The Outcast

[Mr. Laser Beam]

@kirkfan: From what little we hear in the episode, neither parent actually carries the young. That's what the 'fibrous husks' are for. The parents inseminate that husk (and I would think that to do so, they'd have to have some kind of sex organs), but they don't actually carry the babies.

We don't know, specifically, whether the J'naii actually have romantic relationships and/or can have sex purely for recreation, although there's no real evidence (for either) that they can't.

 

[kirkfan]

@kirkfan: From what little we hear in the episode, neither parent actually carries the young. That's what the 'fibrous husks' are for. The parents inseminate that husk (and I would think that to do so, they'd have to have some kind of sex organs), but they don't actually carry the babies.

We don't know, specifically, whether the J'naii actually have romantic relationships and/or can have sex purely for recreation, although there's no real evidence (for either) that they can't.

And that's where it kinda falls apart at the seams. It's hard to be outraged or sympathetic about someone's plight when you have no idea what that plight is. Basically, we're told: These people are prejudiced about the thing and you should be outraged because it's bad to be prejudiced about the thing. but you never know what on earth the thing is or even if it exists at all!

 

[Tosk]

They are prejudiced against those born that are deemed to have been born "odd". That's enough for me to be outraged. I'm outraged at the way society treats gay or transgendered people. Same deal here.

 

[kirkfan]

They are prejudiced against those born that are deemed to have been born "odd". That's enough for me to be outraged. I'm outraged at the way society treats gay or transgendered people. Same deal here.

I am also outraged at the latter mostly because it's something real that I understand but that doesn't mean that I agree that it's the same deal here. As I said I need to understand what is going on. For instance, why would Soren stop loving Riker? What does that have to do with anything? Was their love based solely on a sexual attraction? Is that the message that we're supposed to get? And if so then why would she/he stop being attracted to Riker? Becoming both genders wouldn't he/she be attracted to both genders? I am sorry, but this story is nothing but holes.

 

[Tosk]

why would Soren stop loving Riker?

Soren feels differently at the end of the episode because she has been altered mentally.

 

[kirkfan]

why would Soren stop loving Riker?

Soren feels differently at the end of the episode because she has been altered mentally.

But that doesn't make sense. Her "alteration' wasn't about how she felt about people. Only about gender identification. What does that have to do with her love fore Riker?

 

[DWF]

While I do think Riker really loved Soren, he was willing to risk his career in Starfleet. His relationship comes off a typical television styled relationaship, one that's over when the ep. ends and rarely talked about in the future.

Still Riker's reactions are no different than Kirk's in The Apple or A Private Little War, But it rather disturbing that a society would use some kind of torture or mind control on a person if they want to leave that society. Still Soren needed to be returned to "normal" for them to end the relationship with Riker.

 

[kirkfan]

While I do think Riker really loved Soren, he was willing to risk his career in Starfleet. His relationship comes off a typical television styled relationaship, one that's over when the ep. ends and rarely talked about in the future.

Still Riker's reactions are no different than Kirk's in The Apple or A Private Little War, But it rather disturbing that a society would use some kind of torture or mind control on a person if they want to leave that society. Still Soren needed to be returned to "normal" for them to end the relationship with Riker.

One other thing that doesn't make sense about this story is that Soren knew from the start that the ONLY way she could have pursued this relationship with Riker beyond a few days was by remaining with him on the ship. So, why didn't she ask for asylum BEFORE she got in trouble with her people? In fact why didn't she ask for it the INSTANT Riker told her that her feelings were returned?

 

[DWF]

^^^I don't know maybe it was the speed of production and the need to get the story made in a hurry, as is often the case on television. However they missed a great opportunity for a A-Team reunion by not having Reg Barkley in the ep.

 

[kirkfan]

^^^I don't know maybe it was the speed of production and the need to get the story made in a hurry, as is often the case on television. However they missed a great opportunity for a A-Team reunion by not having Reg Barkley in the ep.

"a A-Team reunion"? What's that?

 

[DWF]

^^^I don't know maybe it was the speed of production and the need to get the story made in a hurry, as is often the case on television. However they missed a great opportunity for a A-Team reunion by not having Reg Barkley in the ep.

"a A-Team reunion"? What's that?

Melinda Culea and Dwight Schultz were both on the A-Team. You don't remember The A-Team?

 

[T'Girl]

But that doesn't make sense.

