The Outcast and the limits of metaphors

[Farscape One]

Regarding "The Host", I wonder if the ending is too much the focus against the rest of the story, which is Crusher fighting her feelings for Odan while he is merged with Riker. It isn't until much later that she gives in to those feelings, but I wonder if there is a sense of regret because while Odan was the person, it was Riker's body... someone she knew for years by this point. That had to be strange.

Casting a woman as the latest Odan host was probably the easiest way to get the point across, because I honestly couldn't do any better than Beverly did. She was right, though... how long would this host live and who will be the next one? It's a valid question, and probably a lot of the issues would have never become issues had Odan been honest with her from the start about his nature. If Odan told her about their joined nature, Beverly would have gone in fully informed and she might have been able to adjust.

On the other hand, if she accepted the nature up front and the ending happened the same way, then I can see her looking pretty badly at the end. It's almost a lose-lose choice for her character.


Regarding Dax and other symbiotes, I think of them as more like Pilots from FARSCAPE. They merge with Leviathans to be in space and simply explore. They don't care about things like gender... they just want to experience things. Symbiotes, to me, fall exactly in that category... even dialogue like 'the host is only a link in a chain' reflects this. Male, female, androgynous, etc... not even part of the equation.

 

[Oddish]

It's almost a page for page remake of Half A Life, except in that one, the character ultimately chooses to agree with the objectionable thing we fought throughout

Difference between "The Outcast" and "Half a Life" is that what was done to Soren was never presented as anything but the hateful and disgusting violation that it was. Half a Life actually seemed to condone the guy's (forgot his name) death at the end. That's why I hate that episode so passionately. Contrastingly, I don't enjoy watching the ending of "The Outcast", but I recognize that it was necessary to make its point.

You can slam them for making the whole thing stupidly imho, but there really was no malice of forethought beyond just being too chicken**** to tell a story about a gay relationship, which was by & large not a unique condition at the time.

Remember also that this was going to feature actual kissing... the first same-sex kiss on TV didn't occur until 1991. So this would have been a seriously groundbreaking event. Maybe TPTB weren't quite bold enough for that.

Trill Simbionts may reproduce in a similar fashion?

Urghhh... pretty sure lore says they breed in the underground pools, which suggests three possibilities:
1. They have a specific sex of their own, but consider it irrelevant: they go with whatever the host is.
2. They reproduce sexually, but they're hermaphroditic.
3. They reproduce asexually, via binary fission or something similar.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Urghhh... pretty sure lore says they breed in the underground pools, which suggests three possibilities:

I suspected that that android was a massive pervert.

 

[NCC-73515]

^Agreed, and that's why Crusher's line in "The Host" irked me as well: "Perhaps it is a human failing, but we are not accustomed to these kinds of changes. I can't keep up. How long will you have this host? What would the next one be? I can't live with that kind of uncertainty. Perhaps, someday, our ability to love won't be so limited."

I'm not saying I necessarily could have handled it any better than she did, but maybe she should try speaking for herself instead of all humanity.

Apparently it's okay for there to be non-heteronormative individuals in Trek as long as it's not humans.

Most people probably are attracted to the body as well, not just the personality. I know someone who doesn't care much about bodies cause he's sapiosexual, but even he identifies as gay and has his body preferences. That's something they could've done in Disco: Gray changes his new body a lot, not just one mole removal, and Adira realizes the new body isn't as attractive anymore to them. What is love? How relevant is physical attraction? That could've been the topic in addition to slowly moving forward to the 10C.

That's nice. Though, while I'm sure it wasn't your intent, and I'm definitely not implying anything as to who you are, my brain just flashed to, "I can't be homophobic; I know two LGBT people!"

I mean, what do you want me to say to that? We probably all do, but if for every two people who found it wonderful, 50 people found it awful, then I think that's still something that should be concerning.

Heck, even if everyone in this thread thought the episode was wonderful, that would still be an extremely small sample size.

And that's the thing: Some people understood the message one way and approved, others understood it a different way and hate it. Many are probably between such extremes. No poll exists afaik, but we should simply accept that not everyone who is part of the intended community this episode tried to address felt bad about it. Laudable effort, good enough for the time it was made, is what I'd call it.

