Many people don't relate to him. Then again, not many people have been in the kind of situation he found himself in.
The prequel trilogy constructive criticism thread
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Many people don't relate to him. Then again, not many people have been in the kind of situation he found himself in.
But, that's the thing. I may not have been in the exact situation as many fictional characters, but I at least find something that I can relate to. Luke wants adventure, Rey wants a family, among other character motivations.
I think my bigger problem is how Anakin is portrayed in the OT, and then he isn't that sympathetic. It might be the acting, it might be the writing, but I just don't connect with him on any level, aside from the awkward romance. That's frustrating to me as an audience member.
Also, as I have stated previously, the Jedi don't feel like they have anything to offer Anakin. so the good guys just look dumb. The fall of the Republic happens because of the Jedi, and they are to be blamed. They are supposed to be the good guys, and they don't behave like it.
This is the reason so many people hate the prequels: because they failed to emotionally connect with the audience.
Now, of course I'm not speaking for the entire audience, but people who dislike these films mostly have this complaint over all the others.
Killing a tribe of primitives killed a loved one, an action the movie treats as not that big of a deal, is hardly comparable to becoming Space Hitler on the remote chance that something he had a dream about won't happen. I guess it would sort of make sense if Padme had a condition that meant giving birth would kill her, and she was unwilling to end the pregnancy. Having the whole thing be the result of a dream is silly.
Not as extreme as becoming Space Hitler.
We will just have to agree to disagree. I find nothing in Episode III nicely set up.
I don't see it that way. Saving Luke at the end of RotJ was not a sudden choice, but a confirmation that there was good in him, and he was struggling with his actions.
You have a different definition of "family drama" than I. In a family drama, the main conflict driving the story is one between family members. The main conflict in Star Wars is Rebels vs. Empire, and Jedi vs. Sith. I suppose you could argue it is Luke vs. Anakin, but that is a stretch given Luke doesn't even know Anakin is alive until nearly the end of the second film in a trilogy, and Luke and Vader are never portrayed as being in a family.
To get back on topic, I think it would work better if people in-universe didn't claim Anakin was "a good person" but acknowledged that he was flawed and at risk to go Dark Side due to his lack of emotional stability. It would make everything more cohesive, in any case - imho.
Uh, what? The "fall" of the Republic happens because of the Sith. The Jedi merely fail to prevent it from happening, though they do try. You're blaming the victim.
TremblingBluStar said:
It was still sudden. We could describe what happens in ROTS in a fashion similar to the above. His turn to the dark side and his return parallel one another in this respect.
The Jedi are the "victim?" I thought the Republic was more of the victim, from my estimation.
Perhaps my problem with the Jedi is similar to my one with Anakin. They don't feel very sympathetic, or that they have a positive goal to work towards, other than to prevent the bad guys from winning. What is gained by the Jedi succeeding? What are their strengths that I should applaud? They don't feel heroic to me, and I don't sympathize with their plight.
If I felt like the Jedi had a chance to succeed, or were active in trying to prevent the Sith's return, then I might sympathize. But, they play in to Palpatine's hands with little awareness until after the fact.
It might be realistic, and tragic, in some ways, but that doesn't make me sympathetic.
Well, the Jedi did get killed, while the Republic applauded what was done to them, for whatever that's worth. But debating who's more of a victim is all well and good, it's still the Sith who are to blame for everything.
Oy vey. Are you serious?
They were active in trying to prevent the Sith's return. This was a through-line in the trilogy. What would you have had them do?
Yes, they failed to be omniscient - a fairly common affliction among mortals.
And the Jedi are not complicit through inaction?
I'm asking a question. You can debate the merits of its seriousness or not.
How are they active? By employing a Clone Army that was solicited under false pretenses? By not recognizing warning signs of Palpatine (the power of the Dark Side surrounds him, but we can't tell) and Anakin?
They sense some inklings of the Dark Side from both Anakin and Palpatine but do nothing about it.