Yes it does, the beginnings of Soren's official problems began when she and Riker were observed kissing.

Her "alteration' wasn't about how she felt about people. Only about gender identification.

Apparently not, her feeling for Riker were gone, as were her being able to identify with her female gender.

Two birds, one stone.

 

[kirkfan]

^^^I don't know maybe it was the speed of production and the need to get the story made in a hurry, as is often the case on television. However they missed a great opportunity for a A-Team reunion by not having Reg Barkley in the ep.

"a A-Team reunion"? What's that?

Melinda Culea and Dwight Schultz were both on the A-Team. You don't remember The A-Team?

I see. I was trying to put what you said in the context of Startrek, and failed. Maybe with Mister T as a klingon then.

 

[kirkfan]

But that doesn't make sense.

Yes it does, the beginnings of Soren's official problems began when she and Riker were observed kissing.

Her "alteration' wasn't about how she felt about people. Only about gender identification.

Apparently not, her feeling for Riker were gone, as were her being able to identify with her female gender.

Two birds, one stone.

But that doesn't make sense. Love solely based on sexual attraction is not love, just lust. If you truly love someone, you won't stop loving them if an accident has altered their physicality, if you do then you weren't really in love to begin with. Plus even Riker wouldn't risk to be court martialled for mere physical attraction.

Just as I said from the start. This story doesn't make sense. It's just one weak plot element after another, all the way through.

 

[borgboy]

They are prejudiced against those born that are deemed to have been born "odd". That's enough for me to be outraged. I'm outraged at the way society treats gay or transgendered people. Same deal here.

I am also outraged at the latter mostly because it's something real that I understand but that doesn't mean that I agree that it's the same deal here. As I said I need to understand what is going on. For instance, why would Soren stop loving Riker? What does that have to do with anything? Was their love based solely on a sexual attraction? Is that the message that we're supposed to get? And if so then why would she/he stop being attracted to Riker? Becoming both genders wouldn't he/she be attracted to both genders? I am sorry, but this story is nothing but holes.

There are a lot of questions the episode doesn't provide, but my take on Soran's condition at the end is that because whatever made her different and gendered was taken away or suppressed, she wasn't capable of loving Riker, because her love for a man was part of what they took away from her.

Loving a man was gendered behavior to the J'naii. Being intimately involved with a gendered person was seen as gender behavior. Just because their brainwashing made her say or think she didn't love Riker doesn't mean that she didn't really love him before their conditioning.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Captain Obvious here:

The J'naii are an alien species, so it is impossible to fully understand their concept of genders.

That being said, it was obvious that they had made a cultural choice to suppress any biological variations that did not fit a predetermined standard. Those cultural choices appeared to be supported by the political, judicial, and even medical communities.

 

[kirkfan]

Given a context that ST aficionados are well acquainted with, I would never cite any ST story (and that includes all series and the movies) as championing LGBT rights. I think that's what I find the most disturbing when discussing this episode, that I personally think is below average for a TNG episode. For one thing it is quite dull. And the acting is so so. As if the actors didn't believe in what they were saying. Fortunately there are other episodes like Yesterday's Enterprise that more than make up for these small fiascos.

 

[DWF]

"a A-Team reunion"? What's that?

Melinda Culea and Dwight Schultz were both on the A-Team. You don't remember The A-Team?

I see. I was trying to put what you said in the context of Startrek, and failed. Maybe with Mister T as a klingon then.

That would be alot of fun.

 

[Tosk]

why would Soren stop loving Riker?

Soren feels differently at the end of the episode because she has been altered mentally.

But that doesn't make sense. Her "alteration' wasn't about how she felt about people.

Clearly it was.

The J'Naii evidently thought that an attachment to a gender binary was destructive and included that in the alteration.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Soren feels differently at the end of the episode because she has been altered mentally.

But that doesn't make sense. Her "alteration' wasn't about how she felt about people.

Clearly it was.

The J'Naii evidently thought that an attachment to a gender binary was destructive and included that in the alteration.

Correct, their entire culture was built on the concept of gender neutrality. It may have been that their species normally did not express binary genders, but each member DID have a "tendency", varying in intensity to identify as "primarily" male or female. To maintain a sense of control and to provide a legitimate reason for governmental power structure to exist, a series of edicts and restrictions had to be created and enforced so as to maintain the ideal of gender neutrality.