 

[T'Bonz]

P.S. - Very few people actually know why they are angry, they just take it out on the first thing they can and think that is the reason. You attack the symptom rather than the problem. Hold up that mirror and look deeper. Cheers

@MarcusTay

1) I've had to remove the avatar as our Google overlords would not permit it. Doesn't bother me, but Google is strict about what we use as avatars and what we post.

2) Since I'm in here, *don't* tell people why they're angry or how they feel, unless you're a mind reader. It's a bit insulting and might well be considered trolling.

 

[Skipper]

I meant Jadzia Dax -- though "gay" isn't an accurate description of her, either. We could call her "bi," I guess, but I'm not sure even that's right; the presence and influence of the symbiont complicates the issue.

As far as we know, their society may not even have the concept of different sexual orientations and therefore it is useless to define them in one way or another. However I agree, Trill don't matter.

 

[Trekker09]

One thing “The Host” always reminds me of, is the irony of Gates McFadden being 7 months pregnant at the time…she was the one with a symbiont
Seriously, about “The Outcast” I’d say that Jeri Taylor’s mistake was not in being too metaphorical, but in making Riker the subject of the romance…it severely limited how much they could alter his personality.
What if Taylor’s script had been about a visiting gay person coming aboard the ship, falling in love with a gay crewmember and, after overcoming some obstacle, living happily ever after…would that have been better as their “message” episode?

 

[Guy Gardener]

^Agreed, and that's why Crusher's line in "The Host" irked me as well: "Perhaps it is a human failing, but we are not accustomed to these kinds of changes. I can't keep up. How long will you have this host? What would the next one be? I can't live with that kind of uncertainty. Perhaps, someday, our ability to love won't be so limited."

I'm not saying I necessarily could have handled it any better than she did, but maybe she should try speaking for herself instead of all humanity.

Apparently it's okay for there to be non-heteronormative individuals in Trek as long as it's not humans.

If Beverly truly wanted to keep on keeping on, then she probably should have kept on banging Riker, and maybe she did?

Wil might have even let her call him Odan the first 5 times.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

What if Taylor’s script had been about a visiting gay person coming aboard the ship, falling in love with a gay crewmember and, after overcoming some obstacle, living happily ever after…would that have been better as their “message” episode?

Maybe, but Berman would never have allowed a gay character on his show.

 

[Brennyren]

In seven years of TNG, there were never even any implied-gay extras (same-sex couples holding hands in the background). Nor any suggestion of a crewmember with a same-sex partner. ("Ensign Smith is worried about his husband.") Ditto for DS9, VOY, and ENT.

I get that it was the 90s, though that reason starts to show strain when we get to ENT and the mid-00s. It's still an impressive level of cowardice, that's all.

 

[DonIago]

Seriously, about “The Outcast” I’d say that Jeri Taylor’s mistake was not in being too metaphorical, but in making Riker the subject of the romance…it severely limited how much they could alter his personality.
What if Taylor’s script had been about a visiting gay person coming aboard the ship, falling in love with a gay crewmember and, after overcoming some obstacle, living happily ever after…would that have been better as their “message” episode?

Interesting that you say this...I was reading up a bit more on what other sites had to say about this episode, and one commentator suggested that it might have been more successful if it had been Barclay instead of Riker. They wouldn't have had to revisit the situation per se because Barclay never got that kind of screen time, and since Barclay's sexuality was less of a defining character trait it might have polarized audiences less (assuming that was even really a valid concern to begin with, which I'm skeptical about, but moving on...).

Additionally, while I always attributed Barclay's mannerisms to social anxiety and potentially high-functioning autism, if he was also struggling with his sexual orientation and feared reasonably or unreasonably not being accepted (I can't recall whether Barclay's phobias were an established trait at this point), it would have been another reason for his awkwardness, and one that would be very relatable to closeted individuals.

 

[Guy Gardener]

In seven years of TNG, there were never even any implied-gay extras (same-sex couples holding hands in the background). Nor any suggestion of a crewmember with a same-sex partner. ("Ensign Smith is worried about his husband.") Ditto for DS9, VOY, and ENT.

I get that it was the 90s, though that reason starts to show strain when we get to ENT and the mid-00s. It's still an impressive level of cowardice, that's all.

What was with the men in skirts then?

Isn't it possible that all those people were transitioning?

