The Pegasus and phase cloak

[Beard of Sisko]

...it's almost as if Gene was onto something and the folks who were (and are) clamoring for the UFP to conceal the presence of their illicitly-designed doohickey missed the point.

Gene's idealism often crossed into bleeding heart territory and this is a fine example of that.

Sorry but I don't hold Gene as a deity who must not be questioned.

 

[Beard of Sisko]

Except Romulans & Klingons are empires, built by conquering & overtaking their respective domains. The Federation, by its very definition, exists instead by a reliance upon the ongoing member alliances of over 150 different groups, spanning 8000 lightyears.

Such an alliance is wholly dependent upon its members trusting one another, in many cases where that might have been difficult to achieve. It stands to reason that a bedrock principle of such an assemblage would have to be literal exposure. Armed Starfleet vessels employing concealment devices virtually flies in the face of everything they need to stand for, in order to exist at all.

They're the one group who have no place "Sneaking" anywhere, because their whole point is benevolence. The Federation must avoid concealment, in all manners, not because it kowtows to treaty demands or bargaining, but because if it doesn't it risks losing integrity within its itself altogether.

They're the guys who are supposed to literally have nothing to hide. It's why nearly everybody gets along with them. Hiding makes them seem more surreptitious, which undermines them from within imho. Suddenly, all those distant members start wondering. "What's with all the hiding?" "Are they gonna be hiding from us too?" & then it all unravels. It's a harder thing to be a union... & that is precisely why. It ironically requires transparency lol

Integrity means little when dealing with adversaries who will do anything to win. Again, idealism sounds great on paper but has little merit in the real world.

 

[Ragitsu]

Sorry but I don't hold Gene as a deity who must not be questioned.

Nor do I. However, his idea of a future where humanity is striving to hold itself to an increasingly higher standard is something I can respect.

 

[somebuddyX]

Don't you love it when that happens? The Federation almost perfected it, except the power requirement was too strenuous. The device was ahead of its time.

That probably is a factor in why the Federation agreed to stop. If an official prequel actually filled in the gaps, the time and effort to think up all the nuances and resolve those without introducing new problems is a tall order.

As for intelligent molecules and atomic structure for each object involved - yeah, gaseous matter vs solid begs questions - especially the latter. How does the gravity plating work as opposed to rotational forces, like in 2001 and other movies that explore artificial gravity? This could explain, in a small part, how they can remain relatively attached - but still get pushed out through the exterior hull... not to mention, would phased matter outside be drawn to the same plating? (Or perhaps not, the field is localized and calibrated already.)

I'll be honest, I was just riffing on the Marvel comics Unstable Molecules, like a do whatever the plot needs it thing.

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[Markonian]

Integrity means little when dealing with adversaries who will do anything to win. Again, idealism sounds great on paper but has little merit in the real world.

I see where you are coming from. Star Trek generally portrays idealism as grounds for a practical solution, however. Like Janeway’s Alliance in the Void and Burnham defeating the Klingons instead of eradicating Qo’noS. Kirk’s ideals kept him from dealing a killing blow to Captain S’alath of the Gorn.

The only counter-example I can think of is Sisko’s little cheat to get the Romulans into the Dommi War in Pale Moonlight.

In real life, idealism can be the motivator that leads revolutions to success, or that effects changes within how societies or business operate.

 

[Oddish]

Integrity means little when dealing with adversaries who will do anything to win. Again, idealism sounds great on paper but has little merit in the real world.

That's why Section 31 exists. And why its existence is tacitly tolerated.

 

[Herbert]

Am I overthinking this?

This should be the official motto of The Trek BBS

 

[Ragitsu]

That's why Section 31 exists. And why its existence is tacitly tolerated.

Deep Dish Nine is the Anti-Trek and a prime example of wanting a cake while eating it too.

This should be the official motto of The Trek BBS

If it's not to your liking, abstain from participation. Gee...that sounds familiar.

 

[Oddish]

This should be the official motto of The Trek BBS

Overthink.
Overanalyze.
Over the top.

 

[Herbert]

If it's not to your liking, abstain from participation. Gee...that sounds familiar.

 

[Takeru]

Pressman should have developed a phase non-cloak, keep the ship visible and just phase it. Not a contract violation but still a massive tactical advantage. Who cares if you fly into a moon while visible for example? You're still intangible and in a moon.

 

[Oddish]

Pressman should have developed a phase non-cloak, keep the ship visible and just phase it. Not a contract violation but still a massive tactical advantage. Who cares if you fly into a moon while visible for example? You're still intangible and in a moon.

And easier to pull off, too.
Better yet, just put a few smaller phase inverters on photon torpedoes. While phased, they'll go through the enemy's shields, armor, and hull. Then they de-phase when they reach the warp core, or the bridge if you want to take the ship intact. And boom.

That may be how Janeway's trans-phasic torpedoes worked.

 

[Doug Otte]

I watched this episode quite recently and while I liked it it's somehow difficult to like it because, well, they're flying through solid rock.

I know it's science fiction and there's some weird explanation how that's possible but what could be your explanation on how that's possible?

Basically I'm asking here to save this episode for the next time, please, with our combined strength we can find an explanation that almost makes sense. =)

As far as I know the Romulan cloaking device is based on bending light but that's all I know about how it works and thinking it now, I should know more about it.

Am I overthinking this?

I always thought the "phase" meant they were being shifted to a parallel universe. In the case of the Pegasus, that universe didn't have the rock in that location. They move ahead x meters to reach a gap in the rock, then shift back to the "real" universe.

The same thing happened with LaForge and Ro, but of course it still begs the question of how they could see and hear the "real" universe.

 

[DonIago]

I always thought the "phase" meant they were being shifted to a parallel universe. In the case of the Pegasus, that universe didn't have the rock in that location. They move ahead x meters to reach a gap in the rock, then shift back to the "real" universe.

The same thing happened with LaForge and Ro, but of course it still begs the question of how they could see and hear the "real" universe.

I think it's kind of established that if you only go 'a little bit' out of of phase then you're still in phase enough to see/hear the world we're used to. The same thing happens in "Time's Arrow", IIRC.

 

[drt]

I never understood why the Klingons, & their adherence to honor codes, would use it at all. Hiding is by definition not a forthright means of combat.

It's because until TNG Klingons weren't honorable, but sneaky and duplicitous, so when Moore, et al retconned them for TNG, they had to handwave away their previous use of cloaking devices as being acceptable for reasons.

 

[Doug Otte]

I think it's kind of established that if you only go 'a little bit' out of of phase then you're still in phase enough to see/hear the world we're used to. The same thing happens in "Time's Arrow", IIRC.

If so, a physical medium connecting the two is required, to allow sound and light waves to reach them. But:
1) In 'The Next Phase' it only works one-way. The prime universe can't see or hear LaForge and Ro.
2) In 'The Pegasus', if it's the same type of phase, then there isn't a physical connection. Otherwise, the ship would have run into rock.

 

[DonIago]

If so, a physical medium connecting the two is required, to allow sound and light waves to reach them. But:
1) In 'The Next Phase' it only works one-way. The prime universe can't see or hear LaForge and Ro.
2) In 'The Pegasus', if it's the same type of phase, then there isn't a physical connection. Otherwise, the ship would have run into rock.

I'm not an expert on this kind of subject matter. Perhaps there's different types of phasing?