Still, this should be of no concern to Jake. No good father would impose his hang-ups on his progeny, it's only a weak person who would do that. Let's say Sisko was arachnophobic, would you find it acceptable if he tried to pass that on to Jake?
The Outcast
- Thread starter Taelon
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Still, this should be of no concern to Jake. No good father would impose his hang-ups on his progeny, it's only a weak person who would do that. Let's say Sisko was arachnophobic, would you find it acceptable if he tried to pass that on to Jake?
^ Let's not be so harsh towards Sisko, he's only human as well. Nobody is perfect and even the "best" of people have fallacies.
Ummm - guys - this IS the TNG forum.
Kind of surprising, the relationship of Ben and Jake Sisko was one of the best father- son depictions on TV. Certainly the best on Star Trek.
Kind of surprising, the relationship of Ben and Jake Sisko was one of the best father- son depictions on TV. Certainly the best on Star Trek.
Let's not lose sight that opinions are not facts. Some people likely think the way you do as they are entitled to but others have differing points of view.
You're one to talk. A lot of what you say "if you're not a man by 21 you never will" or "a good father would never do that" is phrased like facts when its really opinions and pretty rigid ones at that imho.
Back on topic:
I also think Outcast was more about gender and gender identity than it was about homo- or heterosexuality. However even so I found it quite clunky, a bit like Angel One where the supposedly "normal situation" is turned on its head.
Opinions that I stand firmly by:
As Sisko's father could have said: "There is a time in a man's life when he should stop being dependent on his father and start thinking for himself, that time is before he hits twenty one."
Second, only a weakling would pass his intimate fears on his children.
No modern woman could stand being treated like the men on Angel One. They repeat that idiocy in DS9's episode Sanctuary, with women having male harems.
Men in Earth's past acted exactly like the women in Sanctuary. I thought it was a mildly interesting look at institutionalized sexism. That's only a minor detail in the episode though.
Both Angel One and Sanctuary do have dominant women and submissive men as part of an alien race. So what? Different social structures would develop in alien society. We see other races, such as the Bajorans who seem to be very much equal in the way men and women live. I never got the impression there was much division in gender roles. Any job could be a man or woman's job and neither gender seemed to be treated differently in society. A woman or man could be a military leader, a religious leader, a teacher or a miner.
For what it's worth, I thought we saw some interesting issues in Cardassian society, where women are considered better suited to the sciences and men to the military. I expect there are plenty of people in their society who don't fit their expectations.
Both Angel One and Sanctuary do have dominant women and submissive men as part of an alien race. So what? Different social structures would develop in alien society. We see other races, such as the Bajorans who seem to be very much equal in the way men and women live. I never got the impression there was much division in gender roles. Any job could be a man or woman's job and neither gender seemed to be treated differently in society. A woman or man could be a military leader, a religious leader, a teacher or a miner.
For what it's worth, I thought we saw some interesting issues in Cardassian society, where women are considered better suited to the sciences and men to the military. I expect there are plenty of people in their society who don't fit their expectations.
An interesting contrast to the Federation and Starfleet, for all the presumption of enlightenment the majority of the observed authority figures are still male. Yes there are some females present in the upper levels, but the captains and admirals are primarily male.
How many female Federation presidents did we see or hear of?
Funny how someone would get riled up over the treatment of men in Angel One and not be upset over how the Klingons constantly switch between egalitarian and male chauvinist archetypes the next. Or the multitude of other races that seem to be ruled by men. Does the insane levels of patriarchy also bother you in nearly every fantasy show? Or even in TOS?
Remember that Bajor used to have a strict caste system though, and if not for Sisko's intervention they may have gone back to it.
"Riled up" may be too strong a term, though. "Puzzled" would be more accurate, IMO.
The episode works perfectly regardless of the gender of the actor.
It is a very powerful statement on forced conformity. The ending is tragic and disturbing. Who cares what the actors gender was.
It was an gender neutral person who felt association with female identity played by a female.
Arguing over if TNG was brave enough is foolish.
It accomplishes what it was designed to do.
entertain and make you think.
It is a very powerful statement on forced conformity. The ending is tragic and disturbing. Who cares what the actors gender was.
It was an gender neutral person who felt association with female identity played by a female.
Arguing over if TNG was brave enough is foolish.
It accomplishes what it was designed to do.
entertain and make you think.
Except that the idea that there is such a thing as a successful treatment of sexual deviance is a myth maintained by bigots. The episode (unwittingly) plays into those people's hands.
ARE YOU SERIOUS?
You think episode makes the point purposefully or by accident that the "treatment' works?
Wow, are you confused. ANYBODY can see and it is plainly clear that she has been brainwashed and turned into robot concerning her feelings about gender.
How you could think that anybody could watch that and think---"Oh, homosexuals CAN be cured!"--is just bizarre
The ending is ambivalent. She doesn't look perturbed at all. She's even sorry for Riker that he feels this way about her, but not in a robotic or hysterical way. In the way of someone who is just not interested. You only say that she doesn't look normal because you need to believe that but she does.
"The ending is ambivalent."
Wow, just wow.
When I said robotic--I didn't mean that she was walking and moving like a robot--I meant she is CLEARLY been reprogramed--like a machine is programed.
It's obvious--not in any way ambivalent--unless there is some odd reason a person couldn't see that fact.
Wow, just wow.
When I said robotic--I didn't mean that she was walking and moving like a robot--I meant she is CLEARLY been reprogramed--like a machine is programed.
It's obvious--not in any way ambivalent--unless there is some odd reason a person couldn't see that fact.
The episode is definitely portraying this outcome as a tragedy, I think that part is not ambiguous. So regardless of a treatment/mindwipe/labotomy being successful (by a fictional alien technology), we're supposed to be rooting for the enterprise crew that has put everything on the line to rescue the character rather than the clearly evil alien government.
"we're supposed to be", huh? And wouldn't that make us... I don't know... like robots!
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