Maybe that's being mortal, but I don't have to treat them like heroes or want them to win just because they are the heroes. GL introduced moral ambiguity but the longer term implications were not well thought out, in my opinion.
Ryan Gosling as a sociopathic but incredibly charismatic Anakin Skywalker. Prequel trilogy is instantly awesome.
Probably not something that could be done justice as a "family film"
Probably not something that could be done justice as a "family film"
You're selling blame-the-victim mentality as though it makes perfect sense, and you still haven't identified anything specific they could have done.
The answer should be sufficiently obvious, to the point where the question itself seems difficult to take seriously.
How are they active in trying to "prevent the Sith's return"? They spent the period between films looking for Sidious. Any time they find out the location of a Sith, they send Jedi to deal with the situation. We see them move against Sith in every film. They just don't have a crystal ball telling them where to go to find the next Sith. But they were beaten, so that means they were by definition "inactive". It's a fallacious all-or-nothing construction allowing no middle ground between winning and not even trying.
They're affiliated with the Republic government, and as far as they know the army was solicited by one of their own ( TCW: The Lost One ). Should the Republic leadership simply sit back and let the Republic be split in two? If not, should the Jedi not support the Republic? Knowing that Dooku is a Sith, how would they be expected to construe the choice to not oppose Dooku's forces as helping to prevent the Sith's return?
So they don't recognize warning signs... but they do? They can tell the dark side ( not explicitly the power of the dark side ) surrounds Palpatine... but they can't? Doesn't the dark side likely surround a lot of people who aren't Sith? How long have they sensed the dark side around Palpatine? As soon as they first mention this they are already planning to act on it. And what are they supposed to do to Anakin, besides kicking him out ( something they'd be somewhat reluctant to do given the prophecy )? They deny Anakin Master status and order him to stay behind when confronting Palpatine.
There's presumably a whole different rationale for wanting them to win, one which doesn't require you liking them at all.
First of all, I'm discussing the films themselves, without any of TCW or the novelizations for information. I have far more sympathy for the Jedi as they are presented in the novels and the series than I do from the films themselves.
As I stated before, I don't have a problem with the gaps filled in by TCW or the novels. But, if that information is so critical that I need to watch it in order to understand a movie, then the movie was not done very well.
Again, TCW references don't help me here. I haven't seen them.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm not going to treat this like it is obvious. It isn't to me, beyond "Jedi=good and Sith=bad" and I should want the Jedi to win. But, the Jedi don't do their job very well, in my opinion, and the reasons are not clear in the PT. I don't mind filling in plot holes but I think that the PT could have made better use of TCW material to illustrate the threat of the Sith and the actions of the Jedi then that material should have been in the films.
I love Obi-Wan in the novels. His discussions with Windu and Yoda about Anakin are great, and the doubts that are felt are interesting. It makes the Jedi feel like people. Sorry, they don't in the PT.
Investigate Palpatine further. They keep saying they don't trust him, but they don't do anything to actually limit his influence.
Enlighten me.
Again, I'm working within the context of the films. This is the PT criticism thread, so I work from that framework.
As I stated before, I don't have a problem with the gaps filled in by TCW or the novels. But, if that information is so critical that I need to watch it in order to understand a movie, then the movie was not done very well.
Shouldn't the Jedi be shown engaging in diplomacy, since that is one of their functions in the Republic?
Again, TCW references don't help me here. I haven't seen them.
I don't know who the power of the Dark Side resides around. That's the point. In the OT, the cave is strong in the Dark Side and Yoda can sense that. But, in the PT, they can sense the Dark Side around Palpatine but they don't act or investigate. Dooku tells Obi-Wan that the Senate is controlled by the Sith but they don't do anything to investigate.
