Spoilers The Power of the Doctor grade and discussion thread

[David cgc]

And that's how the entire run has felt, like Chibnall barely made any kind of conscious effort to connect the Thirteenth with any of the previous Doctors (most of all the Twelfth, as I still believe and will always believe that Chibnall just simply never ever watched that run).

There seems to be a bit of a perspective clash between those who see the Doctor as the same person who looks different, and different people who are born in a weird way and "inherit" the Doctor's lifestyle. It was actually something that bothered me about "The End of Time," and it also comes through, here. I wonder if that might be why Capaldi isn't a fan of multi-Doctor stories, the conceit makes it very, very hard to pull off the "same person who looks different" idea.

It's not impossible, I think Moffat did a good job of it in "Day," but of the three revival showrunners, he also seems to be the one most committed to the idea that the Doctor is always the same person, and the differences are superficial, not fundamental (the end of "Deep Breath" when Capaldi is really arguing that he's still Smith, the flashback in "The Witch's Familiar" where the Doctor slips seamlessly between the First, Fourth, and Twelfth versions, the chapter in his novelization of "Day" where he goes through the Doctor's successive recollections of being all three incarnations in a scene, including, inexplicably, how he never got to be the one to deliver the witty line and it was always his past or future self, the Twelfth Doctor talking to himself-as-the-Fourth-Doctor, his flirtations with multi-Doctor stories that just included one incarnation, and so on). Chibnall seems to be way, way over in the other direction, with every Doctor being a totally new person who's a successor to the old one. RTD, it seems, goes back and forth depending on what elicits the most pathos, with the newly-regenerated Tenth and Fourteenth Doctors being acutely aware that their bodies have just warped themselves, while the pre-regeneration Tenth Doctor was extremely self-pitying about how regeneration "feels like dying" while simultaneously referring to his past, "dead" selves as "I" and his current, alive self as "some new man sauntering off."

(So, yes, I did appreciate Moffat retconning that "I don't want to go," and probably all of his dread, was a subconscious memory of learning his next regeneration was the end of the line, and that it wasn't going to be pretty.)

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Flux was a bit of a big mess too. I agree with others here. Eve Of The Daleks was the best of this lot.

 

[Farscape One]

I honestly did not watch the Flux season until recently, to catch myself up on DW since Jodie was leaving. (I was so unimpressed with Chibnall's episodes by that point that it was the only season I did not watch as it was airing.)

While it does seem a bit messy, if you watch it all in a row like I did, it actually works. Maybe if I watched them live, my opinion would be less of the season.

Truthfully, of the 3 specials, I like this one the most because of the callbacks to the classic era. But I also don't like that Jodie was a secondary character in her own final outing. In some ways, that's the defining trait of the Chibnall seasons.

My question now becomes since the universe is in shambles due to the Flux, is that going to be the main arc for The Doctor now? Fixing the universe? (If so, it certainly fits his chosen name.)

 

[Timelord Victorious]

I think the universe has already been retconned to back to to normal by quietly not talking about the flux anymore.
I mean, didn’t the Doctor defeat and destroy the entire Dalek race again at the end of Flux, only for them to show up in the very next episode?

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I'm still hazy on how Amy restored the universe the one time. I share the feeling they're going to quietly sweep the flux under the rug.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I'm still hazy on how Amy restored the universe the one time. I share the feeling they're going to quietly sweep the flux under the rug.

She restored it through the power of wishing

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

There seems to be a bit of a perspective clash between those who see the Doctor as the same person who looks different, and different people who are born in a weird way and "inherit" the Doctor's lifestyle. It was actually something that bothered me about "The End of Time," and it also comes through, here. I wonder if that might be why Capaldi isn't a fan of multi-Doctor stories, the conceit makes it very, very hard to pull off the "same person who looks different" idea.

It's not impossible, I think Moffat did a good job of it in "Day," but of the three revival showrunners, he also seems to be the one most committed to the idea that the Doctor is always the same person, and the differences are superficial, not fundamental (the end of "Deep Breath" when Capaldi is really arguing that he's still Smith, the flashback in "The Witch's Familiar" where the Doctor slips seamlessly between the First, Fourth, and Twelfth versions, the chapter in his novelization of "Day" where he goes through the Doctor's successive recollections of being all three incarnations in a scene, including, inexplicably, how he never got to be the one to deliver the witty line and it was always his past or future self, the Twelfth Doctor talking to himself-as-the-Fourth-Doctor, his flirtations with multi-Doctor stories that just included one incarnation, and so on). Chibnall seems to be way, way over in the other direction, with every Doctor being a totally new person who's a successor to the old one. RTD, it seems, goes back and forth depending on what elicits the most pathos, with the newly-regenerated Tenth and Fourteenth Doctors being acutely aware that their bodies have just warped themselves, while the pre-regeneration Tenth Doctor was extremely self-pitying about how regeneration "feels like dying" while simultaneously referring to his past, "dead" selves as "I" and his current, alive self as "some new man sauntering off."

