The Pegasus and phase cloak

[JesterFace]

I watched this episode quite recently and while I liked it it's somehow difficult to like it because, well, they're flying through solid rock.

I know it's science fiction and there's some weird explanation how that's possible but what could be your explanation on how that's possible?

Basically I'm asking here to save this episode for the next time, please, with our combined strength we can find an explanation that almost makes sense. =)

As far as I know the Romulan cloaking device is based on bending light but that's all I know about how it works and thinking it now, I should know more about it.

Am I overthinking this?

 

[Dukhat]

Am I overthinking this?

Yes.

The phase cloak was just a plot device for two stories about Geordi & Ro seemingly dying, and Riker's decision to turn Admiral Pressman in. The 'science' of it hardly mattered to the story.

 

[JesterFace]

The phase cloak was just a plot device for two stories about Geordi & Ro seemingly dying, and Riker's decision to turn Admiral Pressman in. The 'science' of it hardly mattered to the story.

I would like the phase cloak to have somekind of explanation on how it works even if it doesn't make complete scientific sense.
I think it hurts the story if there's some magical thing going on no one understands.

 

[Markonian]

Phase cloak is perfectly believable. All you see and touch may appear solid, but the distances between component atoms is like planets in a solar system. All you need to achieve phasing is to make your atoms "swerve" the atoms of the other object.

 

[NCC-73515]

Works just like transphase torpedoes - out of phase with the rest of the universe. That should make it impossible to see anything either, or walk on floors

 

[Markonian]

There’s a Trek novella that explains why they don’t fall through the floor, Star Trek: Titan: Absent Enemies.

 

[Qonundrum]

The atoms have x number of electrons orbiting around its nucleus (formed from neutrons and protons). Everything has to be in phase for stability to be achieved. Adjusting the phase, which then allows another structure to otherwise look like it's fitting in the same space...

...think of it not being too unlike temporal dithering that CRT interlaced television sets used to show a single 720x480 frame, even if two fields that are 720x240 are sent in rapid succession. You can't see the individual fields, but they are refreshed so fast that the resultant frame generated looks solid.

Or how the same CRT technology, or even LCD monitor technology, uses temporal dithering - activating two colors in rapid succession, using additive RGB tyo simulate a third color while the phosphors in question are still glowing. In a 1-second length of time, temporal dithering in a cheap LCD TN panel would send several bursts of red but alternating blue. What you see is purple. It's why graphic designers don't ever use TN panels. They aren't accurate for color whatsoever, using PVA, MVA, or IPS panel technologies instead.

A phasing cloaking technology both bends light or whatever to render an object invisible, while the phasing part changes the "frequency" of the atomic structure - not in a disharmonious way that renders one object to literally fall apart *plop* but allows said object to pass through others.

That said, the selective nature of the effect as demonstrated in the episode is up for grabs.

https://medium.com/hd-pro/progressive-vs-interlaced-e18e2924800e
^^interlaced TV frames example

 

[Oddish]

One question... once the Romulans entered the war, why didn't the Federation restart development on the phase-cloak? With both races fighting for their lives, why reject a devastating potential equalizer?

 

[DonIago]

One question... once the Romulans entered the war, why didn't the Federation restart development on the phase-cloak? With both races fighting for their lives, why reject a devastating potential equalizer?

Perhaps they did?

 

[Beard of Sisko]

The Federation agreeing to that treaty stipulation is one of the dumbest things they ever did. If the Klingons and Romulans can go sneaking around, there's no reason why Starfleet shouldn't be able to.

 

[NCC-73515]

Them joining the alliance doesn't nullify existing treaties

 

[DonIago]

The Federation agreeing to that treaty stipulation is one of the dumbest things they ever did. If the Klingons and Romulans can go sneaking around, there's no reason why Starfleet shouldn't be able to.

Considering we have no idea what the Romulans (the treaty was with them, the Klingons weren't involved) may have given up as part of the treaty, we can't really determine how "dumb" it was of the Federation to agree to it.

 

[somebuddyX]

Intelligent molecules so you don't fall through the floor etc and so forth and allows you to breathe. I love it because it's another example of the Romulans being beat at their own game once again by the Feds. They tried to make an interphase cloak two seasons ago and messed it up hard. The Feds perfected it like two decades ago. I also like the idea that it's some simple plug and play thing because there is already the line that Pegasus tech was used in the building of Enterprise so you can handwave that someone was hoping to be able to use cloaks in Starfleet ships one day and had it designed that way from the start.
The treaty of the cloak ban is a bit weird in universe, but it's the best story option out of a bunch of early fanon reasons for why they didn't use them, compared to moral reasons, radiation, other stuff. I think it works better as exploration of two sides of stealth technology. Even when the Defiant shows up with it's hot new bonus feature it immediately doesn't work because the Dominions had better tech.