There probably is, and that's fine. I just wouldn't mind a little more clarity in the film other than "the Jedi are good" and that settles the argument.There's presumably a whole different rationale for wanting them to win, one which doesn't require you liking them at all.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm not going to treat this like it is obvious. It isn't to me, beyond "Jedi=good and Sith=bad" and I should want the Jedi to win. But, the Jedi don't do their job very well, in my opinion, and the reasons are not clear in the PT. I don't mind filling in plot holes but I think that the PT could have made better use of TCW material to illustrate the threat of the Sith and the actions of the Jedi then that material should have been in the films.
I love Obi-Wan in the novels. His discussions with Windu and Yoda about Anakin are great, and the doubts that are felt are interesting. It makes the Jedi feel like people. Sorry, they don't in the PT.
How do you know they didn't? You act as if something not being shown on screen necessarily means that it didn't happen. Also, you're acting as if this would necessarily be a fruitful strategy on their part. That's why I refer to the false dichotomy of winning vs. not even trying. It is possible to try your best and not win. Do you assume that there was damning evidence just lying around and that the Jedi would have discovered everything "if they had only shown some effort"? If so, you assume too much. That approach effectively rewrites Palpatine into a careless type, and I don't think that's how his character is supposed to be.
As far as doing anything to limit his influence, the fact that they are not themselves politicians limits their power in this area. But they do attempt to have Anakin spy on him.
You're not expected to have seen them. I'm giving you the relevant fact from the reference: that during the Clone Wars the Jedi believed that Sifo-Dyas commissioned the army.
It's not that you need supplemental materials to understand a movie, while the question of whether or not a movie was "done well" seems like an entirely different and wholly subjective topic. Sometimes people make assumptions about the films that are not necessarily supported by the films' content. That's why the other material can be helpful. Where external sources are not seen to be in error, they are consistent with the films. If, for example, your understanding of AOTC led you to believe that the Jedi were certain that Sifo-Dyas did not commission the army, then your understanding may have been flawed, because the film depicted no such certainty.
Again, we only hear them say they sense the dark side around Palpatine at a point where they are already discussing a potential temporary takeover of the government. So you're kind of being creative with the timeline here, apparently assuming that they sensed this at an earlier point, when we do not know that for certain. And when Palpatine is revealed as a Sith they act immediately.
More "didn't see it, didn't happen". How do you know they didn't do anything to investigate? In fact, they announce in dialogue their intention to do so, so it is reasonable to assume that they did investigate between the films as implied. Surely it is no more reasonable to assume that they failed to do so simply because the movie ended and the audience was deprived of the ability to visually witness events taking place between II and III. After all, investigation is implied in their mandate!
But perhaps more to the point, what exactly would you expect an investigation of the Senate to produce? Again, Palpatine isn't sketched as the kind of character who leaves loose ends just lying around for anyone to automatically find as long as they just start "investigating". None of the Senators were themselves Sith and they most likely were not in secret deals with any Sith. Palpatine's influence on them was arguably of a relatively mundane political nature, making Dooku's claim highly misleading. We should not forget that Dooku voluntarily divulged this claim to a captive. Which seems more likely - that it was a dangerous slip, a clue with the potential to seriously harm the Sith cause, or that it was a calculated misdirection?
This is a valid point, but I'm not going to assume facts not in evidence. I'm not assuming that they did something, just because I didn't see them do it. I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of effort on the part of the Jedi to counter the Sith, rather than assuming that they did so.That's not a very interesting story, in my opinion. It would be nice to see the Jedi as more active in their fighting, not just reacting to problems.
I'm going with what was stated on screen and my reaction to it. Unless there is a version or line of dialog I missed, I don't recall the Jedi investigating anything and I'm not going to assume that they did. Though, apparently, if they did do it, it amounted to nothing.
Having Anakin spy on him is the same as an investigation? 3 years after the fact? They don't trust Palpatine and they don't trust Anakin so we'll send one to spy on the other.
I'm sorry, it doesn't make sense to me.