That's a good point. RTD does seem to have a more complicated take on the matter, like an inbetween to Moffat and Chibnall, as Ten first comments that when he met Rose as Nine was "so long ago" but it might be that he just felt that way because of how it was for him a lifetime ago. And Ten certainly doesn't treat Rose any different, in fact he goes and expands on the feelings he had as Nine, so there's that.

Also, Ten always to be to me at least the most profoundly arrogant of all the incarnations, as he was the last Time Lord and had no one actually dictate to him any morality lessons or the like. Thus when his relatively shorter lifespan was in question, he reacted as someone who thinks of themselves as the high end of the world does, by being petulant and greedy, and that is the prism that I see his discussion with Wilf through. Also, both Moffat and Chibnall have on occassion treated death lightly, and certainly the Doctor's in Chibnall's case, but I'm thinking this guy in End of Time actually died a few times by now, ten in fact! So its not like its an irrational feeling for an incarnation to dislike the idea of death itself, especially if it means the end of one that is so universally adored like Ten was in RTD1. In any case, It'll be interesting to see how RTD approaches it from this point forward.

(So, yes, I did appreciate Moffat retconning that "I don't want to go," and probably all of his dread, was a subconscious memory of learning his next regeneration was the end of the line, and that it wasn't going to be pretty.)

I much prefer that take, myself, too. Like, here comes the real end, and if not, the final regeneration possibly. Some fans argued that Ten was subconsciously dreading of Trenzalore, because Eleven told him of it at the end of Day. That's a take.

But, a share: The last time I did a gigantic rewatch of NuWho, where I had included all Six/Mel audio stories, all audio/TV of Seven, all of Eight at the time, and all audios of the time for NuWho (not Chronicles), to me it seemed like "I don't want to go", apart from being RTD saying it, actually felt like his own reaction to allons-y.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

@Emperor-Tiberius

Thank you for that it made me think. I always thought one thing about 10 is that he he had the potential to have gone very dark but I think meeting Donna and traveling with her really did temper him a lot and stop those negative impulses that might have taken him one step or two beyond the edge into darkness. The only real glance I think we had of that was the whole "Timelord Victorious" moment and even he realized then he had gone too far.

 

[Tomalak]

I think the universe has already been retconned to back to to normal by quietly not talking about the flux anymore.
I mean, didn’t the Doctor defeat and destroy the entire Dalek race again at the end of Flux, only for them to show up in the very next episode?

Yeah, I really enjoyed Flux until the final, confusing episode, but it's obvious there will be no future reference to it.

Didn't the Master also wipe out half the universe in Logopolis? That was never mentioned again.

 

[The Knappos]

She restored it through the power of wishing

No, no, no. The Doctor restored the universe by flying the Pandorica into the heart of the exploding TARDIS. This trapped him on the wrong side of the crack.
Amy rescued him from the crack by remembering really hard.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

@Emperor-Tiberius

Thank you for that it made me think. I always thought one thing about 10 is that he he had the potential to have gone very dark but I think meeting Donna and traveling with her really did temper him a lot and stop those negative impulses that might have taken him one step or two beyond the edge into darkness. The only real glance I think we had of that was the whole "Timelord Victorious" moment and even he realized then he had gone too far.

His own hubris and arrogance was his own worst enemy. Its why after he says its not fair that he has to save Wilf in order to regenerate that he does unreservedly, because he does realize he actually HAS lived too long, not as Ten but in general, through ten bodies. His experience with TLV informed him at least on that regard.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

No, no, no. The Doctor restored the universe by flying the Pandorica into the heart of the exploding TARDIS. This trapped him on the wrong side of the crack.
Amy rescued him from the crack by remembering really hard.

Confusion defused

 

[Shazam!]

Amy rescued him from the crack by remembering really hard.

