouldn't pop up overnight, and disappear once the guy in charge dies. And if it did, it wasn't much of a threat. Most large empires on Earth were never completely defeated or eliminated, but evolved or were absorbed. The shortest lived Empire, Nazi Germany, was only eliminated because it was overwhelmed by pretty much the rest of the planet.

Not that I expect realism from Star Wars.

 

[Ithekro]

The Galactic Empire was basically a rebranded Galactic Republic that absorbed the Confederacy of Independent Systems.

Is was the Roman Empire rebranded as the Roman Republic waned. Only to fall again as rebellion for the days of the Republic pushed on.

 

[Skywalker]

I don't know about having the Empire around for hundreds or even thousands of years, but I think it might have been interesting if the Republic had been reorganized into the Empire in Episode II, with the Jedi reluctantly agreeing to go along with it in the interests of security against the Separatist threat (Palpatine hasn't been outed as a Sith Lord yet at this point). And then Episode III starts off like a decade later with the Clone Wars still raging, with the Emperor spinning things so that the people blame the continuing war on the Jedi.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

with the Jedi reluctantly agreeing to go along with it in the interests of security against the Separatist threat .

Which brings up another failing of the Prequels - The Separatists were not in any way compelling villains. I know they were more secondary villains, but the idea makes it sound as if the Republic is just as bad as the Empire, conquering systems who want to be separated from them by military force. I'm not sure if that is what Lucas was going for, or if he wanted the Separatists to appear to be the aggressive party, but it was never made very clear.

 

[Set Harth]

but the idea makes it sound as if the Republic is just as bad as the Empire, conquering systems who want to be separated from them by military force.

Tell that to Abe Lincoln!

 

[Skywalker]

Which brings up another failing of the Prequels - The Separatists were not in any way compelling villains. I know they were more secondary villains, but the idea makes it sound as if the Republic is just as bad as the Empire, conquering systems who want to be separated from them by military force. I'm not sure if that is what Lucas was going for, or if he wanted the Separatists to appear to be the aggressive party, but it was never made very clear.

I agree with you on that. The implication seems to be that the Separatists no longer felt like the Republic was capable of policing itself or protecting its member worlds (or was even willing to do so) so they decided to secede and go their own way. Which, as you said, kind of makes the Republic look just as bad as the Empire. If Lucas wanted the Jedi to come across as heroes in the Clone Wars, he should have done a better job of making the Separatists actually bad and not just run by bad people.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Tell that to Abe Lincoln!

The difference here is we are talking about a series of planetary systems (not sure how many), and not half of a nation. The Republic appeared to be something more akin to the United Nations than the U.S. Federal government. I say that based on the fact that they have no army, and so each system had to have their own military forces. Each system also had their own governments, and rulers who made decisions without needing the approval of the Republic. So the Republic had no actual power or authority over these systems. Which makes it all the more strange that the Jedi Knights, supposed guardians of peace, would go into battle on sovereign planets with an invading army that didn't exist when these planets were part of the Republic.

 

[Mr Light]

There was no federal military because there were no major wars in a thousand years. Only pirates and smugglers and police actions, which were handled by the local judicials and the Jedi. The Republic encompassed the vast majority of the galaxy; there was no left to fight.

 

[Nightowl1701]

I agree with you on that. The implication seems to be that the Separatists no longer felt like the Republic was capable of policing itself or protecting its member worlds (or was even willing to do so) so they decided to secede and go their own way. Which, as you said, kind of makes the Republic look just as bad as the Empire. If Lucas wanted the Jedi to come across as heroes in the Clone Wars, he should have done a better job of making the Separatists actually bad and not just run by bad people.

The Episode III opening crawl couldn't have made it more explicit: "There are heroes and villains on both sides. Evil is everywhere."

Lucas was throwing the whole impression we (and Luke) had had of the Jedi as heroes (and of their undescribed enemies in the Clone Wars) on its head. They thought they were heroes, maybe the people they saved directly thought they were heroes, but the Jedi were half-knowingly doing the bidding of evil men corrupted by power. And, when push met shove, they put protecting those men and their power over the greater good.

 

[Skywalker]

It's too bad we never actually saw any heroes on the other side.

 

[Ithekro]

Those we saw were murdered by Count Dooku to keep the war going to fulfill Palpatine's plan. Or rebelled against the Separatists to defy the Sith Lord and his corporate lackeys.

 

[Mr Light]

Dooku was a hero for the rank and file of the Seperatists, a noble Jedi taking a stand for the rights of the little guy against the corruption of Big Government. Of course, those less informed don't realize he's a mouth piece for big corporations and the actual corruption he's claiming to be against. Sound familiar?

 

[Set Harth]

The difference here is we are talking about a series of planetary systems (not sure how many), and not half of a nation.

The situations are analogous. "I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two."

The Republic appeared to be something more akin to the United Nations than the U.S. Federal government.

Padme makes it clear in TPM that Republic law applies to all member systems. I don't think that applies to the UN.

So the Republic had no actual power or authority over these systems.

That's quite an exaggeration IMO. Why do they have a Senate?

 

[TremblingBluStar]

The Episode III opening crawl couldn't have made it more explicit: "There are heroes and villains on both sides. Evil is everywhere."

You thought that made things explicit? I found it incredibly vague, and not at all in line with what we were seeing on screen. Nor does it help that in the original trilogy we were led to believe the Empire led to "dark times", indicating that the time of the Republic was the opposite. So if the Republic was the opposite of the Empire, why do we see it behaving in a similar manner? It also doesn't exactly give our heroes in the original films something worth fighting for.

The situations are analogous. "I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two."

Technically, any split, no matter the size, is a "split in two".

Padme makes it clear in TPM that Republic law applies to all member systems. I don't think that applies to the UN.

In the U.N., International Laws apply to all member nations. Padme says the invasion of Naboo was against Republic law, but never says that Republic laws apply to all members equally. How would such laws be enforced? By the Jedi?

That's quite an exaggeration IMO. Why do they have a Senate?

The U.N. has one of those too.