 

[flandry84]

And with Starfleet being run by people of Adm.Clancy’s calibre we can only assume that further development of these sort of technologies went on unabated.

 

[Oddish]

Them joining the alliance doesn't nullify existing treaties

No, it doesn't. But with the threat of the Dominion hanging over the whole Quadrant, I would think that the Romulans would release them from it. Given that they had been trying to do the same thing ("The Next Phase"), they might have even proposed combining their research.

 

[Ragitsu]

If it prevented war for sixty-plus years...it ain't dumb. Plus, if you want to get super-dee-super technical, as far as we are aware, the Federation can still (continually) develop sensor technology to detect cloaked ships AND any device that allows traversal through solid matter without simultaneously rendering the user(s) invisible is fair game.

 

[Qonundrum]

Intelligent molecules so you don't fall through the floor etc and so forth and allows you to breathe. I love it because it's another example of the Romulans being beat at their own game once again by the Feds. They tried to make an interphase cloak two seasons ago and messed it up hard. The Feds perfected it like two decades ago.

Don't you love it when that happens? The Federation almost perfected it, except the power requirement was too strenuous. The device was ahead of its time.

That probably is a factor in why the Federation agreed to stop. If an official prequel actually filled in the gaps, the time and effort to think up all the nuances and resolve those without introducing new problems is a tall order.

As for intelligent molecules and atomic structure for each object involved - yeah, gaseous matter vs solid begs questions - especially the latter. How does the gravity plating work as opposed to rotational forces, like in 2001 and other movies that explore artificial gravity? This could explain, in a small part, how they can remain relatively attached - but still get pushed out through the exterior hull... not to mention, would phased matter outside be drawn to the same plating? (Or perhaps not, the field is localized and calibrated already.)

 

[Mojochi]

The Federation agreeing to that treaty stipulation is one of the dumbest things they ever did. If the Klingons and Romulans can go sneaking around, there's no reason why Starfleet shouldn't be able to.

Except Romulans & Klingons are empires, built by conquering & overtaking their respective domains. The Federation, by its very definition, exists instead by a reliance upon the ongoing member alliances of over 150 different groups, spanning 8000 lightyears.

Such an alliance is wholly dependent upon its members trusting one another, in many cases where that might have been difficult to achieve. It stands to reason that a bedrock principle of such an assemblage would have to be literal exposure. Armed Starfleet vessels employing concealment devices virtually flies in the face of everything they need to stand for, in order to exist at all.

They're the one group who have no place "Sneaking" anywhere, because their whole point is benevolence. The Federation must avoid concealment, in all manners, not because it kowtows to treaty demands or bargaining, but because if it doesn't it risks losing integrity within its itself altogether.

They're the guys who are supposed to literally have nothing to hide. It's why nearly everybody gets along with them. Hiding makes them seem more surreptitious, which undermines them from within imho. Suddenly, all those distant members start wondering. "What's with all the hiding?" "Are they gonna be hiding from us too?" & then it all unravels. It's a harder thing to be a union... & that is precisely why. It ironically requires transparency lol

 

[Ragitsu]

...it's almost as if Gene was onto something and the folks who were (and are) clamoring for the UFP to conceal the presence of their illicitly-designed doohickey missed the point.

 

[Mojochi]

Additionally, those that might consider it a necessary weapon, in keeping the balance of power, miss one pretty valid point, that by using a cloak, you are not nullifying the advantage a potential combatant has by using their own cloak. The risk to you from it is still the same. Plus, you are now escalating animosity by posing that risk to them now too. The primary point of Starfleet/The UFP is to DEescalate animosity with whomever they encounter out there. The tool you'd instead want to develop is cloak detection, & it seems guys like Geordi do pretty good at working along those lines. Pursue THAT!

I never understood why the Klingons, & their adherence to honor codes, would use it at all. Hiding is by definition not a forthright means of combat. Attacking the unsuspecting is not honorable. Where I'm from, we literally call it a sucker punch. All this would seem like fairly fundamental logic, when trying to establish nonaggression treaties with people you DON'T want as enemies forever. Maybe agree to not do things that would antagonize them? Even if they are already doing them, especially when there's no discernible advantage to your charter from it. In fact, as per my earlier post, it poses a potential destabilizing element within your own union

It's also an awesome tactic politically. You hold the moral high ground, thus bolstering your own union by everyone in it feeling they are the nobler, more righteous party.