Remembrance of the Doctor

 

[Romulan_spy]

There seems to be a bit of a perspective clash between those who see the Doctor as the same person who looks different, and different people who are born in a weird way and "inherit" the Doctor's lifestyle. It was actually something that bothered me about "The End of Time," and it also comes through, here. I wonder if that might be why Capaldi isn't a fan of multi-Doctor stories, the conceit makes it very, very hard to pull off the "same person who looks different" idea.

It's not impossible, I think Moffat did a good job of it in "Day," but of the three revival showrunners, he also seems to be the one most committed to the idea that the Doctor is always the same person, and the differences are superficial, not fundamental (the end of "Deep Breath" when Capaldi is really arguing that he's still Smith, the flashback in "The Witch's Familiar" where the Doctor slips seamlessly between the First, Fourth, and Twelfth versions, the chapter in his novelization of "Day" where he goes through the Doctor's successive recollections of being all three incarnations in a scene, including, inexplicably, how he never got to be the one to deliver the witty line and it was always his past or future self, the Twelfth Doctor talking to himself-as-the-Fourth-Doctor, his flirtations with multi-Doctor stories that just included one incarnation, and so on). Chibnall seems to be way, way over in the other direction, with every Doctor being a totally new person who's a successor to the old one. RTD, it seems, goes back and forth depending on what elicits the most pathos, with the newly-regenerated Tenth and Fourteenth Doctors being acutely aware that their bodies have just warped themselves, while the pre-regeneration Tenth Doctor was extremely self-pitying about how regeneration "feels like dying" while simultaneously referring to his past, "dead" selves as "I" and his current, alive self as "some new man sauntering off."

(So, yes, I did appreciate Moffat retconning that "I don't want to go," and probably all of his dread, was a subconscious memory of learning his next regeneration was the end of the line, and that it wasn't going to be pretty.)

My interpretation is that at the moment of regeneration, the body is physically transformed into a new body but memories and some personality traits can "leak" through to the new body. So it sort of depends on your definition of a person. The doctor has a new body so in that sense, they are a new person in a physical sense, distinct from the previous person. But the doctor also retains memories and some personality from the previous person so they keep a connection to the previous person. So there is some continuity between persons. Perhaps, regeneration is like reincarnation: a past doctor is like a past life. And we might also think of "doctor" as like a legacy. The Doctor said it is like a promise. So at the moment or regeneration, the Doctor transforms into a new person that carries on the legacy of the Doctor. Hence they call themselves "the doctor". Perhaps that is why the "war doctor" was so shunned since he broke that legacy or promise to his previous versions.

I always found the 10th doctor's line about "feels like dying" and "some new man sauntering off." to be heartbreaking. The next doctor may have memories and some personality remnants but that total sum that made up THAT doctor is gone forever.

 

[Tomalak]

It's like the joined Trill, only without a symbiont.

The Doctor is Dax - retaining the same core traits, intellect, ingenuity, values and memories.

Each incarnation is like the host, and will bring their own unique personality and skills to the core essence.

So the Doctor is always the Doctor, but they'll never be exactly the same after a regeneration, so it is a "death" for that particular Doctor.

Until now!

 

[Haggis and tatties]

I think Dr Who is somewhat like the Bond franchise, as in even though the charactor is played by different actors through the years who each bring their own take on the charactor, the core of the doctor and Bond was that it was always the same charactor, well it was until recently with both franchises. lol

 

[Samurai8472]

I think Dr Who is somewhat like the Bond franchise, as in even though the charactor is played by different actors through the years who each bring their own take on the charactor, the core of the doctor and Bond was that it was always the same charactor, well it was until recently with both franchises. lol

Let's try to see the Doctor survive missiles raining down on them

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Let's try to see the Doctor survive missiles raining down on them

Five layers of plot armour should fix that

 

[Sketcher]

I think one of the things that Ten feared, and has to be jarring, is that once you regenerate you're ok with being different. Eleven didn't continue Ten's fear of not wanting to go. The change happened. He was right back to being the Doctor.

To paraphrase Ten - it feels like dying, everything we are (the personality and appearance) dies. It would be a terrifying prospect for any of us if we knew tomorrow we'd look and act different. But when tomorrow comes we'd be ok because, well, the new look and personality is who we are.

 

[Jayson1]

Tennant's doctor treating his change like death to me makes kind of sense when you think of the Curator talking about coming back, but only as some of the favorites. I think the Doctor likes some version of himself better than others. I think he or she has a fondness of his time as Tennant. Yet hates the time when he was the War Doctor as one example.