Interesting that you say this...I was reading up a bit more on what other sites had to say about this episode, and one commentator suggested that it might have been more successful if it had been Barclay instead of Riker. They wouldn't have had to revisit the situation per se because Barclay never got that kind of screen time, and since Barclay's sexuality was less of a defining character trait it might have polarized audiences less (assuming that was even really a valid concern to begin with, which I'm skeptical about, but moving on...).

Additionally, while I always attributed Barclay's mannerisms to social anxiety and potentially high-functioning autism, if he was also struggling with his sexual orientation and feared reasonably or unreasonably not being accepted (I can't recall whether Barclay's phobias were an established trait at this point), it would have been another reason for his awkwardness, and one that would be very relatable to closeted individuals.

If Barclay were Gay, then that reverses his holoabuse of his friends.

Deanna was just a spirit of fertility and nature.

Meanwhile Reg wanted a threesome with his musketeers, and Riker was sexier and easier to plow if he was a foot shorter.

 

[NCC-73515]

In seven years of TNG, there were never even any implied-gay extras (same-sex couples holding hands in the background). Nor any suggestion of a crewmember with a same-sex partner. ("Ensign Smith is worried about his husband.") Ditto for DS9, VOY, and ENT.

I get that it was the 90s, though that reason starts to show strain when we get to ENT and the mid-00s. It's still an impressive level of cowardice, that's all.

A Bolian on DS9 had a co-husband (which became a side-wife in the German version )

 

[Brennyren]

A Bolian on DS9 had a co-husband

I didn't know about that. Point to DS9!

which became a side-wife in the German version )

....except in German-speaking countries, apparently.

 

[Skipper]

A Bolian on DS9 had a co-husband (which became a side-wife in the German version )

Well, I suppose it was played for laughs. I really doubt that they were advocating polyamorous extended families' rights

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, I suppose it was played for laughs. I really doubt that they were advocating polyamorous extended families' rights

Four people to an Andorian marriage, since the Offspring.

 

[Oddish]

Bolian on DS9 had a co-husband (which became a side-wife in the German version )

So polygamy is fine in Germany, but polyandry isn't. Oooo-kay...

Well, I suppose it was played for laughs. I really doubt that they were advocating polyamorous extended families' rights

Four people to an Andorian marriage, since the Offspring.

Probably just demonstrating that while humans typically aren't polyamorous, other cultures might be.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Probably just demonstrating that while humans typically aren't polyamorous, other cultures might be.

The sad unimaginative hetero-normative argument against the fact I issued, is that two straight couples get married at the same time in the same place, but they do not go home together to share their wives and drink gin.

Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice (1969)

Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice (1973) (TV Series)

 

[dupersuper]

It wasn't too early, no. In 1971, All in the Family's bigoted Archie Bunker discovered an old buddy was gay. In 1977, Soap was the first American series to debut a gay regular character, Jodie Dallas, who later would consider gender reassignment. 1981's Dynasty featured a gay recurring character, Steven Colby, who eventually ended up in a stable relationship with another man. In 1992, thirtysomething showed two male characters in bed together. Those are just commercial-TV examples; PBS and cable had done much more by the time "The Outcast" aired.

There was also the gay couple who got married in Northern Exposure, a lesbian kiss in Picket Fences, several Scott Thompson bits in Kids in the Hall, and gay/trans guest and recurring characters aplenty in Night Court, Barney Miller, MASH, WKRP, Cheers, Golden Girls...Hell, Maggie Sawyer was introduced in the Superman comic books in 1987. When she told Superman her backstory in 1988 - one that included losing custody of her child to her ex-husband (a man she married before coming to terms with her sexuality), Superman - again in 1988 - thought to himself how backwards it was to lose custody of a child for such a reason "in this day and age".

In point of fact, this is a trait inherent in nearly all the women of the Mirror Universe (Dax, Ezri, and Leeta), with the sole exception being Jennifer Sisko.

When was mirror Dax shown to be bi?

 

[Trekker09]

I think it was "The Emperor's New Cloak" when Ezri and Kira embrace.
Seems like the mirror universe lesbian kissing was not meant to be taken seriously, but I'd still say that Jadzia kissing her former wife Lenara in "Rejoined" was actually a step forward in openness about homosexuality on Trek. It was all about tenderness, understanding and a committed relationship.
If woman-woman sexuality was just indulging the male gaze, they'd have found a way to get it on TOS - !