So, the Clone Army is accepted with no questions, even though it wasn't sanctioned by the Council? I'm sorry, maybe I'm paranoid or jaded or something, but "unauthorized" shouldn't mean "blind acceptance."
To me, it is a bad decision.
See my above point, that regardless of what the Jedi believe, it would be nice to see some sort of questions being asked about who commissioned the Clone Army, and why the Jedi seem willing to accept that Army, regardless of its origin.
It goes to motive, in my opinion. What motivates the Jedi to utilize the Clone War without any sort of questioning? Why is the war the only way to deal with the Separatists? What does that mean to our heroes, other than the Republic is split? Why is that bad when the Senate can't seem to be effective in leadership in TPM to deal with a single planetary crisis?
They react immediately, and I am not trying to parse words, so much as I am trying to make a point. The Jedi don't act upon facts, they react to events, but they feel, in my opinion, poorly prepared to deal with anything that the Sith throw at them. A quick analogy is in tennis, if you stand flat footed and someone hits a shot, you are unprepared to move and react.
I don't know what the investigation would produce, but it would be more interesting to me if the Jedi appeared to act on the information. Again, facts not in evidence and I'm not going to assume that an investigation happened because the Jedi would normally investigate. Why not show it? Why not show them attempting to unravel the plot against them? Even if they don't figure it all out, at least have them trying. Dooku's information is put out there, is accurate, and the Jedi don't do anything with it. I'm sorry, that might seem like misdirection, but the Jedi brush it off.
Again, it just feels like the Jedi are reacting and are not proactive. There isn't a sense that they are trying to understand the plots against them or that they are active agents in their lives. They feel very passive until the bad guys are right in their face with how evil they are (Yoda vs. Dooku, Mace vs. Palpatine, Yoda vs. Palpatine, Obi-Wan vs. Anakin).
Palpatine always feels like he has the upper hand, and that the Jedi have no chance to defeat him. That's fine, but it would be more interesting if I felt like the Jedi were trying, if it felt like a war of move and countermove by skilled opponents, rather than Palpatine being an NBA superstar against a high school player.
The impression given by the third film is that the Jedi believed that Dooku was the Sith Lord they missed after killing Darth Maul. They might assume he has an apprentice who is controlling the Senate...if they even believe Dooku, which I'm fairly sure Obi-wan did not. The Jedi were sure that if they managed to end the war, they could then focus on the Senate to see if they could find this potential second Sith Lord. But they needed to end the war soon as they could feel something was happening. Just not what or where. One thing is clear though. Palpatine by this point had been granted a lot of power and had stayed in office well over his term limits. The Jedi, as well as the Delegation of the 2000 were hoping to have power return to its state prior to the Separatist Crisis. The Chancellor has just placed the Grand Army of the Republic into his own hands over the Jedi as well as instituting Regional Governors, effectively taking power from the Senate. This was where they lost trust in him and had Anakin act as their spy, knowing he was close to the Chancellor. The Delegation of the 2000 made the mistake of not letting Padme bring the Jedi in on their actions, as that might have been enough to keep Anakin trusting in them. Also the united front comparing notes might have actually gotten close to the truth. They believed Palpatine was being influenced by the hidden Sith Lord, but did not think he was the Sith Lord until Anakin told them. He was that good at hiding in plain sight. Managing to deceive just about everyone for probably two decades or more. While still being able to manipulate things to follow what he had foreseen.
The Clone Wars manages to misdirect the Jedi even more. They didn't find out that Dooku was the Sith Lord named Tyranus until at least the second year of the war if not the third year. This did lead to suspicion over the Clone Army, but by then, not only was it too late, but also the Jedi felt they must finish the war before investigating. Too thinly spread they were due to the war. Secondly with Dooku having Dark Side users like Ventress, Savage, and later the return of Darth Maul, it was assumed Dooku was the main Sith Master and the other were a string of apprentices and lackeys.
Add to this the turn of public opinion against the Jedi over the war and the increase of an officer corps and planetary governors to take over the role of the Jedi in the war (so the "peacekeepers" could return to not being soldiers), the Jedi were basically screwed if they could not find Dooku's elusive master. Near the end, Yoda seems to have gotten some clues at to what was going on, but also that he would not be able to stop it from happening. Saw the route to Luke he did, and was pained to follow it.
The Clone Wars manages to misdirect the Jedi even more. They didn't find out that Dooku was the Sith Lord named Tyranus until at least the second year of the war if not the third year. This did lead to suspicion over the Clone Army, but by then, not only was it too late, but also the Jedi felt they must finish the war before investigating. Too thinly spread they were due to the war. Secondly with Dooku having Dark Side users like Ventress, Savage, and later the return of Darth Maul, it was assumed Dooku was the main Sith Master and the other were a string of apprentices and lackeys.
Add to this the turn of public opinion against the Jedi over the war and the increase of an officer corps and planetary governors to take over the role of the Jedi in the war (so the "peacekeepers" could return to not being soldiers), the Jedi were basically screwed if they could not find Dooku's elusive master. Near the end, Yoda seems to have gotten some clues at to what was going on, but also that he would not be able to stop it from happening. Saw the route to Luke he did, and was pained to follow it.
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See that is great description, and I love the TCW and the novels for bring such information to light. There is so much more conflict and subtext within that show than much of the PT. Thank you, Ithekro for your summary 
So, for me, to make the PT better, work in some of the character development and plot lines from the show. Not all of them, mind you, but it gives us more insight in to the Jedi, who they are, and why their loss is tragic. The PT is supposed to be a tragedy, and I get that. But, honestly, my biggest frustration is I don't know the characters enough to sympathize or care about them. And that's sad. I want to care about them more than just knowing their names for Star Wars trivia.
I know I sound like a PT hater for my long back and forth with Set Hart, but honestly, I just think the PT could be so much more than the films we got. I see so much ancillary material that fills in gaps that are great, but just don't quite make it to the films themselves. After 10 years and having that material it is easier to fill in the gaps, but at the time, when the films came out, there wasn't that information.
tl: dr I don't hate the PT. It just could be more.
So, for me, to make the PT better, work in some of the character development and plot lines from the show. Not all of them, mind you, but it gives us more insight in to the Jedi, who they are, and why their loss is tragic. The PT is supposed to be a tragedy, and I get that. But, honestly, my biggest frustration is I don't know the characters enough to sympathize or care about them. And that's sad. I want to care about them more than just knowing their names for Star Wars trivia.
I know I sound like a PT hater for my long back and forth with Set Hart, but honestly, I just think the PT could be so much more than the films we got. I see so much ancillary material that fills in gaps that are great, but just don't quite make it to the films themselves. After 10 years and having that material it is easier to fill in the gaps, but at the time, when the films came out, there wasn't that information.
tl: dr I don't hate the PT. It just could be more.
The Star Was movies are basically action/adventure movies with very little in the way of character development in them and really not much in the way of time for development of the characters over the action on the screen. And really The Force Awakens is no different, while Rey and Finn get some development, Poe is left with none and we got one action scene after another. Which in the end is fine, I do think that people tend to overthink the Star Wars movies as a whole.
Exactly. I recently binge-watched TCW. I quite enjoyed it, but I felt that much of it was basically meant to fix the gaps and problems with the prequel trilogy, which shouldn't have been necessary in the first place. The movies should stand solidly on their own merit.
Kor
Something I think would have improved the prequels, and in addition to the originals in my opinion would be to extend the rule of the Empire hundreds, perhaps thousands of years into the past. That eliminates the prequels need to show the rise of the Empire and just show the fall of Anakin and the Jedi. It also makes the plight of the Rebels in the originals that more dire, knowing they are going up against a system that has existed for a long, long time, and not one that rose and fell in only a few decades, which is only a blip compared to the scale of the thousands of years the Republic